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2012-06-28 11:28 AM

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Subject: "America is not the greatest country in the world..." ??

Since everyone is worked up today about the ACA I figured I'd throw some gas on the fire... Saw this floating around recently.

Warning a bit of NSFW language...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h__uutzcQXc&feature=player_embedded

Thoughts?  I'll hold my opinions for now...

(3..2..1.. why does Jeff Daniels hate America?)



Edited by TriRSquared 2012-06-28 11:29 AM


2012-06-28 11:30 AM
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Subject: RE: America is not the greatest country in the world...

I have my hand cart ready.      No red font on purpose. Cool

 

/Devil's Advocate......

2012-06-28 11:37 AM
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Subject: RE: "America is not the greatest country in the world..." ??
He is completely right.  We are not the greatest country in the world, because to me that is a superior mentality that has taken the meaning of freedom and completely distorted it.  
2012-06-28 11:58 AM
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Subject: RE: "America is not the greatest country in the world..." ??

ecozenmama - 2012-06-28 12:37 PM He is completely right.  We are not the greatest country in the world, because to me that is a superior mentality that has taken the meaning of freedom and completely distorted it.  

I wholeheartedly agree with you....On a different note, great first show, i'm looking forward to the rest of the season.

2012-06-28 12:20 PM
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Subject: RE: "America is not the greatest country in the world..." ??
What did he say that was untrue? If you are going to make blanket statements (such as "we're the greatest..."), you should be able to point to some kind of metrics that confirm that assertion. And frankly, I would rather be honest about the problems so we can tackle them, rather than beat our chests proclaiming our primacy while Rome burns around us (to mix my metaphors). And it seems to me, in that clip, he pointed out not only the problems, but the road to the solutions. 
2012-06-28 12:23 PM
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Subject: RE: "America is not the greatest country in the world..." ??

gearboy - 2012-06-28 1:20 PM What did he say that was untrue? If you are going to make blanket statements (such as "we're the greatest..."), you should be able to point to some kind of metrics that confirm that assertion. And frankly, I would rather be honest about the problems so we can tackle them, rather than beat our chests proclaiming our primacy while Rome burns around us (to mix my metaphors). And it seems to me, in that clip, he pointed out not only the problems, but the road to the solutions. 

Nothing... you'd probably be surprised to hear that I 100% agree with this monologue.



2012-06-28 12:29 PM
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Subject: RE: "America is not the greatest country in the world..." ??
TriRSquared - 2012-06-28 1:23 PM

gearboy - 2012-06-28 1:20 PM What did he say that was untrue? If you are going to make blanket statements (such as "we're the greatest..."), you should be able to point to some kind of metrics that confirm that assertion. And frankly, I would rather be honest about the problems so we can tackle them, rather than beat our chests proclaiming our primacy while Rome burns around us (to mix my metaphors). And it seems to me, in that clip, he pointed out not only the problems, but the road to the solutions. 

Nothing... you'd probably be surprised to hear that I 100% agree with this monologue.

In that case - beer's on!

2012-06-28 12:33 PM
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Subject: RE: "America is not the greatest country in the world..." ??
Now we're getting and arguing our political rhetoric from a cable TV show? Wow, this is even less intellectual than Fox news.
2012-06-28 12:38 PM
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Subject: RE: "America is not the greatest country in the world..." ??
Actually, there is some evidence to the contrary. If America is so bad, why do people in other countries overwhelmingly name the US as th country they want to live in permanently?

From Gallup via Wikipedia:

"A 2012 survey by Gallup found roughly 640 million adults would like to migrate to another country permanently if they had the chance.[6] Nearly one-quarter (23%) of these respondents, which translates to more than 150 million adults worldwide, named the United States as their desired future residence, while an additional 7% of respondents, representing an estimated 45 million, chose the United Kingdom. The other top desired destination countries (those where an estimated 25 million or more adults would like to go) were Canada, France, Saudi Arabia, Australia, Germany and Spain."

2012-06-28 12:45 PM
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Subject: RE: "America is not the greatest country in the world..." ??

scoobysdad - 2012-06-28 12:38 PM Actually, there is some evidence to the contrary. If America is so bad, why do people in other countries overwhelmingly name the US as th country they want to live in permanently?

I also find it amusing to listen to all the people saying how screwed we are as a country and how the sky if falling.

They never seem to mention that they're planning on moving out.

2012-06-28 12:47 PM
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Subject: RE: "America is not the greatest country in the world..." ??
zed707 - 2012-06-28 1:45 PM

scoobysdad - 2012-06-28 12:38 PM Actually, there is some evidence to the contrary. If America is so bad, why do people in other countries overwhelmingly name the US as th country they want to live in permanently?

I also find it amusing to listen to all the people saying how screwed we are as a country and how the sky if falling.

They never seem to mention that they're planning on moving out.

Because other places are more screwed does not mean we are not.



2012-06-28 12:53 PM
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Subject: RE: "America is not the greatest country in the world..." ??

scoobysdad - 2012-06-28 1:38 PM Actually, there is some evidence to the contrary. If America is so bad, why do people in other countries overwhelmingly name the US as th country they want to live in permanently? From Gallup via Wikipedia: "A 2012 survey by Gallup found roughly 640 million adults would like to migrate to another country permanently if they had the chance.[6] Nearly one-quarter (23%) of these respondents, which translates to more than 150 million adults worldwide, named the United States as their desired future residence, while an additional 7% of respondents, representing an estimated 45 million, chose the United Kingdom. The other top desired destination countries (those where an estimated 25 million or more adults would like to go) were Canada, France, Saudi Arabia, Australia, Germany and Spain."

Marketing. It's the same reason everyone drinks Coke or Pepsi, and hardly anyone has love for RC cola. Or why you should ask your doctor if drug X is "right for you". If you have not been here, all your ideas about the US come from the media. And we look GREAT on film - fast cars, hot women, muscular and clever men. We all live in mansions and have "the best" of everything. And if you HAVE been here on vacation, it's the same reason I think I want to live in the Caribbean. 

If you want to base your thesis on how people elsewhere think, then let's start with the constitution. For the last 20 or so years, Canada's constitution has been the model for more countries than ours. Why would that be, if our system is the best?

2012-06-28 12:55 PM
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Subject: RE: "America is not the greatest country in the world..." ??
gearboy - 2012-06-28 1:53 PM

scoobysdad - 2012-06-28 1:38 PM Actually, there is some evidence to the contrary. If America is so bad, why do people in other countries overwhelmingly name the US as th country they want to live in permanently? From Gallup via Wikipedia: "A 2012 survey by Gallup found roughly 640 million adults would like to migrate to another country permanently if they had the chance.[6] Nearly one-quarter (23%) of these respondents, which translates to more than 150 million adults worldwide, named the United States as their desired future residence, while an additional 7% of respondents, representing an estimated 45 million, chose the United Kingdom. The other top desired destination countries (those where an estimated 25 million or more adults would like to go) were Canada, France, Saudi Arabia, Australia, Germany and Spain."

Marketing. It's the same reason everyone drinks Coke or Pepsi, and hardly anyone has love for RC cola. Or why you should ask your doctor if drug X is "right for you". If you have not been here, all your ideas about the US come from the media. And we look GREAT on film - fast cars, hot women, muscular and clever men. We all live in mansions and have "the best" of everything. And if you HAVE been here on vacation, it's the same reason I think I want to live in the Caribbean. 

If you want to base your thesis on how people elsewhere think, then let's start with the constitution. For the last 20 or so years, Canada's constitution has been the model for more countries than ours. Why would that be, if our system is the best?

Really you want to measure best by the last 20 years???  How about we see how that works out for them in say 200 years.

2012-06-28 12:55 PM
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Subject: RE: "America is not the greatest country in the world..." ??

ecozenmama - 2012-06-28 12:37 PM We are not the greatest country in the world, because to me that is a superior mentality that has taken the meaning of freedom and completely distorted it.  

I don't understand this.  If you don't agree, then fine, but it does beg the obvious question . . . .  However, I don't understand the suggestion that feeling that the US (or any country really) is the greatest in the world equates to a "superior mentality that has taken the meaning of freedom and completely distorted it."  It can be as simple as pride.  I do think the US is the greatest country in the world, but that certainly doesn't make me blind to her flaws or the attributes of other countries.  I wouldn't begrudge anyone else who feels their country is the greatest in the world.  How is feeling that your country is the greatest in the world distorting the meaning of freedom?

 

 

2012-06-28 1:01 PM
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Subject: RE: "America is not the greatest country in the world..." ??
trinnas - 2012-06-28 1:47 PM
zed707 - 2012-06-28 1:45 PM

scoobysdad - 2012-06-28 12:38 PM Actually, there is some evidence to the contrary. If America is so bad, why do people in other countries overwhelmingly name the US as th country they want to live in permanently?

I also find it amusing to listen to all the people saying how screwed we are as a country and how the sky if falling.

They never seem to mention that they're planning on moving out.

Because other places are more screwed does not mean we are not.

Yep.

Are we better than other countries in many ways? Yes. However we are also far worse off in others. There is no "greatest country in the world". We can only strive to do better in the areas where we lack.  And right now there are a LOT of them...

 

2012-06-28 1:03 PM
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Subject: RE: "America is not the greatest country in the world..." ??

TriRSquared - 2012-06-28 2:01 PM

There is no "greatest country in the world".  

Assessments don't need to be objective. 

 

 



2012-06-28 1:04 PM
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Subject: RE: "America is not the greatest country in the world..." ??

scoobysdad - 2012-06-28 1:38 PM Actually, there is some evidence to the contrary. If America is so bad, why do people in other countries overwhelmingly name the US as th country they want to live in permanently? From Gallup via Wikipedia: "A 2012 survey by Gallup found roughly 640 million adults would like to migrate to another country permanently if they had the chance.[6] Nearly one-quarter (23%) of these respondents, which translates to more than 150 million adults worldwide, named the United States as their desired future residence, while an additional 7% of respondents, representing an estimated 45 million, chose the United Kingdom. The other top desired destination countries (those where an estimated 25 million or more adults would like to go) were Canada, France, Saudi Arabia, Australia, Germany and Spain."

Agree with this ^^.

Also agree with one of the commenters on the video who said "I love how he's throwing obscenities at the current generations for stuff largely caused by the baby boomers."  I think the Boomers have as much to do with the current predicament as any generation.  College kids may be "all about me" but they always have been. The kids these days are so much smarter than any generation before.  They have more access to more information than ever before.  They just need to be challenged and anyone who served in Iraq or Afghanistan with this generation knows what I'm talking about.  These kids are really smart and they will overcome obstacles if we let them figure it out. 

As a nation, we've had great times interspersed with bad times throughout our history.  World War II/Segregation, Space Race/Women can't vote, Cure Polio/Great Depression. The best medical and technological advances in history have come from fighting wars which are the some worst examples of human behavior. 

When we're great, we're the greatest country in the world, when we're off, we're way the heck off...Which is I think the underlying thesis of the overdramatized monologue by the Dumb and Dumber guy... 

What he doesn't cover is: If not the US, then what country is the greatest country in the world right now?

 

2012-06-28 1:44 PM
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Subject: RE: "America is not the greatest country in the world..." ??
GomesBolt - 2012-06-28 2:04 PM

Which is I think the underlying thesis of the overdramatized monologue by the Dumb and Dumber guy...

Comment win...

2012-06-28 1:49 PM
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Subject: RE: "America is not the greatest country in the world..." ??
GomesBolt - 2012-06-28 2:04 PM

scoobysdad - 2012-06-28 1:38 PM Actually, there is some evidence to the contrary. If America is so bad, why do people in other countries overwhelmingly name the US as th country they want to live in permanently? From Gallup via Wikipedia: "A 2012 survey by Gallup found roughly 640 million adults would like to migrate to another country permanently if they had the chance.[6] Nearly one-quarter (23%) of these respondents, which translates to more than 150 million adults worldwide, named the United States as their desired future residence, while an additional 7% of respondents, representing an estimated 45 million, chose the United Kingdom. The other top desired destination countries (those where an estimated 25 million or more adults would like to go) were Canada, France, Saudi Arabia, Australia, Germany and Spain."

Agree with this ^^.

Also agree with one of the commenters on the video who said "I love how he's throwing obscenities at the current generations for stuff largely caused by the baby boomers."  I think the Boomers have as much to do with the current predicament as any generation.  College kids may be "all about me" but they always have been. The kids these days are so much smarter than any generation before.  They have more access to more information than ever before.  They just need to be challenged and anyone who served in Iraq or Afghanistan with this generation knows what I'm talking about.  These kids are really smart and they will overcome obstacles if we let them figure it out. 

As a nation, we've had great times interspersed with bad times throughout our history.  World War II/Segregation, Space Race/Women can't vote, Cure Polio/Great Depression. The best medical and technological advances in history have come from fighting wars which are the some worst examples of human behavior. 

When we're great, we're the greatest country in the world, when we're off, we're way the heck off...Which is I think the underlying thesis of the overdramatized monologue by the Dumb and Dumber guy... 

What he doesn't cover is: If not the US, then what country is the greatest country in the world right now?

 

Again, you have to define your metrics? I don't have the answers right at hand, but we are NOT 
"the greatest" when it comes to life span, infant mortality, health metrics like % of population not overweight. I don't know if we are "the greatest" at % of employment, or poverty levels, or educational levels. Being #1 at per capita incarcerations is not really the metric I would have us aspire to... 

2012-06-28 1:50 PM
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Subject: RE: "America is not the greatest country in the world..." ??

gearboy - 2012-06-28 10:20 AM What did he say that was untrue? If you are going to make blanket statements (such as "we're the greatest..."), you should be able to point to some kind of metrics that confirm that assertion. And frankly, I would rather be honest about the problems so we can tackle them, rather than beat our chests proclaiming our primacy while Rome burns around us (to mix my metaphors). And it seems to me, in that clip, he pointed out not only the problems, but the road to the solutions. 

Not necessarily untrue but definitely a distortion:  "178th in the world [out of about 200 countries] in infant mortality."  Think about that for a minute--does it make any sense at all?

In fact, the CIA factbook lists us at number 174, but I'm willing to give Aaron +/- 4.  Maybe "178th" just read better than "174th" at table read.  But still, does it make sense?

Who's number 1 in infant mortality?  Afghanistan.  Number 207?  Monaco.  So now it starts to make sense.  And it's a little hard to believe Aaron Sorkin didn't pick up on that.

And one of the reasons that we're not better than we are is that we're more likely than other countries to count premature babies at any stage as live births rather than stillborn.  As one article put it, some countries (including European) view a premature fetus as medical waste, U.S. views it as a life to be saved.  But if it expires after a few breaths, it goes against our stats.

That said, there's no absolute universal metric that can define "greatest country on earth" any more than there's a "best place to live" or "tastiest sandwich" or "greatest basketball player ever" (bad example--it's Magic of course).  And I'm not sure it matters.  So on that point I agree with the monologue, it's a pretty stupid question.

ETA:  Also, kind of disappointing that the grandkids of the Greatest Generation would turn out to be the Worst.Generation.Ever. ...



Edited by tjh 2012-06-28 1:53 PM
2012-06-28 1:56 PM
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Subject: RE: "America is not the greatest country in the world..." ??
tjh - 2012-06-28 2:50 PM

gearboy - 2012-06-28 10:20 AM What did he say that was untrue? If you are going to make blanket statements (such as "we're the greatest..."), you should be able to point to some kind of metrics that confirm that assertion. And frankly, I would rather be honest about the problems so we can tackle them, rather than beat our chests proclaiming our primacy while Rome burns around us (to mix my metaphors). And it seems to me, in that clip, he pointed out not only the problems, but the road to the solutions. 

Not necessarily untrue but definitely a distortion:  "178th in the world [out of about 200 countries] in infant mortality."  Think about that for a minute--does it make any sense at all?

In fact, the CIA factbook lists us at number 174, but I'm willing to give Aaron +/- 4.  Maybe "178th" just read better than "174th" at table read.  But still, does it make sense?

Who's number 1 in infant mortality?  Afghanistan.  Number 207?  Monaco.  So now it starts to make sense.  And it's a little hard to believe Aaron Sorkin didn't pick up on that.

And one of the reasons that we're not better than we are is that we're more likely than other countries to count premature babies at any stage as live births rather than stillborn.  As one article put it, some countries (including European) view a premature fetus as medical waste, U.S. views it as a life to be saved.  But if it expires after a few breaths, it goes against our stats.

That said, there's no absolute universal metric that can define "greatest country on earth" any more than there's a "best place to live" or "tastiest sandwich" or "greatest basketball player ever" (bad example--it's Magic of course).  And I'm not sure it matters.  So on that point I agree with the monologue, it's a pretty stupid question.

ETA:  Also, kind of disappointing that the grandkids of the Greatest Generation would turn out to be the Worst.Generation.Ever. ...

Oh Thank You!  This one makes my head explode when some one does the smarmy "Well the US is behind Cuba in infant mortality rates so their system must be so much better".  This type of reporting disparity goes for a large chunk of the BS WHO study that liberals like to spout about how our HC system is so bad.



2012-06-28 3:06 PM
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Subject: RE: "America is not the greatest country in the world..." ??
Goosedog - 2012-06-28 12:55 PM

ecozenmama - 2012-06-28 12:37 PM We are not the greatest country in the world, because to me that is a superior mentality that has taken the meaning of freedom and completely distorted it.  

I don't understand this.  If you don't agree, then fine, but it does beg the obvious question . . . .  However, I don't understand the suggestion that feeling that the US (or any country really) is the greatest in the world equates to a "superior mentality that has taken the meaning of freedom and completely distorted it."  It can be as simple as pride.  I do think the US is the greatest country in the world, but that certainly doesn't make me blind to her flaws or the attributes of other countries.  I wouldn't begrudge anyone else who feels their country is the greatest in the world.  How is feeling that your country is the greatest in the world distorting the meaning of freedom?

 

 

If you feel that it is, then that is completely fine, that is your right.  The way that I am looking at our country is from my perspective of an Egalitarian that we as a society are distorting the meaning of freedom.  Our country is fast becoming an oligarchy, and it isn't good.  I will refer to my "freedom" distortion in the following manner: 

Patriot Act, War on Terror, NDAA, DOMA, we buy and sell elections, the federal government stating they have authority of states rights such as immigration, etc.  

The country was founded with a system of checks and balances that were meant to keep our government inline.  When they start subverting their own rules, and people stop questioning the process of how these things are becoming laws, our freedoms have started becoming distorted.  

I am proud to be an American, but I am not going to turn a blind eye to what is happening in my own country.  We are being systematically divided which will end in the dismantling of our freedoms from the inside piece by piece.  

  

 
 
2012-06-28 3:23 PM
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Subject: RE: "America is not the greatest country in the world..." ??

It's obviously a subjective question that has no right answer.

Along with Goosedog I feel the US is the greatest country in the world, but I also think I live in the greatest city in the US and I live in the best neighborhood, I drive the best car, and my Trek bike is the best bike.

I think one reason that people often cite the US as being the best country is based on our GDP, and our Military.  If you've got the most money and biggest gun, its hard to argue that your not the best.

Despite all of our flaws, and internal disagreements as a nation, there is no other country that has more economic or military clout on this earth.

2012-06-28 3:32 PM
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Subject: RE: "America is not the greatest country in the world..." ??
tuwood - 2012-06-28 4:23 PM

It's obviously a subjective question that has no right answer.

Along with Goosedog I feel the US is the greatest country in the world, but I also think I live in the greatest city in the US and I live in the best neighborhood, I drive the best car, and my Trek bike is the best bike.

I think one reason that people often cite the US as being the best country is based on our GDP, and our Military.  If you've got the most money and biggest gun, its hard to argue that your not the best.

Despite all of our flaws, and internal disagreements as a nation, there is no other country that has more economic or military clout on this earth.

And yet we are increasingly LESS likely to move upwards as individuals. FRANCE has more economic mobility than we do - and it is certainly not because we are all already at the top of the chain. Hence the frustration that many on the left feel with us.

2012-06-28 3:35 PM
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Subject: RE: "America is not the greatest country in the world..." ??
tuwood - 2012-06-28 3:23 PM

Despite all of our flaws, and internal disagreements as a nation, there is no other country that has more economic or military clout on this earth.

China?

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