General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Bike Position - Comments Please Rss Feed  
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2011-01-06 1:13 AM

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Subject: Bike Position - Comments Please
Hi everyone out there. I would really appreciate any simple suggestions regarding my position on my bike. I'm new to triathlons and currently training for my third Sprint Distance. I'm wondering if I should raise the height of my seat a little to become more aerodynamic - although I am very comfortable with this set up. I welcome any comments...



(jsw_pict3674.jpg)



(jsw_pict3668.jpg)



(jsw_pict3661.jpg)



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2011-01-06 1:46 AM
in reply to: #3281292

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Subject: RE: Bike Position - Comments Please
Sorry about the pics - I haven't worked out how many pixels equals 100k... will keep trying to suss it out and post some bigger photos when I get it right! Or, here's a thought - could you please tell me how to do this?!

Edit - there, that's better... I've sorted out the pics to the right size now.

Edited by inspiration 2011-01-06 1:59 AM
2011-01-06 2:23 AM
in reply to: #3281292

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Subject: RE: Bike Position - Comments Please
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9c_5Pkimb64&feature=related



I used this and found it helped. I too felt comfortable but realised that a few minor adjustments make a difference.

It looks like you need to raise your seat and move your cleats forward.
2011-01-06 2:28 AM
in reply to: #3281292

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Regular
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Essex, England
Subject: RE: Bike Position - Comments Please
I agree you could raise your seat. Make sure you do it in small steps to avoid any strains. 10mm would do for a start. Also if possible I would slide your seat forward on the rails a touch so you aren't stretching so far for the aerobars. This will help open your hip angle as well which is good for running off the bike.
2011-01-06 6:06 AM
in reply to: #3281292

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Subject: RE: Bike Position - Comments Please
You need to raise your seat, while you should have some bending at the knee, you do not get enough extension to get full power. I would say that you're probably giving up 5-10W right there.

Second thing you need to do is to drop the front a bit lower. You're not getting much benefit from using the aerobars compared to the drops at this point, simply sitting up too high for that. You should try to get your back more perpendicular to the ground.
2011-01-06 6:58 AM
in reply to: #3281354

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Master
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Subject: RE: Bike Position - Comments Please
audiojan -  You should try to get your back more perpendicular to the ground.


I'm no expert, but you meant parallel right? Smile 


2011-01-06 7:06 AM
in reply to: #3281406

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Subject: RE: Bike Position - Comments Please
rsmoylan - 2011-01-06 7:58 AM

audiojan -  You should try to get your back more perpendicular to the ground.


I'm no expert, but you meant parallel right? Smile 


Oh.... yes I do. :-)
2011-01-06 8:20 AM
in reply to: #3281292

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Subject: RE: Bike Position - Comments Please
You look like me when I got my first fit, which was bad..but didn't know it. My next tri I had no power on the bike and felt like I was totally out of shape. My pro bike coach told me to raise it a good 5 inches, which we ended up raising it a tad more.  This will feel weird at first but opened up my legs allot more, plus its easier on the back..which your back looks a tad off..maybe to hunched over. This will bring your hips up and sort of give you a downward feel on the aero bars. I think your seat or aero bars at not aligned either.  You are sitting on the back part of the seat, at least from pics.  In an ideal setup, you should have the back part of the bike seat exposed because you are forward more on the nose.  On a side note, I ended up getting a Cobb bike seat just for comfort issue. However, it has measurement instructions based on arm and inseam lenghts so your seat height and seat to stem length is correct.  You might want to go to his Website for the video or get a new seat.  For me, the Cobb seat reconfirmed my seat height and seat to stem lenght.  Also, he pointed out seat angle which was a new point for me because I was getting numb hands so I'm playing with the seat angle to help this. (my pic has the bad bike fit)


Edited by chenny 2011-01-06 8:21 AM
2011-01-06 8:22 AM
in reply to: #3281292

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Subject: RE: Bike Position - Comments Please
As others have said, raise the seat some. That will also do a lot to take the rounding out of your back. You also look a bit stretched out in the shoulders. If your clip-ons have the adjustment, bring them back a bit (difficult to tell from the photos, but it looks like first generation Scott clip-ons and DH Bar pads, in which case you don't have the adjustability).

I'd advise against bringing the seat forward first. It can be done, but brings your weight forward on a bike that was not designed for that. Not that it's going to fall apart, but the handling can get a bit nervous. You could drop the stem down in the steerer tube (easy to do with the quill-type stem), but as with the seat height, do it in small increments. You head position in the first pic looks pretty good.
2011-01-06 8:34 AM
in reply to: #3281292

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Champion
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Subject: RE: Bike Position - Comments Please
I agree with the others -- seat too low and you are stretched out.  Whether the front end is too low depends on how high your seat ends up and how aggressive you want to (or can) be.
2011-01-06 11:06 AM
in reply to: #3281292

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St Louis, Missouri
Subject: RE: Bike Position - Comments Please

my 2 cents. Go to your LBS and spend the $50-$70 and get fitted. They will get you dialed in just right. Better than guessing.

Option #2: do some searches on bike fitting, then make a protractor and compass out of cardboard and a ruler and  have your daughter check your fit angles.  It will be almost as good as a fitting.



2011-01-06 11:23 AM
in reply to: #3282182

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Subject: RE: Bike Position - Comments Please
halfmarathondon - 2011-01-06 12:06 PM

my 2 cents. Go to your LBS and spend the $50-$70 and get fitted. They will get you dialed in just right. Better than guessing.

Option #2: do some searches on bike fitting, then make a protractor and compass out of cardboard and a ruler and  have your daughter check your fit angles.  It will be almost as good as a fitting.



I understand that a professional fitting is important.  But with this bike I wouldn't waste the money.  Why go in for a fitting when with the quill stem it can only be moved vertical, unless they can track down a different length compatible stem for her to use.  Like someone else mentioned, unless she wants to buy a new set of aerobars those are not adjustable either.  She can get seat height in tolerance by doing a little research and coming here of course  

How much would you invest in the bike that's pictured?  I don't think it's worth 75 bucks to raise the seat a little and drop the quill stem a little.  That's about all the adjustablity that she has outside of pushing the saddle forward.

Edited by mktoson 2011-01-06 11:50 AM
2011-01-07 8:23 AM
in reply to: #3282242

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Subject: RE: Bike Position - Comments Please
Not trying to be snobby but I agree with mktoson. It looks like an old road bike with clip ons. I can't tell if its alumun or steal..but the lines look very straight (down /top /forks/seat stays).  I don't see any carbon on the forks or the seat stays.  I still question the safety risk of putting full clip ons on road bike and with the proper position.  When I had this done on my old road bike, it put more weight on the front wheel.   Probably better just to raise the seat a bit, move it if you need to, and buy an aero helmet.  Saw this post somewhere.

http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/how-aero-is-aero-19273
2011-01-07 8:49 PM
in reply to: #3281292

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Subject: RE: Bike Position - Comments Please
Wow! Thanks for all the advice. I lifted my seat a bit and put the cleats more forward. I agree how I am stretched out to reach the aero bars, but I have my seat as far forward as it will go. (The disadvantages in owning a cheap ol' bike!) Maybe I should try to sit more forward on the seat? Do you think I ought to raise the seat even more? Here's some updated photos.... I'll do more research in the meantime to see what other adjustments I can make. It's great to be part of BT and have access to so many helpful tips and suggestions... thanks everyone!

Edited by inspiration 2011-01-07 8:52 PM




(jsw_pict3723.jpg)



(jsw_pict3730.jpg)



(jsw_pict3728.jpg)



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2011-01-07 8:56 PM
in reply to: #3285876

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Subject: RE: Bike Position - Comments Please
Your seat is still too low. It needs to be raised a lot. Probably at least 5cm. Maybe twice that. Once that's done it will be easier to look at other aspects. I can tell you that you need to learn to tip your pelvis forward which will "lengthen" you.

But first things first. Raise that seat. You want a knee angle of 145-150 degrees.

scott
2011-01-07 9:09 PM
in reply to: #3281292

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Subject: RE: Bike Position - Comments Please

Agree that the seat is still too low.

And when you take pictures...make sure your feet are at the 12 and 6 oclock positions...with the foot at 6 oclock facing the camera.  That can give people a better idea of when your seat is high enough. 

Also try to make sure you're in the same comfortable position when you take these pictures.  I'm not sure how you are balancing on your bike without something/someone holding you up...but you notice the extreme difference in elbow angle from the first and third picture you most recently posted.  You are obviously sitting differently in each picture...not sure if it's because you're trying to balance against the wall or on the grass.



Edited by tri808 2011-01-07 9:12 PM


2011-01-07 9:16 PM
in reply to: #3281292

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Fountain Hills, AZ
Subject: RE: Bike Position - Comments Please
This is not fit advice ....

...but please have local bike shop check your stem. (You probably already know this ... I'm sure you already know this ... the stem connects the handlebar to the frame.) Unless that's an aftermarket threaded stem with a long gooseneck, it may be raised too high (ie not inserted deep enough into the head tube on the frame). One way to check is to look and see if the engraved line and logo logo on the chromed stem  that says " Minimum Insertion" is visible. It should not be visible, or should just barely be visible. There's an expansion-nut down at the bottom of the vertical gooseneck stem that snugs into the threaded fork steerer ... you really want the expansion-nut to secure in place below the level of the threads on the fork steerer. (This part likely will not mean anything to you). If this is not the case, and it is too high, and you have the extra weight on your handlebars from your upper body resting on the the aero clip-ons, your stem could break off when you hit a big bump. (This part likely will catch your attention).

Anyways, maybe not ... probably not .... but I would have that checked out.

The stem in this photo is inserted far enough ... if you look closely you can just make out the engraved diagonal hashmarks around the circumference of the stem that mark the minimum insertion depth.

Also, I didn't look to closely, but your seat may not be too low. The only photo that shows your leg fully extended (lowest postion of the pedal) is pic #3730 ... and in this pic, you look OK to me ... the other pics you don't have your leg fully extended, so it's hard to tell ... and again ... I did not look to closely, because i am not a fitter.

Edited by jsselle 2011-01-07 9:29 PM




(Comp 98 Bianchi Campione 025 Stem.jpg)



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Comp 98 Bianchi Campione 025 Stem.jpg (22KB - 4 downloads)
2011-01-07 9:41 PM
in reply to: #3281292

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Subject: RE: Bike Position - Comments Please
Jsselle, I've just looked at the stem (which I'm pleased you described... because actually I didn't know what that was!) I can only just make out some engraving - part of an arrow pointing upwards to a horizontal line, which I'm guessing I shouldn't see. I vaguely remember raising the handle bars a while ago. The idea of the stem snapping off sure does get my attention! How much do you suggest I lower it?
2011-01-07 9:59 PM
in reply to: #3285954

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Subject: RE: Bike Position - Comments Please
"I can only just make out some engraving - part of an arrow pointing upwards to a horizontal line, which I'm guessing I shouldn't see." - Correct-o-mundo

"I vaguely remember raising the handle bars a while ago." - A while ago ... hmmmmm.  OK, now Google "High Cycle Fatigue Failure in Aluminum Alloys"

"The idea of the stem snapping off sure does get my attention!" - It probably won't snap off.

"How much do you suggest I lower it?" - Actually, I suggest you conduct a very scientific float test: Remove the stem that you've been riding "for a while" raised too high, and throw in in a deep lake. If it floats, it is fine. Re-install, inserted past the horozonal line. If, however, it sinks, then (please) take the safe route and have a bike shop install a new stem. Stem should cost thirty bucks, and the install about fifteen. (If your stem is installed with the engraved line just above the top nut, you can probably get away with lowering it below the line). WHile you are at the bike shop, go ahead and get new bar tape, and replace shifter/brake cables since you have to unwrap the tape anyways to put a new stem on. New cables is a great upgrade ... you'll tell the difference immediately in shifting precison. And nothing feels better on a bike than new grippy tape. Tip the wrench with a Starbucks card, then ask him if he'd mind taking a look at your seat height while you're there.

Happy trails.

Edited by jsselle 2011-01-07 10:02 PM
2011-01-08 9:55 AM
in reply to: #3281292

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Subject: RE: Bike Position - Comments Please
Not sure why you would move your cleats more forward they need to be back. Google it and if you are a sprinter which we are not they go forward but since we are riding long and need our power they should be back. It is also recommended to push them to the rear to fend off plantar faciitis!! Super bad thing to happen to your feet if you ever get it.
I do agree with raising your seat though but be careful and don't go beyond the max extension marks on your stem and seatpost. Frame may be a little small. Adjust some and ride it for a week and then reevaluate. But remember that comfort is King, or Queen in your case. Enjoy, John.
2011-01-08 12:01 PM
in reply to: #3281292

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Subject: RE: Bike Position - Comments Please
That's a nice bike, by the way. Avanti Chromium steel with original all equipment and down-tube shifters. Don't be tempted to sell it, and be careful trading out parts on it. Keep the original stuff (even that stem, probably after you lower it past the miniumum insertion mark!) I have a couple of bikes... but the one I ride the most outside is a 24-pound 1998 steel Bianchi with all original equipment 2X8 speeds and 32-spoke wheels.

Edited by jsselle 2011-01-08 12:06 PM




(Compress 98 Bianchi Campione.jpg)



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Compress 98 Bianchi Campione.jpg (44KB - 4 downloads)


2011-01-08 3:37 PM
in reply to: #3285971

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Subject: RE: Bike Position - Comments Please
jsselle - 2011-01-07 9:59 PM

"I vaguely remember raising the handle bars a while ago." - A while ago ... hmmmmm.  OK, now Google "High Cycle Fatigue Failure in Aluminum Alloys"


Basically nothing you can do on a bike will induce high cycle fatigue (emphasis on "high").
2011-01-08 4:24 PM
in reply to: #3281292

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Subject: RE: Bike Position - Comments Please

Hmmmmmm OK I defer. Sort of. I agree "Nothing you can do on a bike will induce high cycle fatigue failure ..." as long as the applied cyclic stress is below that which the component was designed for. Once you raise the stem up above minimum insertion point, the stress is increased (although it's still WAY below yield strength) and all bets are off. Then you could see ductile failure (deformation present) or HCFF (no ductile deformation) years later, right? Especially if other factors present which accelerate the point at which HCFF occurs. 

So it depends on how high the stress was on the stem, right? The higher, the lower cycles to HCFF.  And if any conditions present that could accelerate the HCFF (>>> fewer cycles but still high cycle failure mode ie limited plastic deformation present after failure).  HCFF is usually characterized by 103 to 108 cycles and stress well below yield strength. 1000 cycles would still be high cycle (although low end of high cycle) …. And 1000 to 10,000 low amplitude strain cycles on a 20-year old bike isn’t all that unrealistic.  And since fatigue failure is a stociastic process (variation even under controlled repetitive trials) and is exacerbated by conditions you might get in a bike stem (surface scoring, pitting, scratching, fretting, oxidation (lesser factor on an aluminum stem) that could lower the cycles to failure and still demonstrate high cycle failure (ie limited plastic deformation) ...... hmmmmm high cycle failure is still at least relevant.

 And it sounds cool. Say it: High Cycle Fatigue Failure.

Seriously, though, we probably both agree that there is probably nothing wrong with the stem. Probably. But fatigue damage is cumulative … aluminum doesn’t recover fatigue life once cyclic stress is removed …  so the safest call on a stem that has been ridden “for a while”  at some unknown height above minimum insertion (at least when making a recommendation over the web!) is just to replace it.



Edited by jsselle 2011-01-08 4:46 PM
2011-01-08 4:55 PM
in reply to: #3285876

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Subject: RE: Bike Position - Comments Please
Seat needs to go higher (which has been said by many already). You need to drop the height of your aerobars (which will make the drops much lower as well obviously, so you need to find a compromise between comfort in the drops and good, efficient aerodynamic position).

Here's how you adjust the cleats. Put your shoes on and stand up, have someone with a magic marker find the ball of your foot (protruding joint of your big toe), make a mark there; now find the protruding joint on the opposite side of your foot (pinky toe joint), mark that. You may need to help the person to find your joint by wiggling your toes. Now, take a ruler and lay it across those two marks. This is where the center line of the cleat should be.
2011-01-11 8:51 PM
in reply to: #3281292

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Subject: RE: Bike Position - Comments Please
Righteo... I've got plenty of good advice to follow now - thanks everyone for your patience. I will raise my seat height gradually, lower my handle bars and adjust my cleats. Once I think I've got it pretty sorted, I'll post some updated photos with my new super-dupa, efficient and fast as aero position!
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