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2008-08-15 12:43 PM

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Subject: random thoughts about training
During my brick workout today, I was thinking about training and scientific stuff involved. FYI: I did a 24 mile ride and a 3-3/4 mile run this morning.

The first thing that I was thinking about is cycling cadence... Now, I want to point out that I understand that there are in fact benefits to a high cadence in an "easier gear". But, why is it that I can turn a bigger (or more difficult gear) at a lower cadence, bike a HIGHER speed and have a lower heart rate the whole time. Am I missing the point here? Isn't the point to have a lower HR? So, if I can go faster at a lower HR, why then is it more advisable to cycle at a higher cadence?

My second thought was about running. Why is it that I feel like a "better", more relaxed and more efficient runner after a lengthy ride? This seems rather strange to me.

So, please give me your input on either (both) of those thoughts. Either let me know I'm not crazy or tell me I am crazy. Thanks.


2008-08-15 1:14 PM
in reply to: #1606468

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Subject: RE: random thoughts about training

Cadence: Those who advocate high cadence do so with the understanding that it WILL raise your heart rate. What they claim, roughly, is that the higher cadence trades intensity of work for the leg muscles (per revolution) for higher cardio-vascular stress. If your cardiovascular system can handle the stress then, the theory goes, the tradeoff is worth it.

So presumably there is a happy medium between mashing and spinning out that is the point at which you have hit the correct balance between intensity of work of the leg muscles and stress on the cardio-vascular system. I'm guessing that the best way to find this point is to understand what you are looking for, then experiment.  It will of course depend on leg strength and the capacity of your cardio-vascular system.  (Armstrong has amazing cardio-vascular capacity, but not huge legs (relative to some other cyclists), which is why, I'd guess, it makes sense for him to spin fast.)

Running: Hard to say. Of course warming up generally makes running easier. I don't normally start feeling good in a marathon until around mile 5 or 6. But I guess without more info it's hard to say what is going on in your particular case. My guess is: you are biking with sufficiently low intensity that when you are done, your body is well warmed up (heart pumping, oxygen being delivered efficiently, fuel being burned efficiently), so that you are ready to run, but not biking so hard that you are dead for the run.

It doesn't always work that way. On one of my first few bricks, I went out way too hard on the bike. The subsequent run was awful. But in other cases, especially on shorter rides, I jump right into the run feeling great.



Edited by mdickson68 2008-08-15 1:17 PM
2008-08-15 2:26 PM
in reply to: #1606468

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Subject: RE: random thoughts about training
There's also a geeky kinesiology answer to the cadence question. Power, or work performed, is equal to force multiplied by velocity. At lower velocities, i.e. lower cadence, you produce a lot more torque (force). So the force is high, but the velocity is low.

As crank velocity, or cadence, goes up the force produced tends to decrease. Since power is the product of these two values, there is a point on that dropping force curve where the power is the greatest. So the higher velocity is making up for the decreasing force until you hit a point where it's counterproductive to spin any faster. This peak power point tends to be at about 1/3 of the maximum force your muscles can produce.

So, aerobically you might feel great and go pretty fast at a lower cadence but you're placing a greater burden on your muscles by doing so. If it works for you, though, I can't argue with that!
2008-08-15 2:42 PM
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Subject: RE: random thoughts about training

w/r/t the biking, I think if you are going faster in a harder gear, you may be spinning as fast as in the lower gear.  Without knowing the cadence you are running, it is hard to say what is going on with you. I find that I can never sustain the higher HR on the bike that I get on the run, which is why I can bike so much longer than I run.

On the run, I think that with longer runs you get into the rhythm or flow more which leaves you feeling more relaxed and efficient in the end. Plus there is the whole issue of getting warmed up (though I tend to feel warmed up with the first half mile or so)

2008-08-15 7:36 PM
in reply to: #1606850

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Subject: RE: random thoughts about training

aliclimb - 2008-08-15 2:26 PM There's also a geeky kinesiology answer to the cadence question. Power, or work performed, is equal to force multiplied by velocity. At lower velocities, i.e. lower cadence, you produce a lot more torque (force). So the force is high, but the velocity is low. As crank velocity, or cadence, goes up the force produced tends to decrease. Since power is the product of these two values, there is a point on that dropping force curve where the power is the greatest. So the higher velocity is making up for the decreasing force until you hit a point where it's counterproductive to spin any faster. This peak power point tends to be at about 1/3 of the maximum force your muscles can produce. So, aerobically you might feel great and go pretty fast at a lower cadence but you're placing a greater burden on your muscles by doing so. If it works for you, though, I can't argue with that!

There are studies done about optimal cadence for cyclists and interestingly enough there is no significant difference between lower 50 rpm and higher 110+ rpm (IIRC although the rpm ranges might be different) in terms of muscle fiber activation hence the suggestion that a natural self selected cadence is the most efficient way to pedal. E Coyle studied Lance A in and he suggested part of his success was to be able to sustain a higher cadence while generating a lot of power; this is been interpreted as higher cadence = better. But some studies suggest cadence is more a function of power (higher power output = higher cadence) and individual self selected cadence = optimal efficiency.  Furthermore I am looking at a couple of my power files from past rides and the torque doesn't change much in terms of cadence, it changes more in terms of power and efficiency. As my efficiency drops (as I get fatigued) I then tend to apply more torque to attempt sustain the same power output vs when non-fatigued.
2008-08-15 8:00 PM
in reply to: #1606468

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Subject: RE: random thoughts about training
This is great information everyone. Thanks!


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