RE-OPENED Birkierunner's 2013 mentor group - RE-OPENED!!! (Page 10)

Jim - thanks for the detailed response.  I wasn't expecting a setp by step race plan, more a framework idea which you've given here.  I do have a couple of additional questions.

• How do you typically manage race weekends during a training plan.  I've trained through races before typically just missing out on the bigger volume that would normally occur on the weekend and substitite it with the intensity of a race - but I'm curious if there is a better/different way to approach those races.
• This next one is kind of a loaded question since it all depends on the individual, but what type of balance is there between improvement during a race plan vs. simply getting prepared to race the distance.  By that I mean, how dificult does it become to create a plan that focuses on making in improvements - while still preparing you for the race.  I realize the two objectives are not mutually exclusive, I'm just wondering if you have to give up one a bit to gain in the other....(question is not coming across all that clearly).

I have a newbie bike question here.  I put in a spinervals DVD this morning for some indoor training and it tells you what gears to be in at certain times during the video.  I get the big ring, small ring etc., but it also notes a number which I'm assuming belongs to the rear gears.  Such as 15 or 20.   I didn't actually count the rings on the back gear of my bike, but I'm thinking there are less than 10 for sure.  What does that number indicate?  Sorry, I'm sure this is a elementary question, but I have no clue (obvious).

Thanks, Todd

Spinervals will tell you small ring or big ring up front, but then also give a second number which basically refers to which of the rear cogs or rings you need to be on.  If you have a rear cassette with 9 speeds you will have 9 cogs/rings, 10 speed = 10 cogs.  Cogs differ in number of "teeth" from smallest to largest.  For example a 12-25 cassette will have 12 teeth on the smallest cog and 25 on the largest.  Its worth counting the teeth on each cog and writing them down so you will know which number cog on your cassette you need to be in to match what cog the spinerval is telling you to be on.  So, if spinerval is telling you "12" in rear then shift your gear to the smallest cog in back.

OK, so the last week has been the week from hell.  First a mad dash across the country, then a couple non-stop days to get my client's network back up.  Finally I can back off on the work thing and refocus on the training thing.  Gonna be in California for a few more days waiting for additional hardware to come in so I am thinking maybe a couple miles in the ocean to get my open water swim skills back in line.  Then some runs on the beach just because I can.

This all brings up a question - what do you do when "life" gets in the way?  I have heard the comments about you just make the time, etc.  I have heard "it is all about how bad you want it," and other similar comments.  I have my own business and am able, for the most part, to set my own schedule so training time is rarely an issue.  Unfortunately, reality is that sometimes stuff happens.  So what do you do when your best laid plans, together with your training schedule, fly out the window?  Do you beat yourself up and feel guilty for the missed workouts?  Do you try to 'make up' the missed workouts?  Or do you just say, "shiot happens" and move forward?

Thanks for your input.  Gonna take a couple hours now and read up on what I have missed and maybe offer my two cents if the urge strikes.

Hey Gary,

This is actually a great question and one that many beginning swimmers struggle with.  You are absolutely correct that paddles will promote good hand position.  Not so much that they "teach" good position as that paddles attenuate improper hand position from which you can determine proper hand position.  I'm not sure that the use of paddles will teach good stroke mechanics.  Let me explain why, at least in my opinion and then try to answer your question.  Stroke mechanics refers to the ENTIRE stroke: hand entry, hand position, pull, hand/arm recovery, body position, leg position, etc.  I am not trying to be snarky with this comment, just pointing out reality; if you have good stroke mechanics, your legs would not be "sinking like lead weights," with or without pull buoys.

So how to fix that?  You said you had only been really swimming since September.  That is only a few months.  My suspicion is that you have tried to add the yardage without perfecting technique, which often is a recipe for improper mechanics and poor form.  You have used the paddles for a bit and have developed a sense of proper hand position.  My suggestion is to lose the paddles for the time being and concentrate on overall PROPER stroke technique.  An efficient freestyle stoke begins and ends with a proper body roll.  EVERYTHING else about the freestyle stroke flows out of a good body roll.  If the roll is incorrect, you can't have a good entry.  If the roll is bad, you will not be in position for a proper recovery.  If there is an incorrect roll, your legs will not be in the proper position.  Stated another way, your legs CANNOT drop if your body roll is correct.

A little drill to help promote body roll - after your hand has entered the water, consciously think about reaching for the far wall - extend your hand as far forward as you can.  That will cause you to roll into the stroke.  At the same time, your other hand will be beginning the recovery.  Consciously think about the position of your hand and hip as you begin your recovery.  You want your hand to be coming out of the water at the hip - that means a very long pull and full extension of your arm to the hip.  I encourage people to actually brush their hip with their thumb as your hip rolls out of the way of your hand (hopefully that makes sense).  Maybe in a more clear way - as one hand enters the water, you are rolling into the stroke towards the far wall.  Simultaneously, your hip is rolling out of the way so that your other hand can begin the recovery.  If you consciously think about those two elements you will develop a proper body roll and will eliminate the legs dropping.  If you consider it, you simply cannot have a body roll if your legs are not in a horizontal position so focusing on the roll will necessarily fix the leg position problem.  One last point, the body roll is your entire body.  Not just the shoulders or just the hips but your whole body.  When you get the roll correct, everything else will magically fall into place.

Hope that helps to answer the question and doesn't create additional confusion.

Just my humble two cents.

I am right there with you.  I'm the first one to admit that swimming is a study in boredom.  I absolutely, whole heartedly agree that there are coaches out there that dream up these silly workout routines and drills with absolutely no thought towards how that routine or drill may impact the overall performance or training of the athlete, indeed I often wonder if they even consider they may be doing more harm then good.  That however, is another discussion for another day.

Quick tip - most of the gears will have the number marked on one of the teeth for that cog.

I used to beat myself up over missed workouts - but have come to the realization that it does me no good.  I still feel guilty, and will try to avoid it happening, but when it does it does.  I've been missing time on the trainer, and need to fix that (in a hurry), and so I'll try to cram in back to back days this week - but that's because these are short workouts, so I can get away with it.

Keep in mind that there are different workouts - key ones, and not so key ones.  Missing the key (in many cases longer) workouts should be avoided as much as possible.  The flip side of that, is that you should not always try to make them up.  If you've missed it you've missed it - if you try and shove it into the following week (as an example) you're likely hurting the workouts, and the timing of the workouts in that week.  You may be able to juggle the workouts for the week and move them around, but if your plan has been well thought out, you may be doing yourself more harm than good by making up that missed workout.

One thing that I have noticed about KQ'ers form reading blogs, looking at training logs, etc., is their consistency.  It is very much a full time job to train and be wholly dedicated to achieving that one goal, and most of these guys/gals don't mess around with their training.  For better or worse, many of them make it one their key priorities in life, and they don't waver from it.

That kind of highlights my question.  In my case, training hasn't become one of the key priorities, it is THE priority; EVERYTHING else is secondary.  That said, unfortunately, shiot still happens.  So what do you do?  I just picked up where I was in my training schedule, as if the missed workouts didn't happen.  Then I kicked myself in the back side with every stride of my run and called myself more than a few unseemly names, all of which accomplished precisely - nothing!  I imagine I will continue to beat myself up for a few more days and then move on to something more productive - like how I might alter my business so that I have 6-8 reliable training hours each and every day for the next two years.

Looking forward to getting home so I can get back to my regular schedule.

It's great if you can make it your single biggest focus.  And when crap happens, then you need to adjust and adapt.  You're at a clients doing work for x hours every day - you still need to focus on getting in a swim or run in your downtime.  Is it the same as what's in your plan, likely not, but downtime isn't going to serve you to well when you're you are tring to compete at the pointy end of the field.  For most of us, we can get away with it to a greater degree.

Do you have a coach?

I hate to keep answering questions with “it depends”, but…it depends.  As I’ve said before I’m a big fan of using races in training, but I love to race so much that it’s not necessarily the best thing for my season plan.  In 2010 I raced over 16 times…tough on the wallet and schedule.  When developing a training plan the athlete needs to identify their goal race (“A” race) and any other secondary races they want to do.  I wouldn’t recommend more than 2 “A” races for a season.  Other races are categorized as B or C, depending on their distance, level of desire to perform well in the particular race, proximity to your A race(s), or any other intangible variable you want in your rating.  For me personally, regardless of whether a race is an A, B, or C…I still RACE it…as in racing to win it.  Others may treat their B or C races more casually and just want to get out and participate and there is definitely nothing wrong with that…its supposed to be fun anyway!  Determining the relative importance of each race will help you arrange your training so that you achieve what you want in the race while at the same time keeping in mind the long-range goal of your A race.   Like you, I train thru almost all races except for my Ironman races.  If at all possible, I like to find Saturday races so that I can still get in a decent long ride on the day after the race.  As you mentioned, you can use the intensity of the race to substitute what normally would have been one of your intensity workouts for the week.  So, no, I don’t really think there is any better way to treat these races.  The only thing you can tweak is how much rest you want right before the race.  If the race requires overnight travel then use that travel day as a “rest” day and maybe get out upon arrival and do a light swim, bike or run just to check out the venue and shake out the legs.  I wouldn’t schedule any hard runs for the 2-3 days prior to the race.  The thing to watch out for if you are racing a lot is to not do a lot of “mini-tapers” for these races because all of that tapering time will eventually add up over a season and will hurt your long-range training goals for your A race.  If you are training thru the races you may have to swallow some of your pride when you view the posting of the race results.  Your friends may be treating your B or C race as their A race.  Just keep the “big picture” in mind and know that even though you didn’t perform to your best ability in a B or C race you are working towards your A race.  

I am concurrently reading IronFit by Fink and Going Long by Friel (Probably my first mistake!) 

Anyway, there are some contradictions amongst the two. 

First, Fink's plans are to do the long key training on weekends whereas, Friel says you should spread long training events away from each other by a couple days.  I am with Fink on this one mainly because there is no way I can do long training during the week anyway. 

Second, Fink says to make your goals public while Friel says to keep them private.  It is well known by my friends and family that I will be doing Ironman Wisconsin, however, I haven't verbalized any time goals at this point. 

And last, reading Friel this morning I believe I read that Lactate threshold can be changed with fitness.  Is this correct? or is that a fixed thing for each athlete?  Thanks for the input. 

Tomorrow I plan a "long" run then I'm off to the U.P. for a couple days of downhill - should be awesome conditions too.  I'm Pumped!!

-Todd

One more thing if I may hog the group for awhile.  Is it possible to extrapolate a possible Ironman time from what your HIM time is?  I'm just thinking double the HIM time and add a couple hours?  Obviously conditions on the day of the race could be very different, but if you're trying to make an estimated guess....

- Todd

Todd, there are different schools of thought on whether or not to separate long key workouts.  One school says to separate your long run from long bike by a couple or few days to make each of those workouts a higher quality because you aren't suffering from any fatigue effects from the previous workout.  That may work for some athletes and if they have poor recuperative ability it may be necessary.  But it is not the only school of thought and the other has you doing long bikes and long runs on the weekend.  I think Fink tends to structure his plans for your typical athlete that has real world time constraints during the work week.  That may be one reason he puts long key workouts on weekends back to back...I'm not sure because its been a while since I've looked at his book.  But he may simply believe that its better to have the workouts on the weekend because you will be training to run on tired legs (if you bike long day before) and that is what you must face in a race.  I can make an argument for doing both.  You can have some weeks where you separate the two and then have dedicated big training weekends where you do long s/b/r over 2-3 days.  Depending on the athlete you may want to separate those big weekends by 5-6 weeks.   More experienced athletes can do them more frequently.  This is where long-term planning becomes important so that you structure your IM plan to elicit the desired training response, maintain progress through to the peak, and recover adequately.  It really depends on the athlete and how well they can carry out these types of weekends, how well their legs hold up to the rigors of running, and more importantly recover adequatley and absorb it.

As far as making goals public or private....that is totally up to you.  If you "need" the accountability then make it public.  If you are self-driven then you can keep it to yourself...or do both and brag about your goal .  Totally an individual thing and there is no right answer.

Yes, you can definitely train/raise your LT...it is not a fixed parameter for anyone.  In general, training at or near your LT (determined from field testing) is the best way to improve it.  You will still receive LT benefits from higher intensity training such as VO2max type workouts but you won't receive as large a benefit versus a LT type workout.

What's everyone got planned for the weekend?  There is supposed to be a big warmup this weekend so we may actually hit 30 degrees by Sunday.  Running and skiing for me.

Looking for feedback on the mentor group so far.  We have tons of "views" on this thread but not many posts.  Not sure why that is...for so few posts compared to other mentor groups we have comparatively more views.  I know we have gotten into some detailed discussions and mentioned Ironman training but I hope no one is "scared away" by such discussions.  I'm not a rah-rah type of coach/mentor so I tend not to just post for the sake of posting.  

Let me know what you think!!!

As mentioned above, a rule of thumb you often hear quoted on the interwebs is to double your HIM time and add an hour.  For me, that would get me to a 10:14 Ironman and a likely trip to Kona by now.  The reality is...my IM best is only 10:57.  I was stubborn for most of my IM races and didn't pay very much attention to nutrition.  The result...3 DNFs, trips to med tents and many many IV bag drips in my arm to recover from dehydration....and no KQs.  To be totally honest, I truly believe I have the capability of a KQ...its just something I feel I can do based on my experience of the last 35 years.  But if you don't pay attention to the details in IM racing you will pay the price.  It wasn't until last year that I finally contacted a nutrition coach (who also happened to be an IM racer that has KQ'ed) to help me develop a race fueling plan.  I didn't get much chance to practice it for last year's race at IM Mont-Tremblant but it got me to the finish line.  I simply didn't have the training under my belt for that race due to a step-back from hard-core training for the previous 1.5 years due to divorce, etc. 

You should be able to take your performances in key training days, along with HIM performances, to get in the ballpark of an IM goal to shoot for.   BUT...................you take what the day gives you.  Expect anything and everything come race day.  You can say "well, if I swim this split, fast T1, do that bike split, fast T2, and such and such run split blah blah blah, and I will end up with a finish time of x:x:x.  Sounds good on paper...but that can go out the window in a flash.  Take what the day gives you...or maybe even try to grab for a little more and see if you can hang on.  There's a website out there somewhere that lets you play some games with s/b/r bike splits, PRs in each leg, etc to come up with a prediction.  I'll see if I can find it.

Thanks all for the input. 

Neil, I found the numbers on my gears which I believe saved me a major headache if I had had to count them and try to remember which one I started on! 

Jim, after reading your last post I think I should just go into it with the attitude to "enjoy the moment" (to the degree that that's possible).   Part of my thinking is that I may not get another shot at it, so just want to do the best I can.  Not so much from my stance as up to this point I have always went into something (1st marathon, 1st triathlon etc.) thinking I'll just do it once to say I did it, but then catch the bug.   More so for my wife who really has to pick up my slack when I'm training. 

At any rate, I think I am suffering from what Friel calls "goal creep"  where you  think that maybe you can do it at such n such time.  Since I'm pretty self motivating, I will keep my goals under the cuff. 

As for the mentoring, I think you're doing a great job (I don't necessarily mind all the "it depends"), although I have been a poster.  But I agree it seems we have a number of silent spectators.  Please speak up!  It benefits all.

-Todd

Thanks for your excellent comments, Scott!  Perhaps I didn't make myself clear -- the leg drop happens when I stop kicking and try using the pull buoys.  But your comments concerning body roll make perfect sense.  I like the idea of "reaching for the far wall" and following through all the way to the hip to help encourage the roll.  Those are two concepts which I can readily visualize, and frankly can't wait to try the next time I'm in the pool.  I'm also thinking about finding a coach who can help me with some basic stroke mechanics, so I don't end up teaching myself a bunch of bad habits that I have to unlearn down the road.

Thanks again for the very helpful comments.

Gary 

I think that's a good idea Jim.  Looks like some of the folks who hopped on board at the beginning have fallen off.

Decent week of training for me last week, and I'm starting to get some semblence of consistency going again.  Managed 4 runs last week, and will look to slowly increase the volumes.  My big fear remains any run over 10km, as I worry that the ITB will go again - if I keep runs below that distance I can trick mysel finto believing that I'm healed.  Finally have buckled down and am using the foam roller on an almost daily basis and hoping that helps.