Help me help my wife lose weight
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2010-05-18 9:24 AM |
Veteran 210 | Subject: Help me help my wife lose weight Ah yes, the touchy weight loss subject. My wife actually wants to lose weight. She works out regularly (3-4 times a week) but lacks in the diet area. She either eats horrible or goes too strict which shuts everything down. I know I need to support her in a positive way. What do I do? It seems like part of our lifestyle is taking our two young boys out for dinner at least once a week, maybe twice. This involves chips and salsa and the whole loaded calorie meals. I want to be supportive and suggest other things we can do, but I have a hard time with the subject because I don't want to have hurt feelings. ugh. I have thought of suggesting a personal trainer to keep her motivated. We both work several nights a week til 7pm but dinner at home should still be doable. I need to come up with other family activities that dont involve eating. I need to help her not feel bad about the time it takes to workout. Men or women chime in. Help. I'm talking 30lbs. Not a huge amount....or is that a huge amount? lol |
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2010-05-18 9:33 AM in reply to: #2865417 |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
2010-05-18 9:36 AM in reply to: #2865453 |
Champion 5376 PA | Subject: RE: Help me help my wife lose weight AcesFull - 2010-05-18 10:33 AM Write everything down. Screw the fancy diet, just write EVERYTHING down. Eating only real food helps. I use www.fatsecret.com, mostly because they have a free android (and I'm guessing iPhone) app that allows me to barcode scan my food. Real food has barcodes on it? Man, I'm doing it wrong. This apple must be fake! |
2010-05-18 9:40 AM in reply to: #2865417 |
New user 420 Charlotte, NC USA | Subject: RE: Help me help my wife lose weight Maybe you can institute something like "No Meat Mondays" or "No Starch Sundays" or something that the two of you can do together? If you have success, you can build on it and do both so that you both begin eating more fruits/veggies and less of the calorie-rich foods, and perhaps it becomes a lifestyle change. |
2010-05-18 9:46 AM in reply to: #2865417 |
Master 2167 Livonia, MI | Subject: RE: Help me help my wife lose weight If she works out regularly but struggles with the diet, I'm not sure a trainer is the way to go. Perhaps a nutritionist would be the motivator she needs. She or you can go to www.calorieking.com to help calculate her total calorie consumption, as well as her total daily intake of protein, carbs and fat. If you'd like more specifics on how to calculate the percentage of diet from each of these macronutrients to see if she's too heavy or too light in one area, I can give you that as well. This will help her have accountability for what she is eating. |
2010-05-18 10:04 AM in reply to: #2865499 |
Master 1736 Midcoast Maine | Subject: RE: Help me help my wife lose weight noelle1230 - 2010-05-17 10:46 PM If she works out regularly but struggles with the diet, I'm not sure a trainer is the way to go. Perhaps a nutritionist would be the motivator she needs. X2...and start tracking what goes in. Every bite. Something else - if you can, have her think about how hungry she actually is before she eats...if there isn't physicial discomfort (tummy rumbling), she may be eating out of habit/boredom instead of because she is actually hungry. (I don't know - just making some wild assumptions here) Edited by itsallrelative_Maine 2010-05-18 10:06 AM |
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2010-05-18 10:22 AM in reply to: #2865417 |
Pro 4277 Parker, CO | Subject: RE: Help me help my wife lose weight going out to eat 2x per week and having young children. both those things add calories to your diet! we have 2-young children as well. we try to limit going out to 1x per week, that includes orderring pizza or take-out. but I have to admit, and maybe I'm a bad parent for having this stuff around the house for the kids, but chips, brownies, chocolate, etc. all the stuff kids crave, we also crave as adults. we are trying to keep that crap out of the house for the kids as well as ourselves...but it's not as easy as some people think. anyway, you should look around the house and see what is getting consumed. my wife and I figured out that we went through a half-gallon of ice cream last week that was bought for the kids (who are skinny). Anyway, my son or daughter never touched the ice cream...who took in all those extra calories? |
2010-05-18 10:29 AM in reply to: #2865417 |
Pro 6767 the Alabama part of Pennsylvania | Subject: RE: Help me help my wife lose weight x whatever on managing the diet end rather than the workout. I would not sweat too much about 2 meals a week. When I was doing ultra-low fat dietary approaches (under 20 g daily; only "real food", nothing made artificially fat free except for dairy products like skim milk or part skim cheeses), I was allowed 2 meals a week that I could ignore. That translated into eating "right" 90% of the time, which is fine. My top suggestion is to take over the cooking if you are skilled enough in the kitchen. Right now, mrs gearboy and I are doing the DASH diet (Dietary Approaches to Stop Hypertension) for me, but I do the cooking. It is basically a low salt diet, but the book I got has menus and some recipes for 4 weeks. Because I am carefully controlling portions, I have also lost neat 10 pounds since the beginning of the month. A lot was water (since I am eating very little salt), but nearly half was fat. The book tells you portion sizes to get to a 2,000, 1,600, and 1,200 calorie diet. By weighing and measuring food, I am getting much more accurate portion sizes. Writing everything down can work too, if you are willing to do the math and figure out how many calories you consumed. But having it pre-planned is kind of nice. Other non-food family activities could be family game nights, family walks or bike rides, or craft nights (puzzles, or tie-dye, or making things from kits). |
2010-05-18 10:31 AM in reply to: #2865472 |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
2010-05-18 10:38 AM in reply to: #2865417 |
Extreme Veteran 3177 | Subject: RE: Help me help my wife lose weight Consider having you both join weightwatchers together. When my wife was able to do it (go to meetings etc) she was able to do a good job of loosing a good amount of weight and keeping it off. I have never done it but it worked really well for her and several other people I know. If you offer to join with her then it is something you can work on together and it does involve analyzing your food for nutritional content so she can see what she is really eating. An option to approach, instead of eating out, is a picnic. Especially as the super nice weather season is coming upon us. It is staying light out longer too. It would be easy to pac a few healthy sandwiches, some fruit, maybe yogurt, and throw in a couple of cookies as a dessert and you are good to go. The kids and you all can eat healthy outside and then spend time playing together to work it all off. |
2010-05-18 10:45 AM in reply to: #2865417 |
Supersonicus Idioticus 2439 Thunder Bay, ON | Subject: RE: Help me help my wife lose weight Weight Watchers. Seriously. It's simple, it's online, it works even without exercise. Do it whole heartedly - get a weighing scale, keep track of everything. When you realize you've lost 4lb after two weeks, you'll keep up with it. Plus, they suggest really good meal ideas: Ways to make french fries with only using the oil from cooking spray. Ways to make REALLY REALLY GOOD chocolate deserts with low calories. Sometimes it actually saves time. For the ~$60 to try it out, you can't say no. |
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2010-05-18 10:50 AM in reply to: #2865417 |
Master 2083 Houston, TX | Subject: RE: Help me help my wife lose weight Had same issue recently. We found that most of our problem was in our lifestyle. eating out once or twice a week, keeping junk food in the house, not a full workout schedule, poor food choices etc........ Here's what we did, and it may not work for you, but something I say might, who knows. We found that if one person was on a diet and the other wasn't, then it just led to failure. So we both agreed and attacked it as a team. Her problem was my problem and my problem was her problem. We don't talk about weight, we talk about calories. No pounds. Pounds aren't the issue, it's the calories. This seems to make it a little more "acceptable". The one thing that holds true across teh board for weight is "you have to burn more calories than you take in". No matter how you slice it, that is what it is. There are a million different formulas for doing it, but they all come back to this one truism. And so we agreed on our new rules: : 1) the whole house changed their dietary habits. candy, chips, cokes, cakes, etc..... went directly in the trash. We do not buy them anymore because if they are there, I will eat them. Ironically I am the only one who will admit to eating them. I'm not the only one to eat them. We have one thing that we all agree on that we keep around, ice cream. 2) we buy all organic, and all whole foods. virtually nothing out of a box (we don't make our own gluten free organic pasta, we buy that). we have food scale that we used until we could eyeball the portion sizes. 3) ABSOLUTELY NO FAST FOOD 4) we spent the money on a metabolic rate analysis test to set in stone what her burn rate was and what her intake rate could be. WROTE EVERYTHING DOWN THAT SHE ATE FOR A WEEK and made dietary adjustments from there to set calorie intake to the appropriate level. This was significant because we found out her metabolic rate was much slower than we had anticipated. on a normal day she will only burn 1,200 calories (age and kids are harsh on women) so we had to set her cal intake at 1,000 and up her workout volume so that she would burn 3,500 cal per week (or 1 lb per week) 5) set up heart rate zones and had a personal trainer set up work out necessary for 3500 calorie per week burn. (bought heart rate monitors so she can make sure she is burning the right fat to sugar ratio for the workout) 6) All snacks are fruits or vegetables and we eat 5 times a day, sometimes 6. 7) we cheat on the weekends. by cheating I mean we pay no attention to calories or number of meals, but everything is still organic and whole foods. This actually usually results in a calorie reduction for me. I think for her too. we get caught up in other things and forget to eat one or two of our meals. 8) workout 5 times a week. no more, no less. minimum workout is 1 hr. I go at 9 at night she goes any time she likes during the day. She won't tell me how much she has lost, but I can see she has lost weight. I have lost 20 lbs. on her diet, but it's more of a lifestyle shift away from crappy processed foods. I think 30 lbs is a decent chunk for most women, ESPECIALLY when you get to the "last 10". They say that's the hardest....... and I would think it's true. My wife knows my world revolves around her (and our 3 kids), so I get away with saying whatever I want, but I think if she feels like you're in it with her and you stay away from "weight" or "fat", and you communicate that you are "supportive"/"proud"/"admire her work ethic" (these are words I actually use) then you should probably get a pass on some comments. One thing the metabolic rate analysis allowed me to do is say "there are no excuses. You have all the tools and the knowledge you need to accomplish whatever it is you want to accomplish. If you're not losing weight, you know the reasons why. Either your calorie intake is too high or your workouts are too short. Fix one of them." When it's there in black and white, there aren't many excuses you can make. Edited by jgaither 2010-05-18 11:04 AM |
2010-05-18 11:03 AM in reply to: #2865417 |
Payson, AZ | Subject: RE: Help me help my wife lose weight +whatever on recording and weighing food. It seems like it would be a pain in the arse but once you get into the routine of it and most of your foods are in whatever tool your using it becomes quite easy. Anytime I start to gain a little I go back to that. One benefit of it is you'd be amazed what you won't eat cause you have to record it. Make healthy meals that last a few meals so that you have those quick go to meals in the fridge when you are working late (or freeze them so you don't get sick of eating the same thing for the 3rd time that week). If you have something you can heat up quickly in 5 minutes your less likely to eat something unhealthy. Weight Watchers online is awesome as well. I found that on WW though with a HIM training plan it was not giving me enough calories (for a while I did WW and tracked calories just to compare). But, previous to that it was perfect. |
2010-05-18 11:49 AM in reply to: #2865417 |
Veteran 210 | Subject: RE: Help me help my wife lose weight These are all great suggestions. The number one thing I see is track it. We can do that. What about going too low? I know she has gone as low as 800 calories in a day. Where do you get metabolic analysis done? Local gym have something like that? Thanks for the many great suggestions. |
2010-05-18 12:03 PM in reply to: #2865417 |
Champion 7554 Albuquerque, New Mexico | Subject: RE: Help me help my wife lose weight Do you sense that the root of the problem is eating too much food, or eating the wrong food choices? The strategies for dealing with each are different. Too much food is about portion control, and some pretty simple tricks, like using a smaller plate, bowl, or cup and avoiding "seconds" (especially those "seconds" that come as part of the first serving). The wrong foods is about substitution (and portion control). |
2010-05-18 12:13 PM in reply to: #2865905 |
Master 2167 Livonia, MI | Subject: RE: Help me help my wife lose weight rxman - 2010-05-18 12:49 PM These are all great suggestions. The number one thing I see is track it. We can do that. What about going too low? I know she has gone as low as 800 calories in a day. Where do you get metabolic analysis done? Local gym have something like that? Thanks for the many great suggestions. 800 is WAY too low. A general range for an active woman is 1400-1800. Some may even need more depending on her height, activity level, how overweight she is (I'm suspecting she's not too overweight). How far is she from her suggested weight, how tall is she and how many calories roughly is she burning per week? If you want to find her specific RMR or resting metabolic rate, some local gyms have tests available for around $100. Otherwise, we can come up with a pretty decent guess for suggested daily calories based on the questions above. |
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2010-05-18 12:24 PM in reply to: #2865905 |
Master 2083 Houston, TX | Subject: RE: Help me help my wife lose weight rxman - 2010-05-18 11:49 AM These are all great suggestions. The number one thing I see is track it. We can do that. What about going too low? I know she has gone as low as 800 calories in a day. Where do you get metabolic analysis done? Local gym have something like that? Thanks for the many great suggestions. We're members at lifetime fitness (local Gym), so that's where she got her metabolic rate done, but if there isn't one near you, then you can check around to different sports medicine facilities, ask your local tri shop. I would think, because most in Houston do, that any place that will do a Lactate Threshold test can run a metabolic test too. If your calorie intake is too low your body will respond by storing fat. It thinks it's getting starved and responds accordingly. Her metabolism will drop also. You are better off focusing on activities that will increase her metabolism (reduce stress, eat smaller amounts more often, exercise more, whole foods, exercise same volume just break up to twice a day, etc.....) and keep the calorie intake at a reasonable level. For example in my wife's situation burn 1,200 per day; it would be better for her to take in 1,200 cal per day and increase her workouts to 500 cal burned than it would be to reduce her calories to 700 and not exercise. The last thing most people need to do is go hungry. If you're hungry, EAT. An apple can be very filling and it's only like 50 calories. I burn 50 calories farting. |
2010-05-18 2:43 PM in reply to: #2865417 |
Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
2010-05-18 2:48 PM in reply to: #2865717 |
Master 1903 Portland, Oregon | Subject: RE: Help me help my wife lose weight jgaither - 2010-05-18 8:50 AM Had same issue recently. We found that most of our problem was in our lifestyle. eating out once or twice a week, keeping junk food in the house, not a full workout schedule, poor food choices etc........ Here's what we did, and it may not work for you, but something I say might, who knows. We found that if one person was on a diet and the other wasn't, then it just led to failure. So we both agreed and attacked it as a team. Her problem was my problem and my problem was her problem. We don't talk about weight, we talk about calories. No pounds. Pounds aren't the issue, it's the calories. This seems to make it a little more "acceptable". The one thing that holds true across teh board for weight is "you have to burn more calories than you take in". No matter how you slice it, that is what it is. There are a million different formulas for doing it, but they all come back to this one truism. And so we agreed on our new rules: : 1) the whole house changed their dietary habits. candy, chips, cokes, cakes, etc..... went directly in the trash. We do not buy them anymore because if they are there, I will eat them. Ironically I am the only one who will admit to eating them. I'm not the only one to eat them. We have one thing that we all agree on that we keep around, ice cream. 2) we buy all organic, and all whole foods. virtually nothing out of a box (we don't make our own gluten free organic pasta, we buy that). we have food scale that we used until we could eyeball the portion sizes. 3) ABSOLUTELY NO FAST FOOD 4) we spent the money on a metabolic rate analysis test to set in stone what her burn rate was and what her intake rate could be. WROTE EVERYTHING DOWN THAT SHE ATE FOR A WEEK and made dietary adjustments from there to set calorie intake to the appropriate level. This was significant because we found out her metabolic rate was much slower than we had anticipated. on a normal day she will only burn 1,200 calories (age and kids are harsh on women) so we had to set her cal intake at 1,000 and up her workout volume so that she would burn 3,500 cal per week (or 1 lb per week) 5) set up heart rate zones and had a personal trainer set up work out necessary for 3500 calorie per week burn. (bought heart rate monitors so she can make sure she is burning the right fat to sugar ratio for the workout) 6) All snacks are fruits or vegetables and we eat 5 times a day, sometimes 6. 7) we cheat on the weekends. by cheating I mean we pay no attention to calories or number of meals, but everything is still organic and whole foods. This actually usually results in a calorie reduction for me. I think for her too. we get caught up in other things and forget to eat one or two of our meals. 8) workout 5 times a week. no more, no less. minimum workout is 1 hr. I go at 9 at night she goes any time she likes during the day. She won't tell me how much she has lost, but I can see she has lost weight. I have lost 20 lbs. on her diet, but it's more of a lifestyle shift away from crappy processed foods. I think 30 lbs is a decent chunk for most women, ESPECIALLY when you get to the "last 10". They say that's the hardest....... and I would think it's true. My wife knows my world revolves around her (and our 3 kids), so I get away with saying whatever I want, but I think if she feels like you're in it with her and you stay away from "weight" or "fat", and you communicate that you are "supportive"/"proud"/"admire her work ethic" (these are words I actually use) then you should probably get a pass on some comments. One thing the metabolic rate analysis allowed me to do is say "there are no excuses. You have all the tools and the knowledge you need to accomplish whatever it is you want to accomplish. If you're not losing weight, you know the reasons why. Either your calorie intake is too high or your workouts are too short. Fix one of them." When it's there in black and white, there aren't many excuses you can make. This. please read this again. Seriously. I was your wife in 2006. I thought I was eating well. I thought I was exercising enough. I got a trainer 2xweek for a year. I lost 50# got in GREAT shape and didn't ever get hurt (due to over training or what have you). My trainer was great for nutrition info and helped me set goals, nagged me for food logs when I needed it, gave me the "you-ate-what???" lectures as needed... Everything that my husband could not do because he was, well, my husband. It was the best investment ever. I gained about 10 back (no trainer no food log, love food and sometimes I'm a lazy butt), but now have the tools/knowledge to do it myself. Food log is my key. I don't lose weight if I don't keep a food log. At our house, we have a '2 meals free' rule. We really like to eat out, so one is our friday night date, and often my family wants to have breakfast out on the weekend. I can have whatever I want for those two meals. I can look forward to having something really good and not having to 'count it'. Then its easier to toe the line the rest of the time. Best of luck to your wife. If she'd like to talk about my trainer experience or what worked for me, pm me for my email. Edited by ell-in-or 2010-05-18 2:48 PM |
2010-05-18 9:07 PM in reply to: #2865417 |
Expert 1215 Austin, TX | Subject: RE: Help me help my wife lose weight I lost a bunch of weight in a short period. My wife got very jealous. I tried to be supportive and helpful. I ended up realizing I was digging a DEEP hole for myself. My takeaway from this was: you wife must really want to lose the weight. Not talk about losing it; but truly, sincerely want to lose the weight. If she is not commited to losing the weight, this will be a very touchy subject. |
2010-05-18 9:22 PM in reply to: #2866006 |
Pro 3932 Irvine, California | Subject: RE: Help me help my wife lose weight jgaither - 2010-05-18 10:24 AM rxman - 2010-05-18 11:49 AM These are all great suggestions. The number one thing I see is track it. We can do that. What about going too low? I know she has gone as low as 800 calories in a day. Where do you get metabolic analysis done? Local gym have something like that? Thanks for the many great suggestions. We're members at lifetime fitness (local Gym), so that's where she got her metabolic rate done, but if there isn't one near you, then you can check around to different sports medicine facilities, ask your local tri shop. I would think, because most in Houston do, that any place that will do a Lactate Threshold test can run a metabolic test too. If your calorie intake is too low your body will respond by storing fat. It thinks it's getting starved and responds accordingly. Her metabolism will drop also. You are better off focusing on activities that will increase her metabolism (reduce stress, eat smaller amounts more often, exercise more, whole foods, exercise same volume just break up to twice a day, etc.....) and keep the calorie intake at a reasonable level. For example in my wife's situation burn 1,200 per day; it would be better for her to take in 1,200 cal per day and increase her workouts to 500 cal burned than it would be to reduce her calories to 700 and not exercise. The last thing most people need to do is go hungry. If you're hungry, EAT. An apple can be very filling and it's only like 50 calories. I burn 50 calories farting. ROFL! I'm pretty sure I don't want to be in the same room when you let loose with that one! |
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2010-05-19 6:30 AM in reply to: #2866006 |
Expert 1456 Central New Jersey | Subject: RE: Help me help my wife lose weight rxman - 2010-05-18 11:49 AM >If your calorie intake is too low your body will respond by storing fat. It thinks it's getting starved and responds accordingly. Her metabolism will drop also. Really? Then explain to me how people in parts of Africa or _____ (pic the country) aren't overweight. If your calorie intake is too low, you WILL lose weight. HOWEVER, study after study shows that if your calorie intake is too low, you tend to overeat when you do eat, even if it is "healthy" food (portion size). Only 2 things that impact metabolism are age (it slows as we get older, and activity, can make it work harder). Others are just myths that have been passed along for years. To the OP - Having been the overweight wife, she has to WANT to do this. I seriously doubt she wants to be overweight. Most of us that have been overweight didn't get there just because of the food. We eat because we are ______________ (fill in the emotion, happy, sad, stressed, treat ourselves after day with kids etc). Portion sizes, tracking and picnics instead of fast food are great starts (and I also agree Weight Watchers works, it did for me) Lani |
2010-05-19 6:41 AM in reply to: #2865472 |
Champion 6503 NOVA - Ironic for an Endurance Athlete | Subject: RE: Help me help my wife lose weight Pector55 - 2010-05-18 9:36 AM AcesFull - 2010-05-18 10:33 AM Write everything down. Screw the fancy diet, just write EVERYTHING down. Eating only real food helps. I use www.fatsecret.com, mostly because they have a free android (and I'm guessing iPhone) app that allows me to barcode scan my food. Real food has barcodes on it? Man, I'm doing it wrong. This apple must be fake! |
2010-05-19 9:33 AM in reply to: #2867531 |
Master 2083 Houston, TX | Subject: RE: Help me help my wife lose weight wwlani - 2010-05-19 6:30 AM rxman - 2010-05-18 11:49 AM >If your calorie intake is too low your body will respond by storing fat. It thinks it's getting starved and responds accordingly. Her metabolism will drop also. Really? Then explain to me how people in parts of Africa or _____ (pic the country) aren't overweight. If your calorie intake is too low, you WILL lose weight. HOWEVER, study after study shows that if your calorie intake is too low, you tend to overeat when you do eat, even if it is "healthy" food (portion size). Only 2 things that impact metabolism are age (it slows as we get older, and activity, can make it work harder). Others are just myths that have been passed along for years. To the OP - Having been the overweight wife, she has to WANT to do this. I seriously doubt she wants to be overweight. Most of us that have been overweight didn't get there just because of the food. We eat because we are ______________ (fill in the emotion, happy, sad, stressed, treat ourselves after day with kids etc). Portion sizes, tracking and picnics instead of fast food are great starts (and I also agree Weight Watchers works, it did for me) LaniBecause they stay at a depressed level for starters. If you take most other countries, they live dramatically different lifestyles and eat dramatically different foods. If you bring other countries into the discussion, then you get a whole lot deeper into the issue than is probably necessary. Activity levels, transportation, geographical access to food, monetary access to food, cultural food choices, nutritional densities of those choices, farming, genetics, etc............. You won't be comparing an apple to an apple. I believe you are correct that Age and activity are the only things that effect METABOLISM. I incorrectly grouped how the body stores and produces energy into that category. Mainly because I thought it was the same thing. But maybe not. However, other things affect energy levels in the body. Hormone levels and the secretion of said hormones are a response to a variety of stimuli. i.e stress causes the body to secrete higher levels of cortisol which can create excess glucose. If unused the glucose will be stored as fat. just as an example. IMHO it's not necessary to starve yourself in order to lose weight. You are correct that if you reduce your calorie intake enough you WILL lose weight. But realistically most NORMAL Americans will not stay on an 800 calorie per day diet for the rest of their lives. If they did, then yes they would lose weight until their bodies adapted to either 1) burn less calories during activity 2) consume muscle to supply the caloric shortfall 3) stay in a tired state limiting activity effectively reducing activity to a 800 expenditure. However, many Americans will go on a limited calorie restricted diet that will teach their bodies to store food when it is fortunate enough to get it. Once they come off of it, many creep back to their old ways and the "yo-yo diet" cycle starts. The point that I was trying to communicate was simply find out what metabolic rate is, find out what caloric intake is, set intake at a relatively small deficit and increase physical activity, once you get to your acceptable weight you will have to either reduce caloric expenditure or increase caloric intake back to equilibrium. But something as drastic as that, which most likely won't be sustained, is a bad idea because it trains the body to store instead of burn. Edited by jgaither 2010-05-19 9:45 AM |
2010-05-19 1:59 PM in reply to: #2865417 |
Master 3546 Millersville, MD | Subject: RE: Help me help my wife lose weight I'm with those who say the solution is in changing your beliefs, not your behaviors, with respect to food first. I'd suggest "the end of overeating" as a starting place. Very excellent book. PS - I've lost nearly 40 pounds without really trying since reading it. Once calorie-intense foods are actually gross to you (which is a belief) not enticing, you generally won't eat them. |
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