total immersion success?

I am a proud convert to TI swimming, on my way to becoming a certified fish. :D

It has been very successful for me, but of course I still have a long way to go (as everyone does, because it's based on infinite progress).

I've been swimming a lot more frequently though since I started, like 4-6 times a week compared with 2-3 before, which I think makes a huge difference because you get so much more time for imprinting if you hit the pool more often. How often are you practicing?

I'd also practice a bit more in open water if the transition is proving hard for you - I know a lot of people who are extremely good swimmers in the pool but they seize up in OW - so even if you have the techniques down pretty good, practicing in OW still gives you a huge benefit that you can't mimic in any pool.

You said your times are slower - do you feel less tired though? Because if you are only a bit slower but your HR is much lower than I think that will help you immensely in the overall triathlon...my advice would be to stick with it but if it's really frustrating you maybe trying out a different method (or getting a partner to help you) might be best.

Edited by cam224 2009-08-06 1:27 AM

I did total immersion for 6 months, and it definitely got me going the distance faster than I thought. Only problem, was that I was going the distance, slow.

I spent nearly 2 months  "undoing" some of the big errors I learned from TI, and now I swim in a non-TI style, which means trying to be as flat as a barge (the natural rotation on the stroke is sufficient, as I was over-rolling), skipping the "sweet spot" drills which puts you into a huge over-rotated position, and doing a ton of pull buoy work to become more hydrodynamic (he says to avoid most pool toys.)

I don't mean to dump on TI - reality is that I would have likely made most of these errors anyway regardless of my original swim training, TI or not, as a rank beginner. 

For me however, the TI methods were not even close to adequate for developing a raceable swim form. Again though, if you're deathly afraid of the water, or really struggling after just a length or two in the pool, TI is a good place to start for sure. I wouldn't recommend it though to most swimmers who are able to cover the race distance and are looking for ways to get faster; there are a lot of mechanics in the pull, recovery, and head position, that are absolutely necessary, but too advanced for TI.

And in my opinion (keep in mind I'm a BOP swimmer, but I've improved a lot), the pull buoy was extraordinarily helpful for learning to swim with good body position. In my Ballys where I swim (read: no strong swimmers), I think 98% of the swimmers there would greatly benefit from using a pull buoy to streamline their body position and focus on a good pull. Cleaning up my stroke to the point where I could swim hard with a pull buoy yielded huge improvements as a novice swimmer for myself.
 

I'm still new to it, but I've found a lot of success with it.  I went from being totally knackered after a 300m swim, to swimming 1000m straight and not being the least bit tired.  I've also shaved 25 seconds per 100m off my time just by chanaging my stroke.  This was after going to a Masters group for a year with a fabulous coach!

I'm a believer.

It's done wonders for me.  The drills have greatly improved my balance and position in the water and over the past 6 mos of swimming 3x week for 1200-1800 yds my times have gone from over 2 min/100 to 1:40/100 sustainable and 1:20 for a 100 yd time trial.  Now, had I gotten lessons, or tried some other method maybe I'd be just as far or farther, I don't know, but I'm very pleased with my progress from simply watching a video a couple times and reading a few articles.  I have not seen a TI coach or done anything in depth.

TI was great to get me set up and correct in the water...hard work and countless laps got me faster. I no longer use all of TI, but i do still use a bunch of the drills during warm ups or cool downs to make sure i have not forgotten the basics!!

Best of luck with your swimming, there is no better feeling than swimming efficiently!!!

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Gailg- I kinda know what you mean, looking at the TI vids from terry laughlin, it seems like there is no other way to swim efficiently/correctly other than the TI way, however, given their success, it sounds like what they're saying can be substantiated from all the testimonies.Thanks all for the input. I was just taking a little survey to find out how successful the program actually was. I just swam a mile in 35 mins, not fast at all, but trying to cut it down as the days go by. I guess I was just wondering what types of drills have you guys been doing in addition to the TI drills given to improve your speed. And also, it seems like all the elite swimmers avoid the 2 flutter kick, but then again they are elite. Thanks again for your comments and support, they are very much appreciated.Oh by the by, have any of you been to a TI workshop, how helpful are they?? I was planning to go to one here in Los Angeles and just wanted some feedback before I go.

I am one of those fish. I swam as a teen but I wanted to re-learn free style because the stroke has changed significantly since the 80s' (head position, body rotation, body position in the water, etc..) so i read the TI book and watched the DVD. Then I took a swim clinic and learned some interesting facts. First and foremost the author of TI did not create the stroke. All he did was package the technique and write a book. The stroke itself is taught to every competitive swimmer, although there are some differences between a competitive stroke and the TI stroke. That being said I think TI is a good starting place, but following the book is not going to get you doing 1:20 100's or faster. You need a coach for that to work on your stroke on a continuing basis. The best thing to do is swim with a masters team. If you can find a good coach and a good team you can take your swimming to the next level. The reason this is important is swimming is ALL about technique. If the technique is not there, regardless of the yardage you put in you will never be as fast as you could be.

I think most of the people that are fishlike are comfortable in the water and have a good amount of body awareness that helps them perfect their technique. I don't think you are going to get that from a book or a few TI sessions. That is why working with a coach and swimming with a team is in my opinion the best way to improve.

That, I think, is key...most people can become decent swimmers with repetition and a little coaching, but it takes someone who truly knows their body, who knows what their lats and obliques should be contributing to the stroke and how to make it happen, to find a fishlike swimmer.

The TI techniques are simple enough, and thinking about the individual drills and what they're meant to accomplish intuitively makes sense.  But to put them in to action, and then to translate that to a fast, fluid stroke that can be maintained over ______ distance, takes strong body awareness. 

I've read TI and watched the DVD...over and over.  Being a beginner at the time I improved by leaps and bounds (basically going from a 2:10/100m swimmer to about 1:55-1:50/100--over 800m--in about 2 months), simply by understanding more of the swim stroke and how to put it into action.  But the past few months I've been stuck there, and I think that's more my inability to put it all together, because while I can't correct it all I know I'm doing some things wrong.

I think the key, as someone else mentioned, is finding a Masters class with a good coach.  I've had exactly one day of coaching--a 1 hour clinic with video--and found it extremely helpful.  Having that every week would do wonders, regardless of whether you've seen/read TI.

Congrats on the improvement, that is awesome!! Finding a masters team with a coach that can watch you and make suggestions is key. It is hard to figure out what you need to do to improve, however it is easy for someone who knows what they are doing to make suggestions.

Two suggestions that my coach has pointed out to me in the previous year have to do with my catch and making sure i push through the entire stroke and activate my triceps. Those two suggestions (which she said were common among tri-athletes) really helped improve my stroke. Now i concentrate on catching the water with my arm fully extended in front of me and push all the way through to bellow my hips. Without the help of someone on the pool deck i never would have known I needed to work on my catch and release.

I'll bet any good coach will be able to teach using any style of swimming, and be successful in helping their students improve. Nothing beats personalized instruction with an eye for detail.
 
However, having read the TI book in depth and watched the video as well, here are some critical things that are clearly glossed over, if not completely omitted in TI:
- Developing a great catch. Almost no discussion there about boomerang-shaped arm, etc.
- Breathing and head position for fast swimming.
- What do once you find your "sweet spot". Hint - he says for men, it's nearly on your back, but that's HUGELY over-rotating, and if you do that in your freestyle, you'll never go fast.
- Stroke recovery concepts.
- Developing a good pull. I was crossing midline a lot after TI, because a lot of the drills like the side float emphasize a midline arm position, which isn't optimal for a good catch. 

I never had any formal swimming training but I always did ok paddling about. When I started trying to do some actual training I found that I became winded very quickly and wound up stopping and panting at one end of the pool or the other. A friend loaned me the TI video and I gave it a try. I don't know about the strokes or body positioning, but it helped me a LOT with my breathing. I'm able to pound out 1000 meters without feeling winded or swallowing half the pool now.

I'm going to a TI workshop this Sunday  and will update you guys on how useful it is...should be interesting....

I'm not a fish. I really didn't know how to swim like most - just splashed around with head above water.

I started TI back in 2006 and it was a struggle to just learn how to put my face in the water and breath. Too many things to think about. I was fatigued at 15 minutes of swim and i covered maybe 200 meters.

2007 i took a TI weekend workshop and learned a lot.

Still, after 15-20 minutes of swim, I was exhausted. Something wasn't right.

I thought Sprint Tris would be the only thing I could do due to my swim fitness. I just couldn't relax, keep my HR down, etc. I was physically fit, could run for hours, could ride my bike well... I just could NOT last on a swim.

2008 the swim just got to me and that was it. I quit Triathlon.

2009, two months ago. On a whim, I decided to sign up for Oceanside HIM 3/27/2010.

My goal - be a strong swimmer and start training now.

I rewatched my TI video and practiced and I was swimming an hour with several rest periods.

a month into training, I'm swimming an hour plus with fewer rests.

3 weeks ago I was at 3:45 average/100 meters at 400meters (15 min).

I was swimming longer with less energy, but I wasn't swimming faster - my legs sank and I could only breath to one side.

Last week I watched: http://www.totalimmersion.net/blog/Perpetual-Motion-Freestyle---MIT...

It changed everything for some reason. I fixed the 'sink' and am conscious of fixing my legs when they do sink. (Superman)

Today I did my fastest 400 meters in 3 years in 11:03 ave 2:46/100 meters. This after a 400meter warmup. I was not winded and ended up doing another 800 meters for a mile today and 53 minutes in the pool.

Here's my point.

I'm not an expert. You don't graduate college a month after you start. You have to study, and work hard at it. I'm not where I want to be yet, but in two months time, after almost a year out of the water, it clicked. I went from August 2008 struggled for 100 meters and quitting triathlon IN THE MIDDLE OF A TRIATHLON (and I've never quit anything before) to last weeks open water swim for 1hr24min aprox 2400 meters.

I have nothing to compare TI to. This is all I know and I love the fact that I'm not dead after a mile swim and I can follow up with a 10K run.

I'm sold on TI. It's given me new life! It has given me confidence in knowing that a HIM swim is no problem now. 2 months ago - I could not sleep because I thought about the 1.2 mile swim. Now, I'm worried about the 56 mile ride - and that's the easiest of all 3 disciplines for me! I'm on a swim focused 16 week Olympic Training Plan right now and I'm way ahead of schedule on both the run and the swim!

Believe me - it will work (as any type of method will) if you work at it and do what they say! Practice the techniques and STOP when you are tired. Take long breaks if you have to just so that you can go 25 meters to practice the technique. If you're tired, that's where more of the bad habits will occur.

My goal was to do the 1.2 mile swim in 45 minutes which is 2:20/100s. I think I can do it in 40 min. now.

2006-2008 I did maybe 4 1-mile swims total with tons of rests at the pool. In two months time I've done several 1+ mile swims - two already in open water.

So in 2008 I would have answered this question differently. I would have said, TI didn't give me much success except to teach me how to swim- but it didn't satisfy my goals of a strong triathlon swimmer. Now, its taught me how to swim with confidence and I'm signed up for my first HIM and I've never even done an Olympic!



Edited by TriathleteNut 2009-08-08 1:34 AM

I took a one day private class at TIs swim studio 4 months before my first tri - IMLP.   Before the class I had been practicing swimming techniques I was taught in the past and had read the book and watched the DVDs and tried to improve before taking the class.  Before the class I was still struggling with swimming any distance.  I would do 1/2 mile and feel 'wiped'.  For me the hands on instrution was key to 'getting it'.

The coach explained that TI is front quadrant swimming like many of the pros use and not some revolutionary technique.  There might be some minor diferences but the priciples are the same.  It is put together in an easy to learn format with drills to emphasize proper form. 

I did the drills he suggested with NO breathing for a month, no workout over 1000 yards, and no more than a 1/2 hour in the pool.  I'd swim several strokes, stop and then start again.  He wanted me to get the form so he didn't recommend doing the breathing at this time.  I went back after a month for a 2 hour session and he then introduced the breathing techniques to me and my new plan had me increasing my yardage.

I really love swimming now!!  It has been 2 weeks since the IM and I have already been out several times for some relaxing 3 mile swims.  3 mile easy swims now take me about an hour and 20-24 minutes and I feel great when done.   I may not be a top swimmer but it doesn't wipe me out to go swimming and I find it relaxing.  I have found a new sport.

I doubt I would have gotten there without the hands on instruction.  I"m not sure I would have 'got it' with the books and DVDs alone but that is me.  YMMV.

Bob

With no freestyle experience at all 1 year ago I took the 2 day TI class.  I went from an exhasting 25 yards with a long recovery to swimming the IM I did last weekend at a 2:00/100 pace with pleanty of energy left for the rest of the race. 

I was only able to swim 2 days a week last winter, so I am not sure if my stuckness at 2:00/100 is due to only lack of time in the water or due to the TI style or due to my limited mastery of the stroke.  My IM swim was 1:24:xx so ya not fast, but it was my first IM and the TI stroke had me coming out of the water with a smile on my face and really ready to start the bike.  I may take the advanced TI class to see if I can improve on my speed now that I have the basics down and some swim endurance.  I am sure that I would need more coaching that is for sure, but there really are no coaches withn a hundred miles or so of any freestyle technique. 

So, ya TI can help you swim long.  The founder swims something like a 1:25-1:30 per 100 pace and is not young anymore.  So if properly executed I imagine one can get down around 1:30 pace with TI.  I just am not there yet with only a total of like 350,000 yards total freestyle in my life and a good chunck of that with some major flaws in the stroke related to not getting enough out of the 2 day clinic.  As of now I am ambivelent about which form to follow, but for a beginner, it will get you through the swim.   

I went the TI route a few winters ago. If you watched me swim, you may not see a true TI form, but I am 100% better swimmer now, and distance is not an issue. Highly recommend TI.

so i took the class the TI class and have to say that it was useful.  Though I knew a lot of the drills from book, watchin the instructor perform the stroke and then criticize my own stroke was a great learning experience.  She did say that I had a nice stroke, but then again, there were quite a few people behind waiting for their strokes to be criticized.  All that to say that TI so far has been really useful, and I am swimming more efficiently, but i guess not at the speed I would like to.  Just need to practice more and maybe ask phelps to pass the bong...=)

Interesting thread this one.

I've recently started to re-learn to swim, I was a fairly poor competitive swimmer as a youth, but competed at club level none the less. After several years of not swimming, I returned to the pool, essentially with the sole goal of doing triathlon.

I was sold on the the plan of not being whacked by the swim, in theory I want to come out the water fresh and ready to bike, not feeling as if I'd gone ten rounds with the gods of water.

I realised I fought the water, hoping this would get me there, in all honesty I was inefficient and always felt I could make it a better swim.

After hearing so much about TI I got the book n dvd, which I'm working my way through and really do feel impovement, and have even got my stroke count down to 13 for 25m (admittedly this is only one length)

For sure I'll be keeping with it, and although there are posters who say it slows them down, i think that if its making them more efficient, wouldn't speed come from more practice of efficiency?

While Im here, I do really struggle with Skater drill - does anyone have any advice?

i got the book and the dvd.

don't really swim much, just worked on the elbow bend and stroke.  after about 3-4 months, i went from a 1:50 / 100 yrd to a 1:25-1:30 / 100 yrds.

i have done a 400 yrds in 6:20 and swim a comfy 800 yrds in 12:50.  this is in z3.

yesterday i did 2 x 50 @ 36 seconds and 1 x 100 1:17.  i always try to do 200-300 yrd wu where i go VERY VERY slow and make sure i have the stroke down.  swiming more helps but if you see my logs i don't swim that much, usually 3 x week with 2 workouts at 2k yrds and 1 little more then that. 

if you saw my stroke before you would laugh and probably wonder how i could have swam .9 mile in 25 min in a triathlon to begin with.  which isn't a horrible time, but honestly it was just terrible.

maybe to get a further improvement it would take a coach for me but i really liked TI and i think its a pretty awsome especially for a newbie. 

There seems to be a lot of confused/unrealistic/misinformed expectations for TI.

An earlier poster had it correct-the author did not invent the stroke, he just invented the drills/book/seminars for it.  Variations of this stroke is widely used (and has been for awhile) by many (most/all?) competitive swimmers.  The overall concepts that he's attempting to teach are largely indisputable in my opinion:  use your larger, stronger muscle groups to propel yourself, make yourself as streamlined as possible at all times, take longer, more efficient, more powerful strokes (and less of them) than a bunch of short wimpy strokes.  If you can become streamlined, effiecient, and powerful without opening his book, then you don't need it.

A lot of people claim that they found much more improvement (than doing TI) when they turned to their local Master's team with a coach-I should hope so!  Reading a book at night will never replace a competent coach on deck watching you.  However, if you are just starting out and have no means to see a coach, I think that this is certainly better than flying solo. 

I coach our local master's swim team and realized that after a couple of weeks or moderately following the newer version of TI's drills many of the swimmer had a difficult time breathing and over-exaggerating the roll.  These newer drills were not ones that I had previously done seriously and had not expected this - it took a lot more hands-on coaching to undue some of these bizarre motions.  My point is, if you don't have a solid background in swimming I can see how the drills could potentially throw you off a bit.  For me, they were a nice change of scenery to work on body position/timing principles that I was already well aware of.  Ultimately, I prefer the older drills he advocated (found in this book  http://www.amazon.com/Total-Immersion-Revolutionary-Better-Faster/dp/0743253434/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1250258463&sr=8-1 .


These drill and principles can be used for faster swimmers-they just haved to be used in a proper manner.  No one will suggest that you should roll over onto your back and take a breath while slowly kicking if you want to maximize your speed.  However, making sure you are balanced in the water and comfortable gliding on your side while you reach forward is something almost everyone can benefit from.  I was a moderately successful swimmer when I was a youngster and I felt like these drills dramatically helped my swimming speed and endurance.

There you go-my thoughts on TI.  Thanks for reading

Edited by rowotter 2009-08-14 9:07 AM