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2012-10-25 12:00 PM

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Champion
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Subject: why are the religious right?

not correct, but politically.  it surprises me that, in general, religious people tend to vote republican.  (sorry for generalizing, but i mean specifically christian/catholic.  would love to hear opinions regarding other faiths as well).

especially this year, with the 2 parties so opposite each other.  democrats are fighting for spending on social welfare programs, which i personally think is something jesus would have been in favor of...taking care of those who cannot take care of themselves.  republicans consider this involvement and spending irresponsible and not their role.  i know there is the issue of abortion and gay marriage rights, but i feel like as a christian, shouldn't you spend more energy taking care of those who need you rather than fighting those you may disagree with?

anyone, just some thoughts i've been tossing around lately, and figured it could spark some lively discussion in here.  and i'm not even going to be able to check in on your responses for a few hours....



2012-10-25 12:04 PM
in reply to: #4469000

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Elite
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Subject: RE: why are the religious right?

i know there is the issue of abortion and gay marriage rights

 

I think that pretty much sums it up. Most of the people I know that fall into the "religious Right" category are there almost exclusively for this, but, I think they tend to lean to more Conservative thinking anyway and those two issues just sort of cement it.

 

 

2012-10-25 12:04 PM
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Subject: RE: why are the religious right?

Not religious by any means but it seems to me forced charity is not charity at all.

2012-10-25 12:05 PM
in reply to: #4469000

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Subject: RE: why are the religious right?

mehaner - 2012-10-25 10:00 AM democrats are fighting for spending on social welfare programs, which i personally think is something jesus would have been in favor of...taking care of those who cannot take care of themselves.

Somehow I see a lot of mismatch between social welfare and "cannot take care of themselves". There IS a biblical principal of "if you don't work, you don't eat". The biggest problem I see with the institutionalizing of the system is separating "cannot" from "will not".

2012-10-25 12:09 PM
in reply to: #4469012

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Subject: RE: why are the religious right?
briderdt - 2012-10-25 12:05 PM

mehaner - 2012-10-25 10:00 AM democrats are fighting for spending on social welfare programs, which i personally think is something jesus would have been in favor of...taking care of those who cannot take care of themselves.

Somehow I see a lot of mismatch between social welfare and "cannot take care of themselves". There IS a biblical principal of "if you don't work, you don't eat". The biggest problem I see with the institutionalizing of the system is separating "cannot" from "will not".

^^ This.  

2012-10-25 12:14 PM
in reply to: #4469009

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Subject: RE: why are the religious right?
trinnas - 2012-10-25 1:04 PM

Not religious by any means but it seems to me forced charity is not charity at all.

Not religious here, either, but many churches have an expectation of tithing (10% goes to the church). That is not really any different than the government providing social safety nets in that it is still an obligation.

To the OP, I think a lot of it has to do with how Reagan sold himself to the right in 1980. It is ironic that for the claims of wanting to have a country that is guided by biblical principles (not a position I agree with - c.f. any country with sharia/Islam as the starting point for the legal system), they often oppose the very things that Jesus demanded of his followers - such as caring for the poor- being done by the government. And given all the ways that the bible describes to end pregnancy, I am not sure that abortion is an anti-biblical position. 



2012-10-25 12:16 PM
in reply to: #4469012

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Sensei
Sin City
Subject: RE: why are the religious right?
briderdt - 2012-10-25 10:05 AM

mehaner - 2012-10-25 10:00 AM democrats are fighting for spending on social welfare programs, which i personally think is something jesus would have been in favor of...taking care of those who cannot take care of themselves.

Somehow I see a lot of mismatch between social welfare and "cannot take care of themselves". There IS a biblical principal of "if you don't work, you don't eat". The biggest problem I see with the institutionalizing of the system is separating "cannot" from "will not".

That's the point I was going to bring up.  I don't mind helping people who can not, but too many people will not...  well, based on MY estimation.

That's the problem.  My estimation of who and who can not take care of themselves probably differs from someone elses.

2012-10-25 12:17 PM
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Subject: RE: why are the religious right?
It's interesting: The messages of kindness and toleration which christianty subscribes to are easily drowned out by those of vengence and penance. The old testament ideas of eye for an eye seem to be what the political-christians gravitate towards rather than the new testament ideas of love your brother.
2012-10-25 12:24 PM
in reply to: #4469033

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Subject: RE: why are the religious right?
gearboy - 2012-10-25 1:14 PM
trinnas - 2012-10-25 1:04 PM

Not religious by any means but it seems to me forced charity is not charity at all.

Not religious here, either, but many churches have an expectation of tithing (10% goes to the church). That is not really any different than the government providing social safety nets in that it is still an obligation.

To the OP, I think a lot of it has to do with how Reagan sold himself to the right in 1980. It is ironic that for the claims of wanting to have a country that is guided by biblical principles (not a position I agree with - c.f. any country with sharia/Islam as the starting point for the legal system), they often oppose the very things that Jesus demanded of his followers - such as caring for the poor- being done by the government. And given all the ways that the bible describes to end pregnancy, I am not sure that abortion is an anti-biblical position. 

it is your choice to belong to any given church. It is not your choice whether or not to pay taxes.

2012-10-25 12:26 PM
in reply to: #4469059

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Subject: RE: why are the religious right?
trinnas - 2012-10-25 10:24 AM
gearboy - 2012-10-25 1:14 PM
trinnas - 2012-10-25 1:04 PM

Not religious by any means but it seems to me forced charity is not charity at all.

Not religious here, either, but many churches have an expectation of tithing (10% goes to the church). That is not really any different than the government providing social safety nets in that it is still an obligation.

To the OP, I think a lot of it has to do with how Reagan sold himself to the right in 1980. It is ironic that for the claims of wanting to have a country that is guided by biblical principles (not a position I agree with - c.f. any country with sharia/Islam as the starting point for the legal system), they often oppose the very things that Jesus demanded of his followers - such as caring for the poor- being done by the government. And given all the ways that the bible describes to end pregnancy, I am not sure that abortion is an anti-biblical position. 

it is your choice to belong to any given church. It is not your choice whether or not to pay taxes.

Well, technically, you have the choice to pay or not.  Just my not like the repercussions if you don't.

2012-10-25 12:27 PM
in reply to: #4469000

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Subject: RE: why are the religious right?
As a religious person and a conservative, my biggest problem is what was said earlier, force. I believe in and regularly help those around me. I do so through monetary donations, and volunteer work. I do believe in helping my fellow man and I put my money where my mouth is. I don't think it's the place of the government to do what they are doing now.

Welfare is out of control and loses its focus on helping those in need, and instead focuses on buying votes.


2012-10-25 12:27 PM
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Subject: RE: why are the religious right?
trinnas - 2012-10-25 1:24 PM

gearboy - 2012-10-25 1:14 PM
trinnas - 2012-10-25 1:04 PM

Not religious by any means but it seems to me forced charity is not charity at all.

Not religious here, either, but many churches have an expectation of tithing (10% goes to the church). That is not really any different than the government providing social safety nets in that it is still an obligation.

To the OP, I think a lot of it has to do with how Reagan sold himself to the right in 1980. It is ironic that for the claims of wanting to have a country that is guided by biblical principles (not a position I agree with - c.f. any country with sharia/Islam as the starting point for the legal system), they often oppose the very things that Jesus demanded of his followers - such as caring for the poor- being done by the government. And given all the ways that the bible describes to end pregnancy, I am not sure that abortion is an anti-biblical position. 

it is your choice to belong to any given church. It is not your choice whether or not to pay taxes.



True, but the church also administers to the poor and to the sick. That's outside of taxes and you certainly don't tithe at the 31% bracket. At least I certainly dont.

Oddly: I see our priest often when I'm at the doctor's office or the hospital just by running into him coincidentally.
2012-10-25 12:28 PM
in reply to: #4469063

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Subject: RE: why are the religious right?
Kido - 2012-10-25 1:26 PM
trinnas - 2012-10-25 10:24 AM
gearboy - 2012-10-25 1:14 PM
trinnas - 2012-10-25 1:04 PM

Not religious by any means but it seems to me forced charity is not charity at all.

Not religious here, either, but many churches have an expectation of tithing (10% goes to the church). That is not really any different than the government providing social safety nets in that it is still an obligation.

To the OP, I think a lot of it has to do with how Reagan sold himself to the right in 1980. It is ironic that for the claims of wanting to have a country that is guided by biblical principles (not a position I agree with - c.f. any country with sharia/Islam as the starting point for the legal system), they often oppose the very things that Jesus demanded of his followers - such as caring for the poor- being done by the government. And given all the ways that the bible describes to end pregnancy, I am not sure that abortion is an anti-biblical position. 

it is your choice to belong to any given church. It is not your choice whether or not to pay taxes.

Well, technically, you have the choice to pay or not.  Just my not like the repercussions if you don't.

True but that is more to type on the iPad than I wanted to worry about.

2012-10-25 12:35 PM
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Subject: RE: why are the religious right?
Prior to the 1960s the Catholic population voted predominantly D. Since then the Catholic population has pretty much moved it's votes in line with the nation. Evangelicals don't really think of Catholics as Christians. The Catholic vote has become one of the most important swing groups out there.
2012-10-25 12:39 PM
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Subject: RE: why are the religious right?

Its Only Money - 2012-10-25 12:35 PM Prior to the 1960s the Catholic population voted predominantly D. Since then the Catholic population has pretty much moved it's votes in line with the nation. Evangelicals don't really think of Catholics as Christians. The Catholic vote has become one of the most important swing groups out there.

Because abortion was not legal.

 

As a Catholic I always have a difficult time. I am pro-life, anti-death penalty, pro gay rights, and though the system needs work not against welfare and helping our fellow brothers and sisters.  The reality is most people do not do their part to volunteer and donate. If everyone did we would be in much better shape as a country.

2012-10-25 12:43 PM
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Subject: RE: why are the religious right?
Its Only Money - 2012-10-25 1:35 PM

Prior to the 1960s the Catholic population voted predominantly D. Since then the Catholic population has pretty much moved it's votes in line with the nation. Evangelicals don't really think of Catholics as Christians. The Catholic vote has become one of the most important swing groups out there.


I think that's also socio-economic. Before 1960, immigration from Eastern Europe and Ireland were prevalent and those populations were tradiationally blue collar laborers and Catholic in their previous countries. Labor has always been democrat leaning.

But we digress from the OT...


2012-10-25 12:46 PM
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Subject: ...
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2012-10-25 1:02 PM
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Subject: RE: why are the religious right?

pitt83 - 2012-10-25 10:43 AM
Its Only Money - 2012-10-25 1:35 PM Prior to the 1960s the Catholic population voted predominantly D. Since then the Catholic population has pretty much moved it's votes in line with the nation. Evangelicals don't really think of Catholics as Christians. The Catholic vote has become one of the most important swing groups out there.
I think that's also socio-economic. Before 1960, immigration from Eastern Europe and Ireland were prevalent and those populations were tradiationally blue collar laborers and Catholic in their previous countries. Labor has always been democrat leaning. But we digress from the OT...

I disagree with this in the context of 1960.  The U.S. had strong Protestant influence from the very beginning.  And even in 1960 they were still rumblings about the influence of the Catholic church on U.S. politics, even fears that the pope would be pulling the strings of the white house if Kennedy were elected.

It's only in recent years that Catholics have been treated more as equals with any other Christian.

 

*edit: I meant the immigration, not the voting.  Catholics certainly voted strongly in support of Kennedy.



Edited by spudone 2012-10-25 1:05 PM
2012-10-25 1:15 PM
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Subject: RE: why are the religious right?
mehaner - 2012-10-25 12:00 PM

as a christian, shouldn't you spend more energy taking care of those who need you rather than fighting those you may disagree with?


Exactly, which is why I am opposed to the Democratic position in this matter. Let me explain:

My wife and I, on less income, gave away more money in 2011 than Joe Biden and his wife have given away cumulatively since 1998. ALL of their giving since 1998 through 2011, we gave more in one year, on less income. Yet Joe says "It's time to be patriotic" and plans to take MY money to give away? When he's not hardly giving any? You guys can look it up for yourselves, but I'll just tell you that the Bidens and Obamas consistently give a paltry measure of their income, yet want to take money (something Jesus would definitely be against) in order to give it away to people they don't feel are important enough to support with their own incomes. It's hypocritical at best, and pretty offensive when you look at the hard numbers.
2012-10-25 1:30 PM
in reply to: #4469192

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Subject: RE: why are the religious right?

Bripod - 2012-10-25 12:15 PM
mehaner - 2012-10-25 12:00 PM as a christian, shouldn't you spend more energy taking care of those who need you rather than fighting those you may disagree with?
Exactly, which is why I am opposed to the Democratic position in this matter. Let me explain: My wife and I, on less income, gave away more money in 2011 than Joe Biden and his wife have given away cumulatively since 1998. ALL of their giving since 1998 through 2011, we gave more in one year, on less income. Yet Joe says "It's time to be patriotic" and plans to take MY money to give away? When he's not hardly giving any? You guys can look it up for yourselves, but I'll just tell you that the Bidens and Obamas consistently give a paltry measure of their income, yet want to take money (something Jesus would definitely be against) in order to give it away to people they don't feel are important enough to support with their own incomes. It's hypocritical at best, and pretty offensive when you look at the hard numbers.

Good post and I think I see a common opinion in this thread from religious POV that it's not so much that they are against helping others...it's more that they will help on their own terms.  I'm independent but slightly right of center.  I am against paying taxes to support many of the social programs we have in this country.  However, we donate our money and time money probably more than the average taxpayer.  We donate where we believe it is truely helping people and not being wasted in a poorly run government program.  I find it funny how the media and the D's want to make such a big issue of Romney's tax rate of 14 percent...yet he gives 30 percent to charity.  I would rather see that 30 percent going to charities than our government and getting wasted!

2012-10-25 1:39 PM
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Subject: RE: why are the religious right?


Ecclesiastes 10:2

The heart of the wise man inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool is to the left.




2012-10-25 1:41 PM
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Subject: RE: why are the religious right?

bradleyd3 - 2012-10-25 2:39 PM Ecclesiastes 10:2 The heart of the wise man inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool is to the left.

Ummm Technically everyone's heart is slightly left. 

 

 

2012-10-25 1:46 PM
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Sensei
Sin City
Subject: RE: why are the religious right?
trinnas - 2012-10-25 11:41 AM

bradleyd3 - 2012-10-25 2:39 PM Ecclesiastes 10:2 The heart of the wise man inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool is to the left.

Ummm Technically everyone's heart is slightly left. 

 

 

Unless you have Dextrocardia.

2012-10-25 1:54 PM
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Subject: RE: why are the religious right?
Kido - 2012-10-25 2:46 PM
trinnas - 2012-10-25 11:41 AM

bradleyd3 - 2012-10-25 2:39 PM Ecclesiastes 10:2 The heart of the wise man inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool is to the left.

Ummm Technically everyone's heart is slightly left. 

 

 

Unless you have Dextrocardia.

You are just on a roll aren't you.

 

2012-10-25 2:01 PM
in reply to: #4469271

Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: why are the religious right?

I'll leave aside the hot button issues of abortion, euthanasia,
and marriage, that are essentially non-negotiable.

As Catholics, we're called to provide preferential treatment for the poor.
How does that get accomplished.

Within Catholic thought there are two principles that apply:
the principle of solidarity and the principle of subsidiarity.

Solidarity means that we're all in this together.
That is a basic principle of the left.
And it's a true one; we are indeed all in this together and have a responsibility to one another.

Subsidiarity means that whenever possible, decisions and responsibility
ought to reside at the most local level possible.
Total self reliance is the most extreme form of subsidiarity.
From there it ramps up to family, church, community, city
state, country, the world.
Subsidiarity is a basic principle of the right.
And it's a true one; whenever possible one ought to make decisions and have responsibility
at as local a level as possible.

These two principles come together in Catholic thought regarding
how to provide preferential treatment for the poor.
As long as we agree that the poor ought to and need to be cared for at some level,
then persons of good will may disagree about the best way to achieve that end. 

 

 

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