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Immigration mess
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 2014-07-11 11:20 AM |
Pro  9391     Omaha, NE |  Subject: Immigration messI'm surprised there hasn't been a post about this yet. What do you guys think about the mess going on with all the people flooding across the border? More importantly, what do you think would be a good solution? Personally, I don't in any way blame the people trying to come over because if I were in their situation I would be doing the same dang thing. I also feel as a nation our politicians have encouraged people to come over by looking the other way for decades. Politically, I feel both parties are accessories but for different reasons. Repubs want cheap labor and dems want new voting blocks so they both encourage it. My tuwood presidential platform would be to completely overhaul our immigration process so that people can legally immigrate much easier. The current process is a joke and it's virtually impossible to become a citizen for anyone without a lot of time/money/connections. Any new citizen would not be entitled to government subsidies for 10 years, because if we make it easy to come and pay people to do nothing it will implode quickly. So, I"m sure this comes as a shock to many of you, but I'm not in the camp of "deport everyone".
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| 2014-07-11 12:26 PM in reply to: tuwood |
| Veteran 379 | Subject: RE: Immigration mess my only input is this: "The current process is a joke and it's virtually impossible to become a citizen for anyone without a lot of time/money/connections" this is FALSE. certainly having connections gets you on the super fast train, but the vast majority of those gaining citizenship have ZERO connections - unless you have a different definition of "connections." and depending on your definition of "a lot of money," this too is wrong. The fees for the application, including fingerprints and background checks, are just under $700. in terms of time, if you sent in all the correct paperwork, don't have a criminal record, there isn't something suspicious, and you are qualified, it can happen in less than six months ...yes, without connections or "a lot" of money. "We kind of do this with work Visa's but it's very expensive with a lot of loopholes, so it's primarily used for high end white collar jobs" again, FALSE. I have seen people get a work visa for working in a butcher shop, and grocery store, and a dairy farm milker. Is that high end white collar? are nurses high end white collar? I would like a definition of high end white collar if you are going to claim it's primarily used for high end white collar. the process is actually quite lenient if an employer is willing to sponsor an employee it is a mess, but don't post false information. as an aside, have a look at the denaturalization program and why it came about. you cannot flood CIS with 13 million naturalization applications and expect applications to be approved in a month, unless you really don't care about their criminal history. |
| 2014-07-11 1:42 PM in reply to: sheesleeva |
Master 2946 Centennial, CO | Subject: RE: Immigration mess I'd only add one thing. Enforcement... If we allow for guest workers, and pathway to citizenship, then all areas where gov. services are offered, must be required to ask for proof that they are in the system, and can be denied services if they are not. The biggest example of this would be education. Unless the people are working and in the program we should not be providing free education at the expense of those who do pay into the system. In fact, I would support this now. Other services would include wellfare, food stamps, emergency health services, etc. If we make it easy to be here, then there should be no excuse for not being part of the system. And by being part of the system, they would receive the protection of our laws and system. I do also agree that they would not be elligible for many programs for say 10 years. Let them pay in to the system that will provide for them later.
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| 2014-07-11 2:02 PM in reply to: sheesleeva |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Immigration mess Originally posted by sheesleeva my only input is this: "The current process is a joke and it's virtually impossible to become a citizen for anyone without a lot of time/money/connections" this is FALSE. certainly having connections gets you on the super fast train, but the vast majority of those gaining citizenship have ZERO connections - unless you have a different definition of "connections." and depending on your definition of "a lot of money," this too is wrong. The fees for the application, including fingerprints and background checks, are just under $700. in terms of time, if you sent in all the correct paperwork, don't have a criminal record, there isn't something suspicious, and you are qualified, it can happen in less than six months ...yes, without connections or "a lot" of money. "We kind of do this with work Visa's but it's very expensive with a lot of loopholes, so it's primarily used for high end white collar jobs" again, FALSE. I have seen people get a work visa for working in a butcher shop, and grocery store, and a dairy farm milker. Is that high end white collar? are nurses high end white collar? I would like a definition of high end white collar if you are going to claim it's primarily used for high end white collar. the process is actually quite lenient if an employer is willing to sponsor an employee it is a mess, but don't post false information. as an aside, have a look at the denaturalization program and why it came about. you cannot flood CIS with 13 million naturalization applications and expect applications to be approved in a month, unless you really don't care about their criminal history. I was fortunate enough to be born in the US so I didn't have to go through the process, but I've never seen anyone who has said it was easy or cheap. I have a friend of mine whose actually a waitress at a restaurant who has been trying to get citizenship for over 10 years. She's been living here legally on a student visa, but is running out of degree's to get and has spent many thousands of dollars on the process and has no end in sight. Immigration Reform: How Hard Is It To Become A US Citizen? More 12.5 million individuals last year applied for a visa under the Diversity Immigrant Visa program, which offers residents of select countries a chance at winning one of 55,000 available permanent resident cards. Even though most applicants have less than 0.01 percent chance of winning this lottery, it is an easier path to citizenship than most others. The $700 you mention is just for the application fee at the very end of the journey, but there is a whole lot more to it than that because you have to get here first. Once you're in the US legally for 5 years, then you can apply for citizenship. In some instances people wait more than 19 years to get a visa to enter the US legally. It's not like you just get on a plane and fly to the US and walk into the immigration office and pay $700 to become a citizen. ;-) If I'm just a joe schmoe from mexico who decides I want to become a citizen there is no possible way I can be a citizen in 6 months with the current system. Impossible! You hit the nail on the head for work visa's. "if the employer is willing to sponsor an employee". in the early 2000's I sponsored several work visa's for employees and it cost my business over $10,000 for each individual and several weeks of bureaucracy. I do not know of anyone who is willing to fork over the kind of money it takes to sponsor a work visa for an hourly job. Hence, high end white color work. Even on the cheap end I've read that it's around $3000, which is still a lot more than any farmer is going to pay to legally bring in a laborer on a work visa. So, I respectfully disagree that I posted anything false. |
| 2014-07-11 2:20 PM in reply to: velocomp |
Elite 6387 | Subject: RE: Immigration mess We have this "problem" because we want it. Politicians get votes, Americans get cheap labor, employers get a whole class of workers with no rights. It's ridiculously simple to solve. Close the border, or open it. It's not complicated. America has a illegal immigration problem because America wants illegal immigrants. It's B.S. Enforce the laws, or take them off the books. But if you do that, you get rid of millions of undocumented workers that we can take advantage of. That's the problem. How do you get millions of workers with no rights and no real benefits? The wage is usually pretty good... but no bennies, and they can be replaced with no complaints. I have friends.... the girls boyfriend was moved here illegally as a child. Grew up, went to school... applied for citizenship... denied, because they say he has gang affiliation. Everyone that knows him says no. He now has a child. Waited in Mexico for 2 years...till they finally said no...he came back illegally. He bought fake papers. He works hard at two jobs, to pay back fees to get here. I'm pretty conflicted by that.... the kid seems like a good kid. He's taking care of his family, doing what he must. But he is illegal.... and just like most others... done with American's help.... to break the law. But no matter how good his "papers" are.... he is ALWAYS going to be illegal. He will never have any decent jobs that require proper credentials. He can be deported if ever found. He will be deported, and he will be charged...because now that he filed for citizenship and was denied... the penalties are steep for being here. It is a FUBAR situation on all sides. Not to mention his kid that can loose his parent at any time..... and I don't even think he qualifies for amnesty... yet he has lived here his whole life. |
| 2014-07-12 1:36 PM in reply to: 0 |
| 286 , | Subject: RE: Immigration mess One way to at least help with the added expense of illegal immigrants, is to create a flat tax on every single item in the U.S. That way, every single person who resides here, illegally or not, pays into the taxation system, even if they are not claiming federal income tax. It doesn't stop illegal immigration, but it is a way to somehow enable our economy to shoulder some of the financial burden of it all. I'm not really sure how to control illegal immigration in and of itself, however. From a humanitarian point of view, sending children back and not permitting them to stay, seems ethically wrong. But, how to resolve it, I don't know. :/ Edited by SGirl 2014-07-12 1:37 PM |
| 2014-07-14 2:20 PM in reply to: SGirl |
Champion 6993 Chicago, Illinois | Subject: RE: Immigration mess Originally posted by SGirl I'm not really sure how to control illegal immigration in and of itself, however. From a humanitarian point of view, sending children back and not permitting them to stay, seems ethically wrong. But, how to resolve it, I don't know. :/ Big part of the issue right now. If they are not with there parents I really have to be concerned why they are here then. At least if they are under 16. |
| 2014-07-15 8:44 AM in reply to: SGirl |
Champion 15211 Southern Chicago Suburbs, IL | Subject: RE: Immigration mess Originally posted by SGirl One way to at least help with the added expense of illegal immigrants, is to create a flat tax on every single item in the U.S. That way, every single person who resides here, illegally or not, pays into the taxation system, even if they are not claiming federal income tax. It doesn't stop illegal immigration, but it is a way to somehow enable our economy to shoulder some of the financial burden of it all. I'm not really sure how to control illegal immigration in and of itself, however. From a humanitarian point of view, sending children back and not permitting them to stay, seems ethically wrong. But, how to resolve it, I don't know. :/ Thankfully nobody is taking this tool seriously. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-mullins-new-mexico-co_n_612482.html |
| 2014-07-15 9:02 AM in reply to: crowny2 |
| New user 900 , | Subject: RE: Immigration mess Although this has nothing to do with a solution, I have a serious problem with no press access, pictures or interviews with border agents by DHS. They will not permit members of congress to visit military bases where the illegals are housed. Yep the most transparent administration in history. |
| 2014-07-15 9:28 AM in reply to: crowny2 |
Champion 18680 Lost in the Luminiferous Aether | Subject: RE: Immigration mess Originally posted by crowny2 Originally posted by SGirl One way to at least help with the added expense of illegal immigrants, is to create a flat tax on every single item in the U.S. That way, every single person who resides here, illegally or not, pays into the taxation system, even if they are not claiming federal income tax. It doesn't stop illegal immigration, but it is a way to somehow enable our economy to shoulder some of the financial burden of it all. I'm not really sure how to control illegal immigration in and of itself, however. From a humanitarian point of view, sending children back and not permitting them to stay, seems ethically wrong. But, how to resolve it, I don't know. :/ Thankfully nobody is taking this tool seriously. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/06/15/tom-mullins-new-mexico-co_n_612482.html Ah yes, another attention grabbing headline from huffpo. No real surprise there! The "land-mine solution" is something that has been being said in NM for a long time, it's nothing new. It is most often hyperbole and comes from frustration with the lack of enforcement, not a serious suggestion. As such, that means his explanation is quite reasonable but of course that would not stop media outlets from villifying those with differing political beliefs. |
| 2014-07-15 10:01 AM in reply to: trinnas |
Champion 6993 Chicago, Illinois | Subject: RE: Immigration mess shooting on site would be better than landmines. Sad thing is I think it would work though you would get a ton of protests. Right now part of the problem is no risk all reward for coming in illegal? IF your caught you get a free trip home and you can just try again if you want. |
| 2014-07-15 10:23 AM in reply to: chirunner134 |
Champion 18680 Lost in the Luminiferous Aether | Subject: RE: Immigration mess Originally posted by chirunner134 shooting on site would be better than landmines. Sad thing is I think it would work though you would get a ton of protests. Right now part of the problem is no risk all reward for coming in illegal? IF your caught you get a free trip home and you can just try again if you want. The problem with shooting vs land mines (not that I advocate either) is the lack of personnel to cover a very large area. We are talking about close to 2 thousand miles of border in New Mexico alone and most of that is open country. |
| 2014-07-15 11:17 AM in reply to: trinnas |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Immigration mess I welcome everyone to our country. If I were king for a day I'd make it so you just had to sign in, get a SS card, and carry on with your life. Welcome to America! |
| 2014-07-15 1:15 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Immigration mess Originally posted by Left Brain I welcome everyone to our country. If I were king for a day I'd make it so you just had to sign in, get a SS card, and carry on with your life. Welcome to America! If it weren't for our social services setup I'd be right there with you. The unfortunate downside to a policy like this is a huge percentage would partake in our entitlement system which they don't get in their own country so we'd quickly implode financially. If they were coming here to work and earn their keep and not be allowed to partake in entitlements for x amount of years then you've got my vote. |
| 2014-07-15 2:50 PM in reply to: tuwood |
Champion 18680 Lost in the Luminiferous Aether | Subject: RE: Immigration mess Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by Left Brain I welcome everyone to our country. If I were king for a day I'd make it so you just had to sign in, get a SS card, and carry on with your life. Welcome to America! If it weren't for our social services setup I'd be right there with you. The unfortunate downside to a policy like this is a huge percentage would partake in our entitlement system which they don't get in their own country so we'd quickly implode financially. If they were coming here to work and earn their keep and not be allowed to partake in entitlements for x amount of years then you've got my vote. Most illegal immigrants that I have known do work and work very hard. They are looking for opportunity not handouts most of the time. |
| 2014-07-15 4:57 PM in reply to: trinnas |
Elite 4547 | Subject: RE: Immigration mess Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by Left Brain I welcome everyone to our country. If I were king for a day I'd make it so you just had to sign in, get a SS card, and carry on with your life. Welcome to America! If it weren't for our social services setup I'd be right there with you. The unfortunate downside to a policy like this is a huge percentage would partake in our entitlement system which they don't get in their own country so we'd quickly implode financially. If they were coming here to work and earn their keep and not be allowed to partake in entitlements for x amount of years then you've got my vote. Most illegal immigrants that I have known do work and work very hard. They are looking for opportunity not handouts most of the time. Bingo Trinnas. And add to that the fact illegal immigrants allow us to purchase produce at our supermarkets at very cheap prices. Illegal immigrants allow us to purchase homes at very cheap prices. Agriculture and construction are two industries that would be devastated by a closed border with Mexico. |
| 2014-07-15 5:06 PM in reply to: trinnas |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: Immigration mess Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by tuwood Most illegal immigrants that I have known do work and work very hard. They are looking for opportunity not handouts most of the time. Originally posted by Left Brain I welcome everyone to our country. If I were king for a day I'd make it so you just had to sign in, get a SS card, and carry on with your life. Welcome to America! If it weren't for our social services setup I'd be right there with you. The unfortunate downside to a policy like this is a huge percentage would partake in our entitlement system which they don't get in their own country so we'd quickly implode financially. If they were coming here to work and earn their keep and not be allowed to partake in entitlements for x amount of years then you've got my vote. I agree, but they work very hard because they have no other choice. They cannot get entitlements from the government if they're not a citizen. However, with the LB plan they all get their instant citizenship as soon as they cross the border, so now they have options. |
| 2014-07-15 5:37 PM in reply to: tuwood |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Immigration mess Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by tuwood Most illegal immigrants that I have known do work and work very hard. They are looking for opportunity not handouts most of the time. Originally posted by Left Brain I welcome everyone to our country. If I were king for a day I'd make it so you just had to sign in, get a SS card, and carry on with your life. Welcome to America! If it weren't for our social services setup I'd be right there with you. The unfortunate downside to a policy like this is a huge percentage would partake in our entitlement system which they don't get in their own country so we'd quickly implode financially. If they were coming here to work and earn their keep and not be allowed to partake in entitlements for x amount of years then you've got my vote. I agree, but they work very hard because they have no other choice. They cannot get entitlements from the government if they're not a citizen. However, with the LB plan they all get their instant citizenship as soon as they cross the border, so now they have options. I'm of the belief that if you come here for a better life you will make one for yourself. I trust in the basic goodness of people and, as I said, all are welcome here in my book. Make it easy for them to become part of what we are, and they will. |
| 2014-07-15 8:08 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
| Veteran 244 Ohio | Subject: RE: Immigration mess Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by tuwood Most illegal immigrants that I have known do work and work very hard. They are looking for opportunity not handouts most of the time. Originally posted by Left Brain I welcome everyone to our country. If I were king for a day I'd make it so you just had to sign in, get a SS card, and carry on with your life. Welcome to America! If it weren't for our social services setup I'd be right there with you. The unfortunate downside to a policy like this is a huge percentage would partake in our entitlement system which they don't get in their own country so we'd quickly implode financially. If they were coming here to work and earn their keep and not be allowed to partake in entitlements for x amount of years then you've got my vote. I agree, but they work very hard because they have no other choice. They cannot get entitlements from the government if they're not a citizen. However, with the LB plan they all get their instant citizenship as soon as they cross the border, so now they have options. I'm of the belief that if you come here for a better life you will make one for yourself. I trust in the basic goodness of people and, as I said, all are welcome here in my book. Make it easy for them to become part of what we are, and they will. x2 |
| 2014-07-16 7:28 AM in reply to: chirunner134 |
Member 103 Harare | Subject: RE: Immigration mess Originally posted by chirunner134 shooting on site would be better than landmines. Sad thing is I think it would work though you would get a ton of protests. Right now part of the problem is no risk all reward for coming in illegal? IF your caught you get a free trip home and you can just try again if you want. I think your assessment of "no risk and all reward" is pretty off base. Every year hundreds of people die of exhaustion/exposure trying to cross the Mexican desert. Thousands of girls are sexually assaulted crossing through Central America and Mexico. It is more or less expected that women will be raped on the journey. From NYT: "On Christmas Day last year, several volunteers from one of Tucson’s humanitarian aid groups came across a woman with broken ribs and a punctured lung during one of their desert runs. She was still alive; she had managed to fight off her coyote when he tried to rape her. “The question is not if a female migrant will be raped,” Shura Wallin, an aid worker in Arizona, told me, “but when and how often. Things are getting so much worse here.” http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/22/opinion/migrants-dying-on-the-us-... All this to work for $5 an hour cleaning toilets, with constant fear that you'll be detained and deported on your way home from work. It's not a situation I would accept unless my circumstances were pretty unbearable in my country of origin. |
| 2014-07-16 1:22 PM in reply to: chirunner134 |
| 297 Arden, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Immigration mess Originally posted by chirunner134 shooting on site would be better than landmines. Sad thing is I think it would work though you would get a ton of protests. Right now part of the problem is no risk all reward for coming in illegal? IF your caught you get a free trip home and you can just try again if you want. Am I understanding you right? Shooting human beings on site, for the crime of crossing a border illegally? Tell me I missed something. People get up in arms over a police officer shooting a dog, but another human being? |
| 2014-07-16 1:24 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
| 297 Arden, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Immigration mess Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by tuwood Most illegal immigrants that I have known do work and work very hard. They are looking for opportunity not handouts most of the time. Originally posted by Left Brain I welcome everyone to our country. If I were king for a day I'd make it so you just had to sign in, get a SS card, and carry on with your life. Welcome to America! If it weren't for our social services setup I'd be right there with you. The unfortunate downside to a policy like this is a huge percentage would partake in our entitlement system which they don't get in their own country so we'd quickly implode financially. If they were coming here to work and earn their keep and not be allowed to partake in entitlements for x amount of years then you've got my vote. I agree, but they work very hard because they have no other choice. They cannot get entitlements from the government if they're not a citizen. However, with the LB plan they all get their instant citizenship as soon as they cross the border, so now they have options. I'm of the belief that if you come here for a better life you will make one for yourself. I trust in the basic goodness of people and, as I said, all are welcome here in my book. Make it easy for them to become part of what we are, and they will. I think hell just froze over, because I agreed with you about something. This is weird...  |
| 2014-07-16 1:32 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Immigration mess Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville Originally posted by Left Brain I think hell just froze over, because I agreed with you about something. This is weird... Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by tuwood Most illegal immigrants that I have known do work and work very hard. They are looking for opportunity not handouts most of the time. Originally posted by Left Brain I welcome everyone to our country. If I were king for a day I'd make it so you just had to sign in, get a SS card, and carry on with your life. Welcome to America! If it weren't for our social services setup I'd be right there with you. The unfortunate downside to a policy like this is a huge percentage would partake in our entitlement system which they don't get in their own country so we'd quickly implode financially. If they were coming here to work and earn their keep and not be allowed to partake in entitlements for x amount of years then you've got my vote. I agree, but they work very hard because they have no other choice. They cannot get entitlements from the government if they're not a citizen. However, with the LB plan they all get their instant citizenship as soon as they cross the border, so now they have options. I'm of the belief that if you come here for a better life you will make one for yourself. I trust in the basic goodness of people and, as I said, all are welcome here in my book. Make it easy for them to become part of what we are, and they will. Don't get used to it. Edited by Left Brain 2014-07-16 1:32 PM |
| 2014-07-16 1:52 PM in reply to: Left Brain |
| 297 Arden, North Carolina | Subject: RE: Immigration mess Originally posted by Left Brain Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville Originally posted by Left Brain I think hell just froze over, because I agreed with you about something. This is weird... Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by tuwood Most illegal immigrants that I have known do work and work very hard. They are looking for opportunity not handouts most of the time. Originally posted by Left Brain I welcome everyone to our country. If I were king for a day I'd make it so you just had to sign in, get a SS card, and carry on with your life. Welcome to America! If it weren't for our social services setup I'd be right there with you. The unfortunate downside to a policy like this is a huge percentage would partake in our entitlement system which they don't get in their own country so we'd quickly implode financially. If they were coming here to work and earn their keep and not be allowed to partake in entitlements for x amount of years then you've got my vote. I agree, but they work very hard because they have no other choice. They cannot get entitlements from the government if they're not a citizen. However, with the LB plan they all get their instant citizenship as soon as they cross the border, so now they have options. I'm of the belief that if you come here for a better life you will make one for yourself. I trust in the basic goodness of people and, as I said, all are welcome here in my book. Make it easy for them to become part of what we are, and they will. Don't get used to it. No worries there...It's an uncomfortable feeling |
| 2014-07-16 1:58 PM in reply to: TriDadinAsheville |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: Immigration mess Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville Originally posted by Left Brain No worries there...It's an uncomfortable feeling Originally posted by TriDadinAsheville Originally posted by Left Brain I think hell just froze over, because I agreed with you about something. This is weird... Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by trinnas Originally posted by tuwood Most illegal immigrants that I have known do work and work very hard. They are looking for opportunity not handouts most of the time. Originally posted by Left Brain I welcome everyone to our country. If I were king for a day I'd make it so you just had to sign in, get a SS card, and carry on with your life. Welcome to America! If it weren't for our social services setup I'd be right there with you. The unfortunate downside to a policy like this is a huge percentage would partake in our entitlement system which they don't get in their own country so we'd quickly implode financially. If they were coming here to work and earn their keep and not be allowed to partake in entitlements for x amount of years then you've got my vote. I agree, but they work very hard because they have no other choice. They cannot get entitlements from the government if they're not a citizen. However, with the LB plan they all get their instant citizenship as soon as they cross the border, so now they have options. I'm of the belief that if you come here for a better life you will make one for yourself. I trust in the basic goodness of people and, as I said, all are welcome here in my book. Make it easy for them to become part of what we are, and they will. Don't get used to it. You have yourself to blame.....the last I saw you made it a point not to read anything I post. You should learn to stick with the program. |
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