General Discussion Triathlon Talk » Drills to improve kicking Rss Feed  
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2012-02-24 8:32 PM

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Subject: Drills to improve kicking

I'm told I have nice form in my upper half but I always forget about my legs and they end up just dragging along for the ride. If I used them, I bet I could go faster. Or is it just a matter of trying purposefully to think about kicking the whole time?

Also, are they supposed to be in a rhythm with respect to your arms...like two kicks per stroke, or anything like that? I've not had formal swim training since the 5th grade, and a coach helping me one weekend in college.



2012-02-24 8:44 PM
in reply to: #4065527

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Subject: RE: Drills to improve kicking
I'm no coach, but I have a feeling someone is going to say that if your legs are dragging it has more to do with what you're doing with your upper body/head than it does your kicking...I kick very little while swimming and when I do, it's not to go faster...In fact, I think I've read that kicking really isn't a huge factor in moving forward at all except for sprinting. (probably read that here somewhere.)  Hopefully someone will chime in who is a seasoned swimmer...

Edited by JasenGuy 2012-02-24 8:45 PM
2012-02-25 12:45 AM
in reply to: #4065527

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Subject: RE: Drills to improve kicking

Legs matter, but it's more for positioning with triathletes. You want an efficient kick so you can do something with it without wasting energy. Biggest reasons for the kick are to help lift the legs for better body position and to help with rolling side to side with the stroke. Just being efficient in the kick will give the lift, but timing matters for the roll.

A 6 beat or 2 beat kick are the most common methods taught. This is the number of kicks per cycle, or 2 strokes. 2 beat will have the right leg kick when the right arm is in the downswing, helping you roll to your left side. Left with left arm to go back. A 4 beat is not used as much (by those who know at least), because there will be a right AND left kick in one stroke, negating the roll assistance. A 6 beat will have to that help to one that counters per stroke, so there is more help.

I think it's better if one of the swimmers explains how to kick more effectively though. I'm ok, but still leave a lot to be desired. It should not look like you're running underwater. And to me it feels like I'm doing a lot less than I should with the range of motion, but more would increase the drag substantially.

Having a powerful kick might be nice in some situations (bridging gaps or breaking away), but it takes some time to develop. And as an age grouper, there are likely a lot of other things you can work on that will yield more gains. Just get to effective and let your upper body do most of the work in propulsion. In the water it's a much more effective use of energy. Pure swimmers don't have to bike and run after they're done.

2012-02-25 12:53 AM
in reply to: #4065527

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Subject: RE: Drills to improve kicking
The email I just received from Active.com had a bunch of drills for kicking.

Edited by SWIM2LIVE 2012-02-25 12:53 AM
2012-02-26 7:42 AM
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Subject: RE: Drills to improve kicking
The difference for me in swimming slowly vs. triathlon race pace vs. all out sprint are related to my turnover rate and my kick.  In a triathlon I would rarely if ever kick hard (I would need some good incentive).  Kicking is important for sprinting, and having an efficient kick is often under emphasized by triathletes in my opinion.  The last time I made a big improvement in pace I was doing a lot of kick sets, and I got to the point that I could kick 100 yds in 1:29.  Some elite swimmers can kick 100 in a minute or less.  So I'd say do more kicking.  Do intervals, kick with fins, dolphin kick, kick with a board, on your back.  It's all good.  As for timing, I think sprints and sprints with fins will help you figure that out.  But if you're pressed for time you may want to focus on other aspects of triathlon because in the end you won't be kicking hard in a race.
2012-02-26 8:31 AM
in reply to: #4065527

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Subject: RE: Drills to improve kicking
Finding Freestyle has many drills that help folks work on kicking.  There are 2, 4 and 6 beat kick freestyle. The program is on line, and helped me figure out kick timing.


2012-02-26 9:01 AM
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Subject: RE: Drills to improve kicking
brigby1 - 2012-02-25 1:45 AM

A 6 beat or 2 beat kick are the most common methods taught. This is the number of kicks per cycle, or 2 strokes. 2 beat will have the right leg kick when the right arm is in the downswing, helping you roll to your left side. Left with left arm to go back. A 4 beat is not used as much (by those who know at least), because there will be a right AND left kick in one stroke, negating the roll assistance. A 6 beat will have to that help to one that counters per stroke, so there is more help.

AHA! I thought 2 beat meant 2 kicks per arm stroke! I think my 4 beat kick is a problem...I seem to find myself rotating just fine on my left side but on my right I'm frustrated with the feeling that I'm lifting my head and I keep getting neck strain on the right side of my neck. I've been trying to rotate from the hip but for some reason it never feels right on the right side, but it's perfectly natural on the left. I thought it was because I needed more practice or to get used to it.

Thanks, brigby1. I'm gonna try a 2 beat kick next time I'm at the pool. To stay within the thread's theme...any drills for moving to a 2 beat kick?

2012-02-26 11:07 AM
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Subject: RE: Drills to improve kicking

I just spent a few minutes demonstrating the difference between a 2 beat kick and a 4 beat kick to my husband while spinning my arms in the air and kicking. He kept saying he didn't get it, so I then went to a dining room chair and laid on my stomach with my arms and legs free and "swimming" in the air. I demonstrated a few times - "see? See how on one side my arms and legs match up but on the other side it doesn't?" He kept saying he didn't get it.

Then I realised he just enjoyed seeing me flail around like a really excited idiot. Husbands!!

2012-02-26 11:55 AM
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Subject: RE: Drills to improve kicking

...and what's the deal with feet breaking the surface when kicking. I didn't remember much instruction as a young swimmer, but what seemed to get drilled in to my head was never ever ever break the surface. You are trying to kick water not air.... but of course plenty do.

I was watching some videos last night from Ryan Hall demonstrating stuff and the model was constantly doing it. Big slpashes.

2012-02-26 11:59 AM
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Subject: RE: Drills to improve kicking
Thanks...I won't worry about it too much, since I definitely don't have trouble with my legs sinking. I just thought maybe I should be making more use of them. I'll do some kicking drills but not obsess over it.
2012-02-26 11:59 AM
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Subject: RE: Drills to improve kicking
Thanks...I won't worry about it too much, since I definitely don't have trouble with my legs sinking. I just thought maybe I should be making more use of them. I'll do some kicking drills but not obsess over it.


2012-02-26 12:49 PM
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Subject: RE: Drills to improve kicking
GreenMtnLabbit - 2012-02-26 10:07 AM

Then I realised he just enjoyed seeing me flail around like a really excited idiot. Husbands!!



Your husband's entertainment aside, see if you can explain it more along these lines...

Swimming is a right half left half activity, not a front half back half activity. 2 , 4 or 6 beats, there is still emphasis on opposite arm spearing, opposite leg kicking. If you are rotating along your spine as you swim, if you don't pair up opposite arm & leg then you'll never get the full body integration you need for more efficient & faster swimming.

Schematically..., it's a waltz, not a fox trot...

Waltz rhythm
2 beat kick: (arm entry, leg kick)
ARM: R . . L . .
LEG: L . . R . .

6 beat kick
ARM: R . . L . .
LEG: L R L R L R


4 beats
ARM: R . . L . .
LEG: L R . R L .


Fox Trot Rhythm
(Incorrect 4 beat kick)
ARM: R . L . .
LEG: L R L R
2012-02-26 12:54 PM
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Subject: RE: Drills to improve kicking
Thanks for the clarification, AdventureBear. I have definitely being doing the fox-trot! Can't wait to get in the pool today. I imagine much hilarity will ensue, but I definitely want to become a better swimmer.
2012-02-26 1:00 PM
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Subject: RE: Drills to improve kicking
GreenMtnLabbit - 2012-02-26 11:54 AM

Thanks for the clarification, AdventureBear. I have definitely being doing the fox-trot! Can't wait to get in the pool today. I imagine much hilarity will ensue, but I definitely want to become a better swimmer.


Sing a waltz while you swim and see if that helps.
2012-02-26 1:01 PM
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Subject: RE: Drills to improve kicking
AdventureBear - 2012-02-26 11:49 AM
GreenMtnLabbit - 2012-02-26 10:07 AM

Then I realised he just enjoyed seeing me flail around like a really excited idiot. Husbands!!

Your husband's entertainment aside, see if you can explain it more along these lines... Swimming is a right half left half activity, not a front half back half activity. 2 , 4 or 6 beats, there is still emphasis on opposite arm spearing, opposite leg kicking. If you are rotating along your spine as you swim, if you don't pair up opposite arm & leg then you'll never get the full body integration you need for more efficient & faster swimming. Schematically..., it's a waltz, not a fox trot... Waltz rhythm 2 beat kick: (arm entry, leg kick) ARM: R . . L . . LEG: L . . R . . 6 beat kick ARM: R . . L . . LEG: L R L R L R 4 beats ARM: R . . L . . LEG: L R . R L . Fox Trot Rhythm (Incorrect 4 beat kick) ARM: R . L . . LEG: L R L R

Wait... so what is the timing? I thought you kicked same side as you weer half way in same side pull.

So you are saying left hand spear, right leg kick... left leg kick when right hand spears???

Doing a 6 beat kick... not saying I'm right just what I do... all same side... my leg wants to kick as my hand enters, then in the middle and then at the end of the stroke.

Trying to do a 2 beat kick I can't get rid of wanting to fire a kick as my hand enters... but you are saying I'm opposite.

What do you say about splashing?

2012-02-26 1:04 PM
in reply to: #4067043

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Subject: RE: Drills to improve kicking
I teach kicking by pairing the kick and the opposite side entering arm. It's essentially the same thing as kicking when the same side arm is pulling. You are just focusing on the other half of the upper body. Every action you make while swimming can be paired with an action on the opposite side of the body...

Ie When the Left arm enters...

What does the right arm do?
What does the right leg do?
What does the left leg do?

So we are saying the same thing.


However, since swimming is fundamentally an extension sport (making your body longer in the water to streamline better, even as you stroke) I concentrate as many teaching points as I can on the extension aspects of coordination. The opposite arm just happens to be stroking in there as well...but that would be a different focus to pair with the kick.

Splashes create waves which is a source of drag, so I avoid splashing as much as possible. Watch my "watch me swim" link below to see how I swim in open water with wind and (tiny) waves. That was swimming into the current & the surface wind.

Edited by AdventureBear 2012-02-26 1:09 PM


2012-02-26 1:21 PM
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Subject: RE: Drills to improve kicking
Cool. I see that.
2012-02-26 3:11 PM
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Subject: RE: Drills to improve kicking

AdventureBear - 2012-02-26 12:49 PM

2 beat kick: (arm entry, leg kick) ARM: R . . L . . LEG: L . . R . .

6 beat kick ARM: R . . L . .

LEG: L R L R L R

4 beats ARM: R . . L . .

LEG: L R . R L .

Fox Trot Rhythm (Incorrect 4 beat kick) ARM: R . L . .

LEG: L R L R

 

Clarity!! Can't wait to try. That proper 4 beat kick is so weird. I never heard of such a thing (I'm pretty untrained). Is that recommended, or is a 6 beat more common?



Edited by Neek-neek 2012-02-26 3:13 PM
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