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Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed (Page 10)
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 2014-01-12 8:25 PM in reply to: markhodges1973 |
Pro  4723    CyFair |  Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed1:20 water run today. So much FUN!!! #Sarcasm
Off to New Orleans on Wednesday for the USAT Coaching Clinic. I'll get a couple of runs in while I'm there. It's supposed to be coldish. |
| 2014-01-12 8:25 PM in reply to: markhodges1973 |
Pro 4723 CyFair | Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed 1:20 water run today. So much FUN!!! #Sarcasm
Off to New Orleans on Wednesday for the USAT Coaching Clinic. I'll get a couple of runs in while I'm there. It's supposed to be coldish. |
| 2014-01-12 8:57 PM in reply to: uhcoog |
243 Lincoln, Nebraska | Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed I don't know what a 1:20 water run even means. But apparently it isn't fun. Ok, I have a question to ask. I need to get my running miles up (ok, and biking and swimming). Running is the most taxing to my body, my weakest discipline, and hardest to improve (and I usually have a nagging knee slowing me down). Here is my question. Is it best to just focus on slowly adding miles and run in HR zone 2 than it is to worry about speed work? Zone 1/2 tends to flair my knee up like no other, but I could run all day in zone 2. I have only been running about 3 miles twice a week (sometimes 4 miles once a week) these last several months. Advice? |
| 2014-01-12 9:59 PM in reply to: #4929582 |
| 41 | Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed Speed work can and should wait in my opinion. I am also of the opinion that improving your swim and bike will improve your run. If it doesn't bother your knee I'd step up your swim and bike workouts until the knee improves and gradually increase your run mileage as your knee allows |
| 2014-01-13 5:14 AM in reply to: Dangerjim71 |
New user 273 Manassas, Virginia | Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed Originally posted by Dangerjim71 Speed work can and should wait in my opinion. I am also of the opinion that improving your swim and bike will improve your run. If it doesn't bother your knee I'd step up your swim and bike workouts until the knee improves and gradually increase your run mileage as your knee allows Definitely agree with waiting on the speed work. I had some nagging knee pain a few weeks ago (and still do every now and then) that pretty much went away once I dropped the run mileage a bit. I'd suggest doing what you can and not pushing it; it's not worth risking your whole season over some unneeded overtraining. |
| 2014-01-13 7:57 AM in reply to: #4929939 |
| 97 | Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed Crissey...I am not sure what your running history is but I also agree skip the speed work at this point, but I think perhaps you need to run more. Keep the low mileage, so if you are at 6 mi 2x a week, keep it at 6 but divide it up between 3-4 days, same volume just more often. This would help to strengthen your knees, assuming there is not an injury. Also agree with adding in some bike and swim. I also think that a once a week 4 mi run is going to be much more stressful on your knees that 3-4 short runs. I have not been swimming since Thanksgiving and I miss it...but I have been busy and last week was freaking cold here! I am interested to see what Scott and Kelly have to say about your run. |
| 2014-01-13 8:16 AM in reply to: dace |
Veteran 501 Seattle, Washington | Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed I would also agree to avoid the speed work. Usually your run form becomes more sloppy as you get tired during speed work and will increase the chance of injury. As far as the knee, don't know what the issue is, but have you done any PT with it? Perhaps biking will help build up some different stabilizers and perhaps some strength work could help as well. |
| 2014-01-13 8:24 AM in reply to: crissy_jo |
Pro 4723 CyFair | Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed Originally posted by crissy_jo I don't know what a 1:20 water run even means. But apparently it isn't fun. Ok, I have a question to ask. I need to get my running miles up (ok, and biking and swimming). Running is the most taxing to my body, my weakest discipline, and hardest to improve (and I usually have a nagging knee slowing me down). Here is my question. Is it best to just focus on slowly adding miles and run in HR zone 2 than it is to worry about speed work? Zone 1/2 tends to flair my knee up like no other, but I could run all day in zone 2. I have only been running about 3 miles twice a week (sometimes 4 miles once a week) these last several months. Advice?
Water running is just that. Running in a pool so that there isn't any impact on your knee. Very monotonous and very boring. That said I decided to go out and test the knee on the road. I'm very giddy about how good my knee feels this morning.
My best advice is run slow a lot and run fast a little. If you're going to run 3 times a week I'd look at one long run that increases 5-10 minutes a week, a recovery run and an interval run that you can cycle through tempo interval, hill intervals, etc. Play with the times.
As to why your knee hurts more on slower runs you may want to look at your form. Many times when people slow down they let their stride get heavy and when they run at tempo they are very light on the ground. Check and see because the change in impact may be what's bugging your knee. |
| 2014-01-13 10:43 AM in reply to: markhodges1973 |
Veteran 580 | Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed Originally posted by markhodges1973 Awesome job on the PR and keeping it together under the new feelings!! One of my goals this year is to hit a 1:40 so might need some training tips :-) Great job! Thanks Mark. I appreciate it and welcome aboard by the way. As far as training tips, I just do what I am told. |
| 2014-01-13 10:46 AM in reply to: crissy_jo |
Veteran 580 | Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed Originally posted by crissy_jo I don't know what a 1:20 water run even means. But apparently it isn't fun. Ok, I have a question to ask. I need to get my running miles up (ok, and biking and swimming). Running is the most taxing to my body, my weakest discipline, and hardest to improve (and I usually have a nagging knee slowing me down). Here is my question. Is it best to just focus on slowly adding miles and run in HR zone 2 than it is to worry about speed work? Zone 1/2 tends to flair my knee up like no other, but I could run all day in zone 2. I have only been running about 3 miles twice a week (sometimes 4 miles once a week) these last several months. Advice? Agree with everyone's responses. Build a good base before speed work and slowly increase miles. |
| 2014-01-13 11:28 AM in reply to: dace |
New user 43 Robbinsville | Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed Beginner Question Friday my training plan called for a 1000 yard TT. So I followed the plan. WU : 500 8 X 50 MS: 1000 TT 100 Easy 3 X 200 CD : 200 Came out with a 20:23:86 TT. I also felt really good in the water and after the swim. In my beginner head, I am doubling that and forgetting about the other 112 yards for a HIM and saying 40 minutes is going to be my swim time in 8 months. The question becomes, is that a respectable time? How will pool times compare to an open water swim? I am not, as we all know, an accomplished swimmer. So my turnarounds in the pool are sloppy and slow. I try not to push off the wall. Will 40 minutes be middle of the pack or way back at the end? |
| 2014-01-13 11:32 AM in reply to: ccmpsyd |
| 243 Lincoln, Nebraska | Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed Water run = Aqua jog. Don't know why that didn't occur to me when I read it the first time. Duh. Thanks everyone for the feed back. I feel like I should be doing speed work, but will NOT be doing any until I get my mileage up to where it should be. I don't know what is wrong with my knee. I have had issues with it for a few years. I have a hard time defining what the issue is and where exactly the pain actually is - which is why I have been hesitant to get it looked at. Pain will typically start on the inside of the knee but then seems to quickly rotate all around the knee and isn't in just one particular spot. I do have something that pops in there (feels like inner side of knee) when I bend my knee (doesn't hurt when it pops), perhaps it's something, perhaps not. I primarily suspect it is related to my running form & weakness (hips, knees, butt, who knows), but I can usually get short runs done pain free. And I seem to be able to run a little further/longer if I throw on a $20 knee brace from Walgreens. I just hate wearing it. I'll look at adding in more runs that are of short distance. I think that definitely sounds like a good plan and then work one of those runs up in mileage. Short runs seem much less intimidating to me than long runs (always scared the knee will flare up). So frequent short runs for a few weeks and we'll see how the knee deals with it. Thanks again all. I really, really appreciate your feedback and advice. |
| 2014-01-13 11:57 AM in reply to: crissy_jo |
Pro 4723 CyFair | Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed With triathletes most running injuries have a root cause in the hip/glute area. It generally centers around mobility or a muscle imbalance. Focusing on these muscles is ALWAYS a good idea. (remember most injury causes are one joint away from the actual pain) Foam rolling, dynamic stretching, and strength training that involve that area of the body are keys to staying injury free. |
| 2014-01-13 12:03 PM in reply to: poolgod |
Veteran 501 Seattle, Washington | Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed Originally posted by poolgod Came out with a 20:23:86 TT. I also felt really good in the water and after the swim. In my beginner head, I am doubling that and forgetting about the other 112 yards for a HIM and saying 40 minutes is going to be my swim time in 8 months. The question becomes, is that a respectable time? How will pool times compare to an open water swim? I am not, as we all know, an accomplished swimmer. So my turnarounds in the pool are sloppy and slow. I try not to push off the wall. Will 40 minutes be middle of the pack or way back at the end? Swimming! Here are my thoughts: Yes, 40 minutes would be a respectable time. Don't get too hung up on that time though. It'll be slower for being twice the distance. The comparison of pool v. open water depends alot on the OWS conditions, your ability to sight well, swim in a straight line and your comfort with people around you. Open water can be faster because you don't have to constantly turn around. For that reason, don't worry about trying not to push off the wall during your TT. There is a reason Olympic swimmers have a faster 100m time in a 50 meter rather than a 25 meter pool. Turns, even well-executed with great push off, are slower than continuous swimming. Push off the wall. Perhaps see if you can get someone to teach you a flip turn. WAY TO GO with that TT!! Nice work. |
| 2014-01-13 12:04 PM in reply to: poolgod |
Pro 4723 CyFair | Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed Originally posted by poolgod Beginner Question Friday my training plan called for a 1000 yard TT. So I followed the plan. WU : 500 8 X 50 MS: 1000 TT 100 Easy 3 X 200 CD : 200 Came out with a 20:23:86 TT. I also felt really good in the water and after the swim. In my beginner head, I am doubling that and forgetting about the other 112 yards for a HIM and saying 40 minutes is going to be my swim time in 8 months. The question becomes, is that a respectable time? How will pool times compare to an open water swim? I am not, as we all know, an accomplished swimmer. So my turnarounds in the pool are sloppy and slow. I try not to push off the wall. Will 40 minutes be middle of the pack or way back at the end?
40 minutes is pretty much middle of the pack in most races. How your pool swim translates is ENTIRELY individual. I can swim 1:30-1:40s in the pool pretty routinely. Not so much in the open water. Kelly is faster than I am, but has the same issue.
Now do I think that particular test is indicative of a HIM time? Maybe, but there are better tests. The test you noted gives you a long TT interval, but you really don't clock how you fatigue. There are a lot of people that can kill the first 1000m of a HIM but die off towards the end of the swim. A better test would be as follows: 1 x 200 Warm up..
Ideally all 3 of the 800s are very similar in time. Most people new to swimming may have 2 nearly identical times, but #3 drops off a good bit. I think the test you did may lull you into a false sense of where your swim endurance is. |
| 2014-01-13 12:06 PM in reply to: MechEChick |
Pro 4723 CyFair | Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed Originally posted by MechEChick Originally posted by poolgod Came out with a 20:23:86 TT. I also felt really good in the water and after the swim. In my beginner head, I am doubling that and forgetting about the other 112 yards for a HIM and saying 40 minutes is going to be my swim time in 8 months. The question becomes, is that a respectable time? How will pool times compare to an open water swim? I am not, as we all know, an accomplished swimmer. So my turnarounds in the pool are sloppy and slow. I try not to push off the wall. Will 40 minutes be middle of the pack or way back at the end? Swimming! Here are my thoughts: Yes, 40 minutes would be a respectable time. Don't get too hung up on that time though. It'll be slower for being twice the distance. The comparison of pool v. open water depends alot on the OWS conditions, your ability to sight well, swim in a straight line and your comfort with people around you. Open water can be faster because you don't have to constantly turn around. For that reason, don't worry about trying not to push off the wall during your TT. There is a reason Olympic swimmers have a faster 100m time in a 50 meter rather than a 25 meter pool. Turns, even well-executed with great push off, are slower than continuous swimming. Push off the wall. Perhaps see if you can get someone to teach you a flip turn. WAY TO GO with that TT!! Nice work.
Oh and i second the flip turns. Here is a good link on them:
http://ironmomma.com/2011/04/23/how-to-do-a-flip-turn/ |
| 2014-01-13 12:51 PM in reply to: crissy_jo |
Veteran 580 | Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed Originally posted by crissy_jo Water run = Aqua jog. Don't know why that didn't occur to me when I read it the first time. Duh. Thanks everyone for the feed back. I feel like I should be doing speed work, but will NOT be doing any until I get my mileage up to where it should be. I don't know what is wrong with my knee. I have had issues with it for a few years. I have a hard time defining what the issue is and where exactly the pain actually is - which is why I have been hesitant to get it looked at. Pain will typically start on the inside of the knee but then seems to quickly rotate all around the knee and isn't in just one particular spot. I do have something that pops in there (feels like inner side of knee) when I bend my knee (doesn't hurt when it pops), perhaps it's something, perhaps not. I primarily suspect it is related to my running form & weakness (hips, knees, butt, who knows), but I can usually get short runs done pain free. And I seem to be able to run a little further/longer if I throw on a $20 knee brace from Walgreens. I just hate wearing it. I'll look at adding in more runs that are of short distance. I think that definitely sounds like a good plan and then work one of those runs up in mileage. Short runs seem much less intimidating to me than long runs (always scared the knee will flare up). So frequent short runs for a few weeks and we'll see how the knee deals with it. Thanks again all. I really, really appreciate your feedback and advice. Perhaps it might be time to bite the bullet and see an ortho guy and/or PT? I have had 2 ACL reconstructions (one recent) and my PT guy was terrific in identifying the ways in which my stride/body impact my knees and put me on a really good strengthening program. It might be nothing and could be remedied by specific strength exercises. |
| 2014-01-13 5:04 PM in reply to: uhcoog |
New user 43 Robbinsville | Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed Thanks for all the feedback. All of it helps. I have been waiting for an off day I can get to the pool to work on flip turns. I know I should be using them, but I didn't want to screw up my breathing by swallowing half the pool doing a sloppy flip turn. I realize I cant just double the first TT I have ever done. To be honest, it was the first time I had swam 1000 non stop in ten years. So just finishing the 1000 was a big deal in my head. I do like the idea of using 3 X 800 TT. That makes more sense to me.My plan has me doing a TT every fourth week, is that something I want to keep on that interval? Three weeks of base building, a TT and then a week of easier work. And I am only doing an Olympic plan for 12 weeks, to get me in shape and to get me to a longer HIM plan come spring. But a 3 X 800 could realistically be done every four weeks to mark progress, correct? |
| 2014-01-13 5:35 PM in reply to: poolgod |
Veteran 501 Seattle, Washington | Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed Originally posted by poolgod To be honest, it was the first time I had swam 1000 non stop in ten years. So just finishing the 1000 was a big deal in my head. Nice work!! |
| 2014-01-13 6:01 PM in reply to: poolgod |
New user 273 Manassas, Virginia | Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed Originally posted by poolgod Came out with a 20:23:86 TT. I also felt really good in the water and after the swim. In my beginner head, I am doubling that and forgetting about the other 112 yards for a HIM and saying 40 minutes is going to be my swim time in 8 months. The question becomes, is that a respectable time? How will pool times compare to an open water swim? I am not, as we all know, an accomplished swimmer. So my turnarounds in the pool are sloppy and slow. I try not to push off the wall. Will 40 minutes be middle of the pack or way back at the end? First of all, awesome job! I completely agree with Scott on this one. A lot of factors can affect your TT including nutrition, rest, water conditions, etc. As for your 1000 TT transferring into a 2000, I'm not so sure; that will really depend on your endurance level. I have a fairly good idea of what pace I can hold for a 1000 and what pace I can hold for a 2000. But, I have a pretty strong background in swimming so take that with a grain. If you keep up the workouts that you have been doing, I have no doubt that eight months from now you will be sub-40 minutes. It takes a lot of work to build up your endurance to get to the level where you can maintain a solid pace for that length of time. I think the 3 x 800 is a really great way to test your endurance. Sometimes those longer pools swims become very monotonous and I have found myself spacing out and forgetting how far I've gone. When you drop the distance and up the repetitions you eliminate some of that monotony. Keep up the awesome work man. |
| 2014-01-13 6:05 PM in reply to: poolgod |
New user 273 Manassas, Virginia | Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed Originally posted by poolgod I have been waiting for an off day I can get to the pool to work on flip turns. I know I should be using them, but I didn't want to screw up my breathing by swallowing half the pool doing a sloppy flip turn. Practice your flip turns by holding the lane line and pulling yourself over it (do a somersault). Once you're comfortable doing it with the lane line, try doing that somersault motion without the lane line. Next, try doing that motion next to the wall, but not pushing off. Once you're comfortable with that motion spend 5-10 minutes practicing your turns on the wall, not during a set. Hard to describe all of this over the internet, but I've taught plenty of people to do flip turns with the lane line! |
| 2014-01-13 6:48 PM in reply to: poolgod |
| 243 Lincoln, Nebraska | Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed Originally posted by poolgod I have been waiting for an off day I can get to the pool to work on flip turns. I know I should be using them, but I didn't want to screw up my breathing by swallowing half the pool doing a sloppy flip turn. I don't care for flip turns and am completely happen with open turns. Much easier and I get a big breath of air instead of the chance to get water up my nose. It's my only joy when it comes to lap swimming. :-) |
| 2014-01-13 6:55 PM in reply to: ccmpsyd |
| 243 Lincoln, Nebraska | Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed Originally posted by ccmpsyd Perhaps it might be time to bite the bullet and see an ortho guy and/or PT? I have had 2 ACL reconstructions (one recent) and my PT guy was terrific in identifying the ways in which my stride/body impact my knees and put me on a really good strengthening program. It might be nothing and could be remedied by specific strength exercises. My husband keeps telling me to go too. I'll give this running thing one more try and if it doesn't work out I'll go.  |
| 2014-01-13 8:55 PM in reply to: poolgod |
Pro 4723 CyFair | Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed Originally posted by poolgod Thanks for all the feedback. All of it helps. I have been waiting for an off day I can get to the pool to work on flip turns. I know I should be using them, but I didn't want to screw up my breathing by swallowing half the pool doing a sloppy flip turn. I realize I cant just double the first TT I have ever done. To be honest, it was the first time I had swam 1000 non stop in ten years. So just finishing the 1000 was a big deal in my head. I do like the idea of using 3 X 800 TT. That makes more sense to me.My plan has me doing a TT every fourth week, is that something I want to keep on that interval? Three weeks of base building, a TT and then a week of easier work. And I am only doing an Olympic plan for 12 weeks, to get me in shape and to get me to a longer HIM plan come spring. But a 3 X 800 could realistically be done every four weeks to mark progress, correct? I'm a fan of putting 3-4 weeks of building and then 1 week where you cut some volume off (not intensity) and then start to build volume again. I'm ok with more novice swimmers testing every weeks. It will give feedback on if you're fixing the issues you've been attempting to in the past training block by comparing times. Once you address basic issues/low hanging fruit (endurance, hip drop, poor pull form, etc) your time gains will start to slow and you can start to space your testing out a bit.
In general I like aerobic/power testing on the bike and run every 6-8 weeks. It gives you time to make fitness gains and make the appropriate zone changes. |
| 2014-01-13 9:02 PM in reply to: Dunn Right |
New user 43 Robbinsville | Subject: RE: Scott and Kelly's Mentor Group- Closed I completely agree with what your saying. I was shocked at how easy and comfortable I was during the 1000. I will still tell you I could have kept that pace for 2112. In reality, I am just excited with my progress in the pool. I did not think I would move this quickly with my endurance. The truth is a really bad swimmer can make some drastic time changes with proper technique and a little endurance. I asked the time question because I swim next to a high school club team, and those young kids are whipping by me. Watching a 16 year old fly by you in 25 makes it hard to judge your speed. I also think those kids look like they are putting a lot less effort into their stroke than I am. So I am working on eliminating dead spots in the stroke. I say that, but I am still learning what that means in the pool. I am going to move into flip turns. I have done them before just goofing around in the pool. So i can do them. They can't be that hard to work into your laps. The video posted is about as simple as it gets. I just need to do it. The next drill day I have in the pool, I will work them in. I think it's important not to get that extra breath at each end of the pool for my endurance. Right now I love my swim workouts. Counting laps sucks! But I am the guy that forces myself to swim the extra lap if I lose count. So it doesn't happen often! I broke the 1000 down into four 250's during my swim. I didn't plan it, but it happened. That seemed to settle my mind a bit. I have a long course pool in my area but times are sparse. That would help. Thanks for the encouragement. I'll keep everyone posted on my flip turns. |
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