Newbz'z summer mentor group is FULL!!!! (Page 101)

Like all rules, there are times theycan/should be broken, most of us cant run 60-100 miles a week, so we aim for that 25-30% during normal training and have to up it a bit with the marathon build.

ie for someone running 30-40 miles a week going over 10 for a long run is really not the best plan, but for a bit in a marathon build you need to, but i would never recommend that long term.

Keeping on with this topic - I just ran my longest run since September (a little over 5 miles).  I have a half marathon scheduled for late spring and will start upping my volume a few months out. However, until then I need to come up with a plan for winter maintenance.  I would like to improve my run times and increase volume, but don't know what that sweet spot is in terms of miles per week and length of long run should be. Right now I am running about 12 mpw w/ my long run around 5 miles  (I know that is way more than 33%!). I know this is a personal choice based on time and commitment, but what would everyone else do in my shoes. 

my first order of business would be to build up to 20ish mpw slowly, get there, and then maintain that for a bit so it feels natural/doesn't beat you up. would not worry too much about longer runs but slowly build through some short easy runs added into your current schedule (10-20 min is more than enough as you build them up).

once you get used to 20ish, then i would look to a half marathon plan that fits where you are fitness wise and mileage wise, and follow that into the race.

This was kind of what I was asking too.  I personally don't see this as a problem since I have already had some runs twice the distance I am looking to do over the winter.  I was basically looking at the 10 mile runs as a maintenance type program because I am likely to complete another marathon next year and this would be a good place to build my base back up.  During my last month or so of training I was completing mid week runs of 8-10 miles on a regular basis.  And some of these runs were tempo pace runs.  So I feel confident that my fitness is good.

When I asked my question, I was trying to get a feel if it would be a good idea or not to approach my run training this way.

Edit:
Robin, I would take David's advice here.  I think if I had a better base prior to my "A" race this year I would have been a little more prepared for it.  Maybe gotten a slightly better time or, more likely, felt much better during the final 2 miles.  A slower base building and short maintenance type period would give you more confidence to start more building toward the HM distance.  I am likely to incorporate the same type of process as I get back into marathon shape in mid-spring.


Edited by DirkP 2010-11-23 5:39 PM

To go off what dirk said above,

the longer runs are important in in marathon racing, and to a lesser extent in the shorter races (they still have their place down to people racing even the mile), but the overall volume will matter WAY more.

aside from the mental aspect of knowing you can go that distance, someone running 30-40 miles a week with no single run longer than 6-8 miles will crush someone running 20 a week with a weekly 10-13 miler in there, simply because their volume is much larger.

Now if you can put down a period of slightly higher mileage (doesn't have to be a peak for you, but say you are running 15 now, and the plan calls for an ave of 25-30, you run a few weeks/months of 20per week before you start the plan).

Now you take someone else that just starts the plan once they are able. the one with the prior weeks of base are going to come out much further ahead due to the extra time just running. its an accumulative process and it takes time, and no single workout is going to make or break it (ie the long run vs total volume matters very little for something like a half marathon). Or in other words, without the volume the long run is not going to do it thing.

With all that's being said (to make sure I have a correct understanding of things) is my plan of running a 5 miler and a 10 miler at my current fitness level an appropriate maintenance plan?  I will add a 2-3 mile run when I have the time but I am not figuring on it right now. 

BTW, everyone have a happy Thanksgiving!  I am planning a 4 mile race tomorrow morning.............in a pouring rain............with 40 degree temps...............and 5-10mph winds..............Awesome!  I'll make this a PR, I hope, so I am not out there very long.  I am hoping for a 27:00 time.  This would be a huge PR if I can do it.  There are some smaller hills on this route but nothing long.  Just a couple that are kind of steep.

are you asking if two runs of 5 and 10 miles each is a good plan, probably not the smartest idea (i know i for one would proabbly get hurt doing that).

can you get a 3rd day per week in?

Yeah.  Thats pretty much the question.  I probably can get a third 50% of the time but there would the other half that I couldn't.  I would like to keep the longest of my runs at 10 miles.  When I can get a third run in a week what would you suggest for my runs?  When I can get those other runs in, I was thinking about a 3, 5 and 10 type week.

i think you'd be better off doing something like 3x5-7mi.

that 10 miler on its own/with one other run wont really do much fitness wise and will start to beat you up a decent amount without the rest of the mileage there (running twice a week you'll start to lose fitness and durability so you'll slowly break down. how long that takes will be dependent on you/how much fitness you have/how easily you get hurt. Think about it like this, you would not do 5 and 10 miles as your only runs when new. sooner or later running twice a week you are gonna get back to that point.

trying to maintain some fitness is going to be better accomplished with frequency (even if only 2-3x a week).

Ran a 10 mile turkey trot today.  Idea being to not use a watch and predict your time which is good pacing practice for the upcoming marathon.

I picked 1:27:30, since that's an 8:45 pace and would get me sub 3:50.  So the idea was to try and run that pace and see how I felt.  I knew I went out a little too fast, but once I got warmed up, that pace felt pretty comfortable.  Not "easy" like the first 10 miles should feel...but I'm not tapered, and I had really bad sleep the last 2 nights.

Finished feeling really good at 1:23:27.  So I wasn't even close.  Paced 8:21, but I felt like I could keep that pace for at least another 3-5 miles without hurting.  I'm a slave to my watch...so if I can use my watch to dial it in at 8:45, I think that's a pace I can definately handle on a good day for my marathon.

Only time will tell...less than 3 weeks.

Wow, I did a 4 mile race this morning and thought I was accomplishing something.  I, however, would not give up my watch!  I am definitely a slave to my watch too.  Last year I ran the same race without a watch and I couldn't stand it.  I did okay for my race but I don't have any official times or results yet.  My watch says I finished at 27:18 (7:51).  I am anxious to see the results because I am anal that way I guess.

I did finish within the first 180 runners because I got a loaf of pumpkin bread and thats how they reward people at this race.  This was the first year I have gotten there soon enough.  I know my placement was decent because I hung around the finish line for a while and saw more bread being passed out.

Happy Thanksgiving to all of you.



Edited by DirkP 2010-11-25 4:02 PM

Congrats on the race results and Happy Thanksgiving to everyone.

RR report is up for today.  I am pretty happy about my results although I was hoping a little bit higher AG placement but with the field more than twice the size as last years it's gonna be harder to place higher.  I was :04 off my goal pace of 6:45 but its all good.  This was a hilly course.

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=234733&posts=1&start=1

hope everyone had a great thanksgiving!!!

To those that raced, nice job as well.



A 10mile turkey trot..... you sure this was not a turkey migration??




I raced a 5 miler on dirt trails/fire roads as well. Was not planning on running it but went with friends and when i got there it was COLD so i dug through my car to find something to race in, only shorts i found were my 4inch swim briefs.... SOOOOO, i put those on, no shirt, a wine red tie (it was a "classy thanksgiving" race), and a pair of batman gloves, and was off.

Ended up low 29min and was not really killing myself (heck i was having WAY too much fun running and high fiving people wearing that;-)

will post a photo if they are PG rated once they come out.


nice job and hope everyone had a great day!

LOL...I suppose I don't know any better as this has been going on here on Oahu for quite some time.  My original thought when finding out that other Turkey Trots are about 5k is that those were really short runs...hehehe.

But like I mentioned before...the purpose of the run is to help you pace the first 10 miles of the Honolulu Marathon.  The marathon is by far the biggest race of the year in the state.  And being that many people do not travel outside the state to race...it's the A race for most people here.  I guess they figured if they only made it a 5k race, many people would not participate as they are more geared to a marathon training type run.

I got a couple of runs in yesterday and today.  A 6 miler yesterday and a 5 miler this morning.  Today's was kind of uncomfortable for about a mile but I was able to get out of the funk I seemed to be in.  At one point, about 2.5 miles into it, I got just a little lightheaded or something.  It was kinda weird.  I think it was the cold air.  It was 19 degrees when I left the house.

BTW David, I am going to do my winter runs similar to your suggestion.  The only difference will be I will add an additional mile to the longest run of the week.  My week will be 5, 5, 8.  These past 3 runs have been a pretty comfortable pace at around 7:50 to 8:00 miles.  I think all the marathon training has made these runs feel more comfortable and I hope to carry this fitness into my run training for my second marathon later next year.

Finished my last long run today.  Legs felt good, so decided to go 20.  Went slightly faster than last week, and felt about the same afterwards.

So the work is done.  Now time to taper...throw in a few short runs here and there and see what happens.

dirk, that sounds like a much better idea.

also, if you are doing anything else, you'll maintain/get back that run fitness much easier, but thats only part of the equation, the other side is the durability which is why spreading it out some is a good plan (like you are saying you want to do).

or in other words, to maintain, 15 miles a week over 2 runs will do less for you than that same mileage over 3 runs due to less pounding with the shorter runs and getting your body used to it more often.

You sound like you're on the right track.
And it doesn't always have to be that exact, one week you might be able to squeak in one more run, another one less, etc.

I hope everyone had a great thanksgiving weekend.  My family had a great time at the yurt in colorado.  There was enough snow to ski in, which was great b/c we were able to pile on all our crap (including satelite radio and 30 pack of beer for football purposes) onto sleds and drag them in! We were able to get a couple of x-country ski outings in as well - don't know if they qualify for my workout logs as I was with a 5 & 7 year olds, but it was a blast.

thanks for everyones help in getting a handle on my running plan.  I will try and up my runs to 4x a week for now. That should get my volume between 13 and 16 miles.  After I do this for a few weeks I will reevaluate the plan.

I am working on a start of a cold, today's 2000 yd swim and 2 1/4 mile run were tough!

P.S. David - photos of afforementioned "turkey trot" would be welcomed!

Jackie - good luck on your HM this weekend!!!!  You are going to kill it- can't wait to hear all about it.  And remember to Have FUN!

Likewise Jackie............God luck this weekend.   Your gonna smoke up the course.

Good luck Jackie.  Run hard and have fun.  At some point, it will hurt...embrace it.  It's God's way of telling you you're alive...and you're doing something many people aren't willing to.

Good luck Jackie!!

Wow, thanks for remembering everyone I'm on my way to pick up my race packet now. Hopefully the weather stays the same. Perfect running weather here.