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2012-11-24 10:44 PM

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Subject: should I say or do something???

I have neighbours up the street, my daughter is friends with their daughter and they have a younger daughter who is 4.  The kids all get on well and we socialise with the parents often.

They babysit, we babysit etc.  The guy is even doing our renovation work on our house.

I don't always think they make the best judgement calls with parenting but not enough to cause a problem ....until yesterday.

Yesterday the mum and the kids came over to use our pool on a lovely hot day.  I noticed the youngest had a large bruise on her thigh, so I asked her mum how on earth she did it.

She said the dad did it when he hit her the other night...

Now I know they spank their kids and I'm not against that, I don't smack my daughter because I've not had to, she responds so much better to discipline of removing toys /TV/Computer privileges etc.

The mum was pretty upset and wasn't talking to dad.

I don't believe that he would deliberatly harm the kids but if the daugher says something at her daycare about the bruise they could get in all sorts of trouble.

Should we have a chat with him and just say, lighten up a bit?  I would hate them to lose their kids just coz he couldn't control his temper one day.

 



2012-11-24 11:12 PM
in reply to: #4508945

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Subject: RE: should I say or do something???
this is a tough one. you talking to him will do absolutely nothing and likely harm the relationship.i will say that calling cps is scary, but it absolutely does not mean the kids will be taken away. they will investigate, recommend counseling or whatever and make sure things don't get out of hand. its what they do as a profession, so they will be able to identify if there is an issue, if there is not or if there are much bigger issues. sorry for the formatting and spelling,, I'm typing on my phone
2012-11-24 11:20 PM
in reply to: #4508945

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Subject: RE: should I say or do something???

At this point, I would just be alert.  The father may have meant to spank and missed - or there may be other explanations as well.  By staying friends and keeping a good relationship, you can be around to observe any sure signs of abuse.

Also, if mom was upset, let her try to resolve it first, parent to parent.

Again, this is all just my opinion.

2012-11-24 11:30 PM
in reply to: #4508945

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Subject: RE: should I say or do something???

...my instinct is to watch and wait.   I think he just got soooo mad at the little one who was being a royal pain in the azz. 

The good thing is the mum will always tell me when he's gone off his head a bit!  He does have a temper i've seen it - not pretty.  Scares the cr*p out of my daughter she wouldn't ever misbehave in his presence!

I just think it's a real shame that your kids are scared of you.  And today the two girls started physically bullying my daughter, first time I'd seen that.  and that's probably because their role model uses physical violence to get his way.

2012-11-25 12:00 AM
in reply to: #4508945

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Subject: RE: should I say or do something???

In the eyes of the law, injury is abuse.  

I'm good with that definition.

I spanked my kids, but never came close to a bruise....I would be horrified if I bruised one of my kids.

If it were me, I'd report it and let the authorities sort it out.

2012-11-25 12:06 AM
in reply to: #4508990

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Subject: RE: should I say or do something???
Left Brain - 2012-11-25 5:00 PM

In the eyes of the law, injury is abuse.  

I'm good with that definition.

I spanked my kids, but never came close to a bruise....I would be horrified if I bruised one of my kids.

If it were me, I'd report it and let the authorities sort it out.

I think my first step will be to speak to the teacher in school.  Just voice my concern.  I know for a fact this is the first time he's gone that far.

My daughter is sleeping over at their place on Tuesday.  Kinda less than comfortable than I would usually be.



2012-11-25 12:12 AM
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Subject: RE: should I say or do something???
dp, sorry

Edited by Left Brain 2012-11-25 12:13 AM
2012-11-25 12:12 AM
in reply to: #4508994

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Subject: RE: should I say or do something???
jobaxas - 2012-11-25 12:06 AM
Left Brain - 2012-11-25 5:00 PM

In the eyes of the law, injury is abuse.  

I'm good with that definition.

I spanked my kids, but never came close to a bruise....I would be horrified if I bruised one of my kids.

If it were me, I'd report it and let the authorities sort it out.

I think my first step will be to speak to the teacher in school.  Just voice my concern.  I know for a fact this is the first time he's gone that far.

My daughter is sleeping over at their place on Tuesday.  Kinda less than comfortable than I would usually be.

I have no idea what the law is in Australia...teachers here are "mandated reporters"......and they would report bruising such as you describe to the Division of Family Services.  The DFS would make a visit to the home, with the Police.  

In my world, and in my view, if you strike a child to the point of injury it's abuse.  

2012-11-25 12:15 AM
in reply to: #4508998

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Subject: RE: should I say or do something???
Left Brain - 2012-11-25 5:12 PM
jobaxas - 2012-11-25 12:06 AM
Left Brain - 2012-11-25 5:00 PM

In the eyes of the law, injury is abuse.  

I'm good with that definition.

I spanked my kids, but never came close to a bruise....I would be horrified if I bruised one of my kids.

If it were me, I'd report it and let the authorities sort it out.

I think my first step will be to speak to the teacher in school.  Just voice my concern.  I know for a fact this is the first time he's gone that far.

My daughter is sleeping over at their place on Tuesday.  Kinda less than comfortable than I would usually be.

I have no idea what the law is in Australia...teachers here are "mandated reporters"......and they would report bruising such as you describe to the Division of Family Services.  The DFS would make a visit to the home, with the Police.  

In my world, and in my view, if you strike a child to the point of injury it's abuse.  

It's an awkward one for sure...but if I'm honest the child's welfare is the most important thing here, not the guy who's building my house, not my friendship and drinking partner his wife.  I will sleep on it and make a decision in the morning.

2012-11-25 7:11 AM
in reply to: #4508945

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Subject: RE: should I say or do something???
I know my kids would not be spending the night over there anymore. Sorry, but I don't see room to give this guy slack. If he loses control enough to leave a large bruise on a 4 year old, he needs to answer for it. What if he hits her higher and harder next time? You willing to give this guy an opportunity to exercise any kind of judgement when dealing with your kids?
2012-11-25 7:31 AM
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Subject: RE: should I say or do something???

mdg2003 - 2012-11-25 8:11 AM I know my kids would not be spending the night over there anymore. Sorry, but I don't see room to give this guy slack. If he loses control enough to leave a large bruise on a 4 year old, he needs to answer for it. What if he hits her higher and harder next time? You willing to give this guy an opportunity to exercise any kind of judgement when dealing with your kids?

This. I would never trust my kids around him. I am not sure I'd even babysit them anymore. Suppose someone else notices and he tries to cover himself by lying and saying it happened at your house? If she told you that he hit her, she is already complicit in the abuse.

Assuming it was purposeful, how the hell could anyone hit a 4 year old hard enough to leave a bruise? I think I swatted my kids maybe twice on their butts the entire time they were little,

There are days I'd like to strangle my 16-year old son, but given his years of TKD and now MMA, I'm the one most likely to get the bruises.



2012-11-25 7:43 AM
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Subject: RE: should I say or do something???

tuwood - 2012-11-25 12:12 AM this is a tough one. you talking to him will do absolutely nothing and likely harm the relationship.i will say that calling cps is scary, but it absolutely does not mean the kids will be taken away. they will investigate, recommend counseling or whatever and make sure things don't get out of hand. its what they do as a profession, so they will be able to identify if there is an issue, if there is not or if there are much bigger issues. sorry for the formatting and spelling,, I'm typing on my phone

x2. You can make an anonymous call to CYS or the police. They will investigate, they may continue to check up on the family, and if needed, they will try to get services in place (anger management, or parenting skills, or whatever). 

Take the long view - if you do nothing, and no one else does anything to intervene, when the kid gets older, there are real risks of more serious injuries, How would future you feel if the kid got a broken bone, and you were left wondering what REALLY happened?

2012-11-25 8:08 AM
in reply to: #4508965

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Subject: RE: should I say or do something???
jobaxas - 2012-11-24 11:30 PM

...my instinct is to watch and wait.   I think he just got soooo mad at the little one who was being a royal pain in the azz. 

The good thing is the mum will always tell me when he's gone off his head a bit!  He does have a temper i've seen it - not pretty...

. Regarding the first statement, does that REALLY still make it right????!!!! REALLY??!! Regarding the second and third statement, sounds like red flags to me!
2012-11-25 8:08 AM
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Subject: RE: should I say or do something???
BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-11-25 7:31 AM

mdg2003 - 2012-11-25 8:11 AM I know my kids would not be spending the night over there anymore. Sorry, but I don't see room to give this guy slack. If he loses control enough to leave a large bruise on a 4 year old, he needs to answer for it. What if he hits her higher and harder next time? You willing to give this guy an opportunity to exercise any kind of judgement when dealing with your kids?

This. I would never trust my kids around him. I am not sure I'd even babysit them anymore. Suppose someone else notices and he tries to cover himself by lying and saying it happened at your house? If she told you that he hit her, she is already complicit in the abuse.

I agree with Brian.

2012-11-25 8:27 AM
in reply to: #4508945

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Subject: RE: should I say or do something???

I was thinking about this last night when I was going to bed.  I spanked my kids and it has never left a bruise.  In fact can you even imagine how hard you'd have to spank/hit a kid in order to leave a bruise?  Try hitting your own leg or butt to see how hard you'd have to hit to make a bruise.

Per the others, I strongly recommend reporting the abuse to the police.  Not only is there physical abuse, but the psychological abuse that goes along with an angry parent will have life long impact on those children.  They will likely grow up being angry and abuseful towards those around them because that's what is modeled for them.  If the Dad gets some help he can turn the boat around.

2012-11-25 8:28 AM
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Subject: RE: should I say or do something???
I would have to do something to make sure that it didn't occur again. A bruise on a child is an indication of bigger problems. You mentioned temper and you mentioned drinking. I am not getting down on drinking, but my instinct is to wonder if he drinks and it has an impact on how he handles his children when under the influence. It's a very common situation. Whether he drinks, or not, though - he should never strike a child with a force that results in bruising. The reality of this situation is that it will probably happen again unless someone intervenes on behalf of the child. I have no doubt that the father feels terrible, but it is apparent that he lacks control with his discipline. Combining this with his temper, he is a perfect storm for this to occur again.

He is not a bad person; he is a person who needs help. More than that, this is a child that needs help. The children acting out aggressively towards your child is what you suspect - a clear sign of what is going on within their home. They are young, though, and it can be stopped. But only if someone is willing to potentially sacrifice a friendship for the chance of helping a family become honest about abuse, the potential for it to occur again, and the need for help.

When it comes to abuse, when you see something on a child it is usually the tip of the iceberg. I would go to the authorities. You don't want to have to say, "man, I should have done something earlier." Now is the time. That child is defenseless without adult help.

I feel for you, and for the family. I hope they get help now before it gets worse.

Edited by sulross 2012-11-25 8:30 AM


2012-11-25 12:33 PM
in reply to: #4508945

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Subject: RE: should I say or do something???
Thanks guys I think I knew the answer. I'm onto it I'm phoning the daycare centre today to speak to the carers there. Anonymous call to CPS will follow if necessary but I'm the only one who knows so hardly anonymous. I will be the next bruised one on the street! Love honesty of kids my daughter said he had smacked the older one so hard he broke the skin.Unacceptable.

Edited by jobaxas 2012-11-25 12:38 PM
2012-11-25 12:47 PM
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Subject: RE: should I say or do something???
Make the call. My wife is a social worked for child services. She currently supervises a whole county department for adoption, but stared as a case worker who went on calls like this.

A report does not mean he will lose his kids. A judge has to order that, based on evidence collected. I don't know your county agency or state laws, but a call to the local agency could also get them services that help this not to happen again and keep a family intact.

You do not know for a fact that is the first time. You may be right, and reason to believe it. But you cannot know for certain. What o do know for certain is that this happened at least once.

And if you fear him and the repurcussions, imagine being 4.

One of the most awkward things I've ever done is escort a woman to a safe house for domestic violence. I was shocked initially, and thought I knew he husband well. We were pretty close for my professional relationship. But I coulnd't hesitate to advocate for her, no matter how it changed my relationship with him.

Child is 4. No grey area here. Call.

2012-11-25 1:31 PM
in reply to: #4509269

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Subject: RE: should I say or do something???
TheClaaaw - 2012-11-26 5:47 AMMake the call. My wife is a social worked for child services. She currently supervises a whole county department for adoption, but stared as a case worker who went on calls like this.

A report does not mean he will lose his kids. A judge has to order that, based on evidence collected. I don't know your county agency or state laws, but a call to the local agency could also get them services that help this not to happen again and keep a family intact.

You do not know for a fact that is the first time. You may be right, and reason to believe it. But you cannot know for certain. What o do know for certain is that this happened at least once.

And if you fear him and the repurcussions, imagine being 4.

One of the most awkward things I've ever done is escort a woman to a safe house for domestic violence. I was shocked initially, and thought I knew he husband well. We were pretty close for my professional relationship. But I coulnd't hesitate to advocate for her, no matter how it changed my relationship with him.

Child is 4. No grey area here. Call.

Thanks for that. I looked at it objectively today. If I was reading this post from another person I'd say with no hesitation report it. Absolutely. So that's what I will do.
2012-11-25 1:41 PM
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Subject: RE: should I say or do something???
I am reading this thread for the first time. Difficult situation but you are making the right call. A swat on the bottom is one thing...leaving a bruise on a child...that troubles me.
2012-11-25 2:28 PM
in reply to: #4509092

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Subject: RE: should I say or do something???
BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-11-25 5:31 AM

mdg2003 - 2012-11-25 8:11 AM I know my kids would not be spending the night over there anymore. Sorry, but I don't see room to give this guy slack. If he loses control enough to leave a large bruise on a 4 year old, he needs to answer for it. What if he hits her higher and harder next time? You willing to give this guy an opportunity to exercise any kind of judgement when dealing with your kids?

This. I would never trust my kids around him. I am not sure I'd even babysit them anymore. Suppose someone else notices and he tries to cover himself by lying and saying it happened at your house? If she told you that he hit her, she is already complicit in the abuse.

Assuming it was purposeful, how the hell could anyone hit a 4 year old hard enough to leave a bruise? I think I swatted my kids maybe twice on their butts the entire time they were little,

There are days I'd like to strangle my 16-year old son, but given his years of TKD and now MMA, I'm the one most likely to get the bruises.

I agree with what you've said and you said it very well imo.

If he's capable of doing that to his children, it would concern me greatly him having custody of mine.



2012-11-25 2:39 PM
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Subject: RE: should I say or do something???
crusevegas - 2012-11-26 7:28 AM
BrianRunsPhilly - 2012-11-25 5:31 AM

mdg2003 - 2012-11-25 8:11 AM I know my kids would not be spending the night over there anymore. Sorry, but I don't see room to give this guy slack. If he loses control enough to leave a large bruise on a 4 year old, he needs to answer for it. What if he hits her higher and harder next time? You willing to give this guy an opportunity to exercise any kind of judgement when dealing with your kids?

This. I would never trust my kids around him. I am not sure I'd even babysit them anymore. Suppose someone else notices and he tries to cover himself by lying and saying it happened at your house? If she told you that he hit her, she is already complicit in the abuse.

Assuming it was purposeful, how the hell could anyone hit a 4 year old hard enough to leave a bruise? I think I swatted my kids maybe twice on their butts the entire time they were little,

There are days I'd like to strangle my 16-year old son, but given his years of TKD and now MMA, I'm the one most likely to get the bruises.

I agree with what you've said and you said it very well imo.

If he's capable of doing that to his children, it would concern me greatly him having custody of mine.

Agreed.
2012-11-25 5:17 PM
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Subject: RE: should I say or do something???
Called the daycare centre they will check out the bruise and take appropriate action. However uncomfortable that call was I know I've done the right thing.Thanks BT for the advice!!!
2012-11-25 6:03 PM
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Subject: RE: should I say or do something???
jobaxas - 2012-11-25 5:17 PMCalled the daycare centre they will check out the bruise and take appropriate action. However uncomfortable that call was I know I've done the right thing.Thanks BT for the advice!!!
. Keep us updated of any backlash.
2012-11-25 6:12 PM
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Subject: RE: should I say or do something???

1stTimeTri - 2012-11-26 11:03 AM
jobaxas - 2012-11-25 5:17 PMCalled the daycare centre they will check out the bruise and take appropriate action. However uncomfortable that call was I know I've done the right thing.Thanks BT for the advice!!!
. Keep us updated of any backlash.

It would appear they will do it as a matter of every day procedure, I'm not involved at all - right now!  Do you know, the backlash is irrelevant.  What's important is that the little girl doesn't get another bruise, or worse.  That is all that matters.

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