Ridgelake's Group - Filled up with Fantastic Folks! (Page 12)
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Member ![]() ![]() | ![]() Good Monday morning fellow triathletes!!! Hope everyone had a great week end!! I run alone alot and have to resort to the treadmill during the winter, so I love my i pod. Had the same tempo problem with my music, so I let my 15 year old load music for me and wow, what a difference. So I have everything from metalica to marilyn manson, nickleback to life house but the tempo is great and somewhat motivating. He has pretty good taste in music and has all clean versions of the songs, so pretty great!! Also started listening to books on tape and that is also great. Swimming is some days great and some days not. I have said before that one of the best things I did was take an endurance swim class through the local community college. There always seems to be a local experienced triathlete at the pool who will watch you swim and help you out. I was told that swimming should just feel like a warm up during a triathlon so I REALLY look foreward that day ![]() Have a great week and fore those of us with March events YIKES!!! |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Question- I have been reading about recovery supplements. Any thoughts on these? Sometimes I feel like I could do so much more if I wasn't so sore. I am not a big one for drugs or unnatural things (I don't even take aspirin unless I absolutely have to) so I want to be sure that if I take something it is a help and not an unnatural substance with bad side effects or something else harmful. I also know that with the added demands that I am placing on my body that I need to take care of it in the process. Any ideas or thoughts? Scott |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Hi everyone. I was out of town for a couple of days, and am now getting back into things. Music. Dance stuff is good. Aerobics stuff is good. Stuff from your 15 year old is good. Swimming: ANother vote for getting lessons. Might be a swim class, as mentioned. Might be private. Might be through Masters Swimming. Longer term, Masters swimming is a fabulous deal. Coached workouts. A group to swim with. A really, really good value. Recovery nutrition: Scott, drink some chocolate milk. It has almost the perfect ratio of carbs to proteins. Its fairly cheap and gives you everything you need. I'll see if I can dig up some articles on the subject. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Another thought about swimming. Get a copy of Terry Laughlin's Total Immersion Swimming. I'd recommend both the book and the DVD. It really shows you how to develop a very nice tri swim stroke. |
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Regular ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Ridgelake - 2008-02-18 7:20 PM Scott, drink some chocolate milk. It has almost the perfect ratio of carbs to proteins. Its fairly cheap and gives you everything you need. I'll see if I can dig up some articles on the subject. I love this sport! I'm SUPPOSED to drink chocolate milk! Well, ok, if I have to... Thanks for the input about running music everyone. My library checks out cd's so I'm going to get fully loaded with rock/dance/ stuff with a beat. For my outdoor runs I'll think of something to think about. Another thing I love about this sport (does this happen to you?): If I mention that I'm training for a triathlon, people somehow hear "marathon" or they hear "Ironman." I try twice to explain what a sprint tri is, and if they still don't get it, I just let them think I'm running a marathon and doing the ironman in Hawaii. "Look for me on TV!" Welcome back Ridge. Jo |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Scott, here is a link to an book/article about nutrition and endurance sports. Its produced by Hammer Nutrition, so it includes a lot of sales/marketing info for their products. But the science behind it is good. http://www.e-caps.com/downloads/fuelinghandbook.pdf Chapter 11, starting on page 42, deals with post-workout recovery. |
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Member ![]() ![]() | ![]() I do the chocolate milk thing and it is fantastic. Glad you're back, Ridge! I miss your words of encouragement every monday morning when you are not here!!! |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() holt1997 - 2008-02-18 7:41 PM Sometimes I feel like I could do so much more if I wasn't so sore. I've been thinking about this statement since I read it last night. I think this might segue into a very important topic. Something critical for long term success in this sport. Scott, what are you doing thats causing you to be sore? Can you please elaborate on what workouts and what intensities are causing you to be sore? |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Ridgelake - 2008-02-19 11:53 AM holt1997 - 2008-02-18 7:41 PM Sometimes I feel like I could do so much more if I wasn't so sore. I've been thinking about this statement since I read it last night. I think this might segue into a very important topic. Something critical for long term success in this sport. Scott, what are you doing thats causing you to be sore? Can you please elaborate on what workouts and what intensities are causing you to be sore? Well all my workouts make me sore for the most part. Some definately more than others. The type of soreness I have is definately muscular in nature. My joints don't ache and my knees are doing fine. Usually the next day after a workout my quads, calves and lately since I have taken off on the bike the front of my lower legs (shins) have been achey too. Sunday is a good example of a training day for me. I went for a hike in the morning and it has a sharp gain for 2 miles straight. My legs were a little sore for the first 1/2 mile then started to warm up and felt great. Then on the way down my quads were achey for a bit then loosened up. Later that day I went for a run for 5.25 miles. I was sore for the first mile then felt great. It was my best run by far. But then I went back to being sore that night and the next day. I also know I need some rest so I took the day off on Monday to let my body recoup. I hope this helps you understand. Let me know if you need more clarification. I have started the chocolate milk and if nothing else it tastes great!!! Thanks for your help and thoughtful consideration. Scott |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Scott, On the hike, were your legs sore from the hike itself or from previous workouts? The run afterwards. How fast did you run? How close is this to your 10K race pace? What was your perceived exersion level? High? medium? easy? Generally when you run or bike, how intensely are you doing it? |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() On the hike my legs were sore from previous workouts. Once they warmed up the hike felt great. Most of my workouts are medium to medium hard. Easy workouts are actually very hard to me because I can't wrap my mind around a workout that doesn't feel challenging. The run on sunday afternoon was below 8 minutes a mile. It is where I would like to be but I know I have to continue to work at this to have this pace happen after two legs of a triathlon. I do try to set up my workouts so I have one that is longer and harder than another. For example I have a 4 mile run today and on saturday I will probably run towards 8 or 9. Well I hope this helps. Scott |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() If I may be a topic hog...how important is weight training? I thought it was but finding time has been difficult and I just want to make sure I am not missing out on something key. |
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Regular ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() You can certainly put me in the "sore after most workouts" group. I've always just assumed it came with the territory. By definition, doesn't building up muscles require breaking them down first? I think I heard the term "muscular micro tears" once. It most often is associated with running for me. perhaps it is because running is the highest impact of the 3? |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() holt1997 - 2008-02-20 9:39 AM Most of my workouts are medium to medium hard. Easy workouts are actually very hard to me because I can't wrap my mind around a workout that doesn't feel challenging. I was guessing this was the case. I know exactly how this feels. I was the exact same way a couple of years ago. If you haven't already, I strongly recommend that you get a copy of Jack Daniel's Running Formulas. Its maybe $15. Daniels is one of the top running coaches in the country and has worked with runners from high school athletes to Olympic medalists. In his book, he talks about putting together ideal running plans based upon pacing and desired race lengths. In his programs, about 80% of all running is done at "Easy Pace" aka Epace, a pace thats approximately 2 minutes/mile slower than 10K race pace. At that pace, you stress the majority of the systems needed for effective running. But you don't overstress the body such that it requires recovery periods. This allows running day after day after day. Consistency. Repeatability. Low risk of injury. Now, running at more intense paces will stress some additional body systems above and beyond running at Epace. And thats why Daniels suggests about 20% of running at higher paces. But there's a significant cost to running harder. And thats in recovery time and injury risk. Earlier in this thread on Page 4, I posted an article titled Interactions Between Training Sessions - Part II. In it, Paulo Sousa, the author, identifies the length of time that the body needs to recover from different types of workouts. Copying from that article, we have: - Extensive Endurance: 8 to 12 hours. Medium to hard runs likely fall in the Intensive Endurance to Extinsive/Intensive Anaerobic Training. The recover periods for those workouts are 30 to 48 hours. This means that the body hasnt fully recovered and adapted to/incorporated the workout stress of an intense run by the next day. The repeatability on a daily basis can't reasonably be had. In contrast, the Epace runs require only an 8 to 12 hour recovery. The point I'm trying to make is that the science supports running and training at easy paces the majority of the time. But not just the science, but also the real world results. Its optimal to do most tri training at relaxed paces. The biggest gains over time come about that way. Please, do yourself a favor. Go get the Daniels book. It really is a great read for understanding how to best improve. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Interesting timing of this email from my former coach's group...... The myth of Long Slow Distance (LSD)LSD or "running slowly" is relative to each person. Credit: Triathlete magazine Mike Ricci
I don't think of 'Long Slow Distance' as being as slow as most people think. Years ago we were taught that running slowly would make us faster and I admit that I harped on this when I first started running. What I've learned over the years is that LSD or "running slowly" is relative to each person. Having started running at the back of the pack, it took me time to improve, but it forced me to use more brain power than aerobic power. In college, I was walk-on for the cross country team because they needed a seventh man. Most of my teammates ran a 5:15- to 5:35-mile pace for a 10k. I started out at seven-minute mile pace and one of my goals was to break 40:00 someday -- a blazing 6:25 pace, which is considered slow in the world of cross country running. I had a lot of work to do to reach my goal. I didn't start out with a heart rate monitor, knowing my max heart rate, VO2max or anything else. I knew that my five-mile time was 34:50, which put me at a seven-minute mile pace. From there I worked backwards and decided to run about one or two minutes slower per mile for my training, or an eight- or nine-minute mile pace. I typically ran 10 miles in 85 to 90 minutes, and for shorter runs I ran three miles in about 25 minutes. Frequency and repeatability My running wasn't blazing fast; it was just simply 'running.' I ran hard enough to stress my system, and easy enough that I could repeat it day after day for weeks. Frequency and repeatability were the keys to my improvement. Frequency is something we tend to dismiss as multi-sport athletes. Some of us 'get through' our weaker sports and maintain our fitness while spending the majority of our time on our strengths. If you want to become a better swimmer, and you don't come from a swim background, you need to swim more than three times a week. Simply, the more you do an exercise, the easier it becomes. Running and cycling more frequently will also benefit you. Spending more time on your feet or in the saddle and teaching yourself that four runs or rides a week is an easy week pays dividends in the long haul. The key to being able to train frequently is having what we call 'repeatability.' Repeatability is the notion that no matter how hard you go today, you can repeat the workout tomorrow. It's stressing your system enough to get an aerobic benefit, but not so easy that you didn't tax yourself a bit. Training effort If you want to find your aerobic heart rate (HR) for your LSD runs or rides, ride or run at the same heart rate for five or six days in a row. If can you recover from day to day and you aren't losing pace and you're not burned out, chances are you're pretty close to running at the right aerobic effort. Training at an effort that allows you to stay injury free and train consistently will lead to better performance. Keep in mind that eventually you'll want to run at the top of your aerobic zone, but until you can run at your current pace consistently, keep the HR well below the top of your aerobic zone. For a more technical way to gauge how hard you should train, take 20 to 25 beats off your lactate threshold (LT) and start from there. For example, I run at a HR of 140-144 and my LT is 163. To challenge myself, I'd throw in a 20-minute pick up (or two) in my longer run where I sustain a HR closer to 148-150; it's still aerobic and allows me to train again the next day. I use the same philosophy with my cycling and swimming. I allow myself to go hard one day a week in the pool and that's usually the day before a recovery day. Most of the time however, I try to maintain good form and keep my HR steady and think about being able to repeat the workout again the next day. Don't get me wrong; when it's time to go fast I go fast. 'Easy' is relative The misconception of LSD is that it's easy. Yes, my long runs are at an easy pace and I can hold a conversation while I'm running. But holding the correct aerobic effort four to six days a week, month after month, isn't easy. Eventually you'll see that your pace for the same effort or HR will be faster. It's when you go out there and plod along or run too hard that you won't see as much improvement. Remember, doing it frequently and being able to repeat the workout day after day are the keys. 'Easy' is relative to each of us. When I improved my running to a 5:40 pace, my easy runs became 7:00 pace, which was my race pace not too long before that. Still, I was training about 1:20 per mile slower than I was racing. That 7:00 pace was what I could maintain day after day. And when I couldn't? I would back off to a 7:30 or 8:00 pace. You need to find your own 'easy' repeatable pace. Frequency and repeatability are the two words I want you to think about when you train in the next few weeks. Continually ask yourself during the workout: Can I repeat this same workout tomorrow? If the answer is no, then back off immediately. Being able to consistently train week after week, month after month, and year after year will bring about the best chances for your continued improvement in triathlon. Taking a quote from father of distance running; the late Arthur Lydiard: "There is no easy way". |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() holt1997 - 2008-02-20 9:57 AM If I may be a topic hog...how important is weight training? I thought it was but finding time has been difficult and I just want to make sure I am not missing out on something key. The answer to that question depends on who you ask. Its a topic of very intense discussion on the boards here and in the greater tri community. Some of the pros: 1) Strong muscles are healthy muscles. 2) It can correct strength imbalances, something that can cause injury in repetitive stress sports like tris. 3) core strength plays a part in all 3 disciplines 4) muscle mass improve metabolism Some of the cons: 1) strength work improves fast twitch muscle fibers. Most tri stuff requires slow twitch muscles. 2) the increased mass and bulk slows you down. 3) studies have not shown that strength work in already fit athletes improves tri performance. Here's a link to just 1 of many, many articles on the subject PARTICIPANTS: Ten male triathletes who had been endurance cycle training for a minimum of 12 months prior to the commencement of the study. MEASURES: Subjects completed a maximal incremental cycle test as well as a series of muscular function tests including a 6-s cycle test, a concentric isoinertial squat jump as well as an isokinetic leg extension test performed at velocities of 60 degrees (s-1, 120 degrees (s-1 and 180 degrees.s-1. In addition, each subject also participated in a triathlon race of distance 1.5 km swim, 40 km cycle and 10 km run.
Conclusions:
Here's a link to one of the discussions here on BT. http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/di...sts=31&start=1
Bottom line on strength training: If you want to, go ahead. It doesnt hurt. It might reduce your injury risk. But don't expect it to materially improve your tri performance. You're working different body systems than tris require. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() WOW that is a lot of good information! I will try to slow my pace down a bit and focus less on having a intense workout with a improving time and more on distance and not being sore. I have never trained for much besides wrestling which was a lot different than this. Thanks for your help. I already ran today but I will try it starting tomorrow. (I also am working hard on recovering by drinking my chocolate milk ![]() Scott |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Scott and Dave, I don't want to mislead you. Learning pacing was one of the hardest things for me to do. I know how tempting it is to go hard and go fast. It feels good! Its fun! You feel like you're really working hard and getting great benefit. "No Pain, No Gain", right??? Those are the lessons we learned growing up. And its damn hard to undo those mental lessons. But going hard or medium hard all the time WILL lead to injury and burnout. Sooner or later. Its been probably the toughest lesson for me to learn. I've paid a rather high price for making that mistake.
Coming in to being a mentor, this is one of the critical things that I wanted to convey to my team. That, and just learning to take this as part of a lifestyle. Without proper pacing, and by that I mean most work done at easy paces, we will not last in this sport. Our bodies can't handle it otherwise over the long term. This is a critical, critical lesson to long term success. |
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Member ![]() ![]() | ![]() I keep a really slow pace, as can be seen in my log, but can't keep my heart rate down. Starting at a 10 minute pace, I'm at 145hr, and after 30 minutes I'm in to 160's. Even when I slow to a walk to reduce hr, as soon as I start back up, it shoots right back to 160. I'm not too freaked out about it because I know the hr will come around with more volume, but it's pretty hard to keep it "steady" |
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Regular![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Alex, The heartrate should come down with time. My husband and I are not new to exercise, but we are new to running (we slog more than run). ![]() |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Should I take a day or two to recover or should I just start the new pace and go from there? Scott |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() holt1997 - 2008-02-20 11:02 PM Should I take a day or two to recover or should I just start the new pace and go from there? Scott I'd suggest listening to your body. If you're particularly sore, go especially easy. If you're feeling not bad, then head into your new pace and go from there. As for an estimated new pace, take your 5K or 10K race pace and add 2 minute/mile. Thats a decent guess at an Epace for you. Probably 85% of your running should be at that level. The remaining can be faster intensities. Again, Daniels will have far, far more details. Scott, I know I've come down rather hard on you today. But I figured you could handle it. You and others can obviously do what you want. This information is something that I've come to really appreciate over the last 3 years in this sport. The only real difference between me and you is that I'm a couple of years or so further down the road. My hope is that I can speed up all of your learning. Give you guys some of the benefit of my reading and experience over the last 3 years. |
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Extreme Veteran ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Ridgelake - 2008-02-20 8:53 PM holt1997 - 2008-02-20 11:02 PM Should I take a day or two to recover or should I just start the new pace and go from there? Scott Don't worry about being hard on me. I didn't think you were at all. I really appreciate your help and fully intend on doing my best to follow your advice. It'll be a hard switch for me though since I have always been taught that it is 110% or go home and don't bother. But I also want to be in triathlons for the long haul not just 1 or 2 and burnout. Thanks again for your help and I will let you know how it goes. I do think I will take today off for recovery and start back on the bike tomorrow. (I am still kinda sore ![]() |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() This nutrition article this month has some really, really good stuff in it. Here s link. http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/cms/article-detail.asp?articleid=1424&vote=5 It does require a paid BT subscription to read it. |
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Master ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() So how is everyone's week going? |
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