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2012-07-22 11:35 AM

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Subject: Why is this not a major issue?

Remember how breastfeeding in uniform issue was such an uproar?  Remember the military having an issue with a woman breastfeeding while in uniform?  

Anyone else think this it's just a bit hypocritical that the D.O.D. allowed active duty military members to march in a gay pride parade while in uniform?  

http://news.yahoo.com/troops-march-san-diego-gay-parade-uniform-204528956.html

 



2012-07-22 11:48 AM
in reply to: #4324031

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Subject: RE: Why is this not a major issue?
That should never happen. I don't give a damn what the political issue is, the military should not be political, period.

That decision was wrong.

2012-07-22 12:54 PM
in reply to: #4324031

Iron Donkey
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Subject: RE: Why is this not a major issue?

Maybe it's a private matter, in the general sense, and doesn't deserve corporal punishment?

2012-07-22 4:57 PM
in reply to: #4324040

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Subject: RE: Why is this not a major issue?

DanielG - 2012-07-22 11:48 AM That should never happen. I don't give a damn what the political issue is, the military should not be political, period. That decision was wrong.

I agree, I have no issues with service members standing up for political things, but do it on your own.  

When you bring in the uniform you are representing the US Military and that is wrong.

2012-07-22 5:43 PM
in reply to: #4324031

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Subject: RE: Why is this not a major issue?
I completely support the rights of soldiers or anyone to be openly gay. Part of that is being a military member. Like it or not, the right to be who you are and to express that is exactly what theses soldiers defend. I have zero problem with this.
2012-07-22 5:56 PM
in reply to: #4324336

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Subject: RE: Why is this not a major issue?
pitt83 - 2012-07-22 6:43 PM

I completely support the rights of soldiers or anyone to be openly gay. Part of that is being a military member. Like it or not, the right to be who you are and to express that is exactly what theses soldiers defend. I have zero problem with this.


That's not the issue here. The parade for a political cause in uniform is the issue.

There were people in uniform at the million man march, they got article 15s for politicizing the uniform. There were people in uniform at the promise keeper marches, they got article 15s. These in this parade should get reprimands as well, not approval.

Don't give a damn what cause it's for, don't give a damn what party it's for, don't give a damn whether I agree with the issue or not. Do not wear the uniform for political causes.



2012-07-22 6:06 PM
in reply to: #4324031

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Subject: RE: Why is this not a major issue?

Back in my day '85-92, we couldn't wear our uniforms to anything political:  Republican convention (I don't think they allowed Democrats in the Marine CorpsWink), NRA Convention, or a Green Peace rally.  I find it currious...

2012-07-22 6:12 PM
in reply to: #4324359

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Subject: RE: Why is this not a major issue?
blbriley - 2012-07-22 7:06 PM

Back in my day '85-92, we couldn't wear our uniforms to anything political:  Republican convention (I don't think they allowed Democrats in the Marine CorpsWink), NRA Convention, or a Green Peace rally.  I find it currious...



Yeah, with this ruling, the military must now allow uniforms at Klan rallies, Black Panther parades, Michigan militia meetings in public places, Earth First demonstrations, pro-life demonstrations, etc. That's the only way it can remain consistent.

Perhaps that will give people who have even the least bit of agreement with this ruling an idea of where it can lead and why the military has, before this, come down hard on people going to ANY political rally, parade, meetings, in uniform that were not specifically military in nature.

2012-07-22 6:40 PM
in reply to: #4324364

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Subject: RE: Why is this not a major issue?
DanielG - 2012-07-22 7:12 PM

blbriley - 2012-07-22 7:06 PM

Back in my day '85-92, we couldn't wear our uniforms to anything political:  Republican convention (I don't think they allowed Democrats in the Marine CorpsWink), NRA Convention, or a Green Peace rally.  I find it currious...



Yeah, with this ruling, the military must now allow uniforms at Klan rallies, Black Panther parades, Michigan militia meetings in public places, Earth First demonstrations, pro-life demonstrations, etc. That's the only way it can remain consistent.

Perhaps that will give people who have even the least bit of agreement with this ruling an idea of where it can lead and why the military has, before this, come down hard on people going to ANY political rally, parade, meetings, in uniform that were not specifically military in nature.



OK. As a non-military guy, I get it. Basically, what is in play and what isnt. That mans that whatever the cause, just keep the uni out of it. That, I can buy.
2012-07-22 6:42 PM
in reply to: #4324401

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Subject: RE: Why is this not a major issue?
pitt83 - 2012-07-22 7:40 PM

DanielG - 2012-07-22 7:12 PM

blbriley - 2012-07-22 7:06 PM

Back in my day '85-92, we couldn't wear our uniforms to anything political:  Republican convention (I don't think they allowed Democrats in the Marine CorpsWink), NRA Convention, or a Green Peace rally.  I find it currious...



Yeah, with this ruling, the military must now allow uniforms at Klan rallies, Black Panther parades, Michigan militia meetings in public places, Earth First demonstrations, pro-life demonstrations, etc. That's the only way it can remain consistent.

Perhaps that will give people who have even the least bit of agreement with this ruling an idea of where it can lead and why the military has, before this, come down hard on people going to ANY political rally, parade, meetings, in uniform that were not specifically military in nature.



OK. As a non-military guy, I get it. Basically, what is in play and what isnt. That mans that whatever the cause, just keep the uni out of it. That, I can buy.


Exactly. That's all this is about.

2012-07-22 7:41 PM
in reply to: #4324031

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Subject: RE: Why is this not a major issue?

An alternative viewpoint (from a retired military guy).

Is "gay pride" necessarily a political movement?  Couldn't a gay pride parade be seen as analogous to a holiday parade, or a Strawberry Festival event or something like that?  Or even an "American Pride" parade (like on 4th of July)?  We don't have problems with military in uniform marching in those.

Clearly, some issues like gay marriage are currently political.  But I'm not sure that just being gay and proud of it is.



2012-07-22 7:58 PM
in reply to: #4324086

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Subject: RE: Why is this not a major issue?
1stTimeTri - 2012-07-21 1:54 PM

Maybe it's a private matter, in the general sense, and doesn't deserve corporal punishment?

 

I majorly disagree.  There may be a kernel of truth in that statement,  but it would take a specialist to really sort out the details.

 

2012-07-22 9:14 PM
in reply to: #4324530

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Subject: RE: Why is this not a major issue?
moondawg14 - 2012-07-22 7:58 PM
1stTimeTri - 2012-07-21 1:54 PM

Maybe it's a private matter, in the general sense, and doesn't deserve corporal punishment?

 

I majorly disagree.  There may be a kernel of truth in that statement,  but it would take a specialist to really sort out the details.

 

If only colonel was spelled that way.

2012-07-22 9:14 PM
in reply to: #4324364

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Subject: RE: Why is this not a major issue?
DanielG - 2012-07-22 7:12 PM
blbriley - 2012-07-22 7:06 PM

Back in my day '85-92, we couldn't wear our uniforms to anything political:  Republican convention (I don't think they allowed Democrats in the Marine CorpsWink), NRA Convention, or a Green Peace rally.  I find it currious...

Yeah, with this ruling, the military must now allow uniforms at Klan rallies, Black Panther parades, Michigan militia meetings in public places, Earth First demonstrations, pro-life demonstrations, etc. That's the only way it can remain consistent. Perhaps that will give people who have even the least bit of agreement with this ruling an idea of where it can lead and why the military has, before this, come down hard on people going to ANY political rally, parade, meetings, in uniform that were not specifically military in nature.

My initial thought about this thread was that I thought the issue with breastfeeding in uniform had to do with the uniform being to some degree undone, and that these were totally different issues. Which, to some degree, still is true. But your point, which I highlighted, makes a lot more sense to me, and thus, to my own surprise, I support the idea that an individual can make a statement, but when in uniform, should not be allowed by the military code, to do so. It is the only way the military can truly remain apart from political issues and ultimately be more representative of the people it defends.

One question - is there a position in the military on attending a local church service in uniform? Not on the base, but in the community?

2012-07-22 9:57 PM
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Subject: RE: Why is this not a major issue?
tjh - 2012-07-22 6:41 PM

An alternative viewpoint (from a retired military guy).

Is "gay pride" necessarily a political movement?  Couldn't a gay pride parade be seen as analogous to a holiday parade, or a Strawberry Festival event or something like that?  Or even an "American Pride" parade (like on 4th of July)?  We don't have problems with military in uniform marching in those.

Clearly, some issues like gay marriage are currently political.  But I'm not sure that just being gay and proud of it is.

Apples and oranges... it just is. It is a political statement. Strawberries are not political.

It is made perfectly clear that the day you put on the uniform you no longer have the same rights as the citizens you defend. Speaking freely is punishable by court martial. You can not do, or say anything, as a military member, that puts the military in a bad light, or brings controversy to the military. The entire Military Code of Justice goes on to spell out the specific things that will do that.... the general article is the catch all.... if you do ANYTHING that makes us look bad, you are in big trouble. Out of uniform it is OK to do certain things... unless you are trying to use your standing as a military member to the same thing.

This really is so wrong on so many levels. Has nothing to do what anyone thinks of the issue. I have no problem with gay pride, religious pride, atheist pride, caucasian pride... oh sorry I'm supposed to be ashamed about that... hispanic pride... in uniform it is a non issue. Period.

2012-07-22 10:22 PM
in reply to: #4324031

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Subject: RE: Why is this not a major issue?

So would it be a no-no for someone to wear their uniform to/participate in a St. Patrick's Day/Cinco de Mayo/Thanksgiving/Christmas parade? Is part of it whether the military branch they belong to is officially participating, like Marines having a Toys for Tots float in a parade or some such vs someone declaring their individual support for a various cause/belief?

If members of the military were disciplined for wearing their uniforms at a Promise Keepers which is more of a religious organization than a political one, is it ok for someone to wear their uniform to a wedding or baptism?



2012-07-22 10:29 PM
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Subject: RE: Why is this not a major issue?
Nothing is sacred anymore.....it's stupid.
2012-07-22 10:58 PM
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Subject: RE: Why is this not a major issue?
wingsfan - 2012-07-22 9:22 PM

So would it be a no-no for someone to wear their uniform to/participate in a St. Patrick's Day/Cinco de Mayo/Thanksgiving/Christmas parade? Is part of it whether the military branch they belong to is officially participating, like Marines having a Toys for Tots float in a parade or some such vs someone declaring their individual support for a various cause/belief?

If members of the military were disciplined for wearing their uniforms at a Promise Keepers which is more of a religious organization than a political one, is it ok for someone to wear their uniform to a wedding or baptism?

I think where you are going is if the military is supporting the event... has a float, shows up to "represent" the U.S. Armed forces, or if and individual shows up to voice/show their individual opinion/support.

If an individual was in a St. Patricks day parade with his fellow "Best Darn guys in America" group on their float in uniforn.... that's a no no.

Look at the Color Guards at most sporting events... each Branch of the Armed Forces is represented and they are at a NFL game... does the Armed Forces support the NFL... no, it's the National Athem and presenting the flag and no "statements" are being made. They are performing a duty/service.

An individual showing support in uniform, or voicing comdemnation of the same, is making an individual statement the military does not support or have an opinion of.... officialy.

2012-07-23 6:06 AM
in reply to: #4324710

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Subject: RE: Why is this not a major issue?
wingsfan - 2012-07-22 11:22 PM

So would it be a no-no for someone to wear their uniform to/participate in a St. Patrick's Day/Cinco de Mayo/Thanksgiving/Christmas parade? Is part of it whether the military branch they belong to is officially participating, like Marines having a Toys for Tots float in a parade or some such vs someone declaring their individual support for a various cause/belief?

If members of the military were disciplined for wearing their uniforms at a Promise Keepers which is more of a religious organization than a political one, is it ok for someone to wear their uniform to a wedding or baptism?



So you don't understand the difference between a political rally on the mall and a wedding? Wow.

They could wear their uniform to the parades all they wanted (A's or equivalent) but no, not in the parade.

If the Marines had a toys for tots float, then the Marines involved could wear their uniforms on the float. The Marines couldn't just put one together and ride on it without repercussions, though.

Are you suggesting that the DoD created the float in the gay pride parade? How odd.

2012-07-23 11:08 AM
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Subject: RE: Why is this not a major issue?
DanielG - 2012-07-23 6:06 AM
wingsfan - 2012-07-22 11:22 PM

So would it be a no-no for someone to wear their uniform to/participate in a St. Patrick's Day/Cinco de Mayo/Thanksgiving/Christmas parade? Is part of it whether the military branch they belong to is officially participating, like Marines having a Toys for Tots float in a parade or some such vs someone declaring their individual support for a various cause/belief?

If members of the military were disciplined for wearing their uniforms at a Promise Keepers which is more of a religious organization than a political one, is it ok for someone to wear their uniform to a wedding or baptism?

So you don't understand the difference between a political rally on the mall and a wedding? Wow. They could wear their uniform to the parades all they wanted (A's or equivalent) but no, not in the parade. If the Marines had a toys for tots float, then the Marines involved could wear their uniforms on the float. The Marines couldn't just put one together and ride on it without repercussions, though. Are you suggesting that the DoD created the float in the gay pride parade? How odd.

Where did I say or imply that a political rally on the mall was the same as a wedding? I was asking if wearing a uniform to a religious activity like Promise Keepers was not allowed, was it also prohibited to wear a uniform to another religious event (though some weddings are civil ceremonies, I said "wedding/baptism" hoping to make it clear). I'm also not implying that I think it is wrong if the military prohibited it, just curious how line is drawn.

I've never been to a gay pride parade, but my understanding is that they are more about declaring a sense of pride and fellowship about a paticular subset of our society, hence my reference to the various ethnic and religious holiday parades as a comparison. I'm sure there may be some political issues important to the gay community highlighted by some participants, but I also see candidates running for office and various other politically related causes participating in parades all the time.

I guess I don't see as big of a difference between someone declaring they are gay in uniform at a gay pride parade vs declaring they are of Irish/Mexican/etc decent at an ethnic parade or declaring they are Catholic by wearing their uniform at their god son's baptism. If the distinction is that they shouldn't be declaring anything about their individuality while in uniform and they are all prohibited, that makes sense. Again, not saying any policy is wrong, just curious.

On your last question - no, I don't think it would any less appropriate for the DoD to sponsor a float in a gay pride parade than I would for just about any other ethnic/religious themed parade. Since you have stated you think it would be odd to do so, why is that?

2012-07-23 11:15 AM
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Subject: RE: Why is this not a major issue?
wingsfan - 2012-07-23 12:08 PM

Where did I say or imply that a political rally on the mall was the same as a wedding? I was asking if wearing a uniform to a religious activity like Promise Keepers was not allowed, was it also prohibited to wear a uniform to another religious event (though some weddings are civil ceremonies, I said "wedding/baptism" hoping to make it clear). I'm also not implying that I think it is wrong if the military prohibited it, just curious how line is drawn.



The promise keeper rally was on The Mall in Washington DC. It was the largest rally of males ever. Yeah, that's slightly different than a wedding.

I've never been to a gay pride parade, but my understanding is that they are more about declaring a sense of pride and fellowship about a paticular subset of our society, hence my reference to the various ethnic and religious holiday parades as a comparison. I'm sure there may be some political issues important to the gay community highlighted by some participants, but I also see candidates running for office and various other politically related causes participating in parades all the time.

I guess I don't see as big of a difference between someone declaring they are gay in uniform at a gay pride parade vs declaring they are of Irish/Mexican/etc decent at an ethnic parade or declaring they are Catholic by wearing their uniform at their god son's baptism. If the distinction is that they shouldn't be declaring anything about their individuality while in uniform and they are all prohibited, that makes sense.



There. You got it.

Again, not saying any policy is wrong, just curious.

On your last question - no, I don't think it would any less appropriate for the DoD to sponsor a float in a gay pride parade than I would for just about any other ethnic/religious themed parade. Since you have stated you think it would be odd to do so, why is that?



I was stating it was odd to even consider the DoD would put a float in the gay pride parade, knowing it is a political parade.


2012-07-23 1:38 PM
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Subject: RE: Why is this not a major issue?
DanielG - 2012-07-23 11:15 AM
wingsfan - 2012-07-23 12:08 PM

Where did I say or imply that a political rally on the mall was the same as a wedding? I was asking if wearing a uniform to a religious activity like Promise Keepers was not allowed, was it also prohibited to wear a uniform to another religious event (though some weddings are civil ceremonies, I said "wedding/baptism" hoping to make it clear). I'm also not implying that I think it is wrong if the military prohibited it, just curious how line is drawn.

The promise keeper rally was on The Mall in Washington DC. It was the largest rally of males ever. Yeah, that's slightly different than a wedding.

I've never been to a gay pride parade, but my understanding is that they are more about declaring a sense of pride and fellowship about a paticular subset of our society, hence my reference to the various ethnic and religious holiday parades as a comparison. I'm sure there may be some political issues important to the gay community highlighted by some participants, but I also see candidates running for office and various other politically related causes participating in parades all the time.

I guess I don't see as big of a difference between someone declaring they are gay in uniform at a gay pride parade vs declaring they are of Irish/Mexican/etc decent at an ethnic parade or declaring they are Catholic by wearing their uniform at their god son's baptism. If the distinction is that they shouldn't be declaring anything about their individuality while in uniform and they are all prohibited, that makes sense.

There. You got it.
Again, not saying any policy is wrong, just curious.

On your last question - no, I don't think it would any less appropriate for the DoD to sponsor a float in a gay pride parade than I would for just about any other ethnic/religious themed parade. Since you have stated you think it would be odd to do so, why is that?

I was stating it was odd to even consider the DoD would put a float in the gay pride parade, knowing it is a political parade.

Thanks, this conversation is so much easier with you repeatedly attributing things to me that I haven't said to make your point and now purporting to read my mind and tell me what I know despite me clearly saying I didn't view a gay pride parade as a clearly political event.

Sorry for being sarcastic in response, maybe I should say that it appears that my posts have got under your skin for some reason. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge, but not sure why your tone has taken the turn it has. Again, I'm not challenging the policy and certainly not challenging you personally. Just wanting to get a better understanding.

If your opinion is that Promise Keepers and gay pride parades are clearly political activities, that is fine. Please be respectful enough to understand that others may genuinly have a different opinion on that particular point.

2012-07-23 2:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Why is this not a major issue?
wingsfan - 2012-07-23 2:38 PM

>Sorry for being sarcastic in response, maybe I should say that it appears that my posts have got under your skin for some reason. I appreciate you sharing your knowledge, but not sure why your tone has taken the turn it has. Again, I'm not challenging the policy and certainly not challenging you personally. Just wanting to get a better understanding.

If your opinion is that Promise Keepers and gay pride parades are clearly political activities, that is fine. Please be respectful enough to understand that others may genuinly have a different opinion on that particular point.



In all honesty the whole issue has gotten under my skin. The military is wrong for doing this and it really bugs me. If they had a recruiting float in a city parade that would be different. If it were a military based holiday parade, that would be different. This is a civil parade having nothing to do with military action so the same set of rules should be used as with all other civil parades having nothing to do with military action.

Once the military breaks that rule there is precedent for it to break that rule for other political parades. That bugs me most of all, the military should be non political.

2012-07-23 2:25 PM
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2012-07-23 3:53 PM
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Subject: RE: Why is this not a major issue?

Freedom of expression is for all of us no matter what job we have. If a soldier in uniform expresses a political point of view, it in no way means that "The Military" itself shares (or doesnt share) that view.

 

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