Not phat? Phatknot SLAYER - CLOSED (Page 13)

Recovery and Technique #8 spin this morning
Off to pool at lunch if work allows.


Love the photos. Looks like the dogs lead you around.

Morning all and Happy Monday!  I usually hate Monday's but I'm so happy to be out of my house that I have a new attitude!

Phat or anyone - can we find a topic to discuss?  Anything works - I'll throw one out there - how about swimming?  Anyone that used to suck at it and is now good?  I am so frustrated at how bad I am.  And I don't just measure that by time.  I measure it by the fact that I feel like I am going nowhere and have no power and strength.  I have been swimming for 3 years and I am actually slower than I used to be.  Some of it is not swimming much lately and some I think is from the fact that I had shoulder surgery a year ago and never got back my complete range of motion and can't straighten my arm under water.  I know there must be a way for me to compensate for it - just need to figure it out.  I am going to have a private lesson with our master's coach tomorrow but I feel like no matter how much anyone points out what I do wrong I can't seem to feel it and fix it.

So let's talk about swimming and what you all do to improve.

Workouts for the week:
Monday - masters swim
Tuesday - bike
Wednesday - masters swim and run
Thursday - bike
Friday - masters swim and run
Saturday - 2:10 min bike
Sunday - 1:15 run on an out and back course negative split the return

I like the way you've formatted your workouts.... (with the strike through for workouts completed...)
I'm stealing that one!  

ah the swim...

GREAT TOPIC LisaB> I am afraid I am probably the worst one to give you great advice on the swim. In fact,, whatever aspirations I have to be a coach are foiled by how poor I am with the swim leg. I learned to swim at age 38 and that started with 2 weeks of lessons every day. I am a high volume but low intensity swimmer. I resist most intervals that Shanks puts up there for me and he lets me slide a bit because my other legs are strong.

Having said all of that, my training buddy, tri-ghost, started around the same age as me and is a much faster swimmer than me. I probably swim 25% more yards than him in the time we have been swimming. I learned some valuable lessons from him. 

From observing the way he approaches swimming, its much more focused on technique. He has spent alot of time doing drills that I avoid to get my volume in. He studies his stroke and takes notes on how different things he alters affect his times in the pool. So in essence I think the best way to get better swimming is individual lessons on a semi consistent basis. Masters class is great for improving as well, but you don't get as much individual feedback so of the two I prefer the former (or both if you have the time/$).

I think swimming reveals my weakness which is that I am a grunt. I am not a thinking person's triathlete. In order to develop pace as a swimmer you need to be a thinker, not just a doer. You need to study the swim stroke and have others like that swim coach you put me in touch with, Heidi?, review what you are doing and offer input. When I work with private coaches my times drop really fast compared to when I just log lots of junk yards.

Sadly, I just don't have that good concentration. And that means I have to work so hard in the  other two to make up ground. I can only blame myself though.

Edit to add: That race looks cool nicruns. and check out this cool link on swim plans:
http://www.everymantri.com/everyman_triathlon/2011/01/a-beginners-guide-to-how-to-structure-your-own-swim-workout.html

Edited by phatknot 2011-01-17 11:15 AM

I only know free style and some wonky versions of the backstroke and breaststroke. I'm not a swim coach or a coach in general, but I never do anything but free. I suppose you could find some value in the other strokes if they help balance the musculature but I think the more specific your training is the better in terms of race day performance.

Ha swimming ... now there's a topic. Of all the disciplines that I can do it should be swimming, I really suck at running and am really slow but my cycling is OK, not good but OK. I've swam all my life so you'd think I'd be good and I thought I was until I went to one of the local tri club sessions and realised I'm in the 'slowest' lane and that my technique is bad. So I've gone from OK to rubbish and just seem to be getting worse. I had a chat with one of the coaches there and he's said that I should focus on the technique and then the speed so for now it's all about the stroke. Trouble is concentrating on that throws all my other bits out (leg kick, head alignment, breathing) so in my first three sessions I seem to have gone from bad to worse.

That said the coach mentioned that you can only go so far with bad technique and if you improve your technique you greatly improve your potential so that's what I'm banking on!

Kate
For what it is worth, I invariably feel awful and frustrated after swimming lessons. I think I totally suck, which I do, but the lessons just illuminated the sucky parts of the stroke. But if I incorporate the lessons, I seem to get faster very quickly. The hard part for me is to keep at it.

Tri-ghost seems to commit the newly learned info to practice/automaticity where I fall back on bad habits if I don't continue in lessons. Well done sticking with it through the frustrating parts.

Like Phat I'm not the best one to talk about swimming but I can tell you where I'm at. I grew up around water and was always a strong swimmer. I thought I was strong until my first triathlon where I realized I needed to drop my time if I wanted to be competitive. Last off season I hired a swim coach who was great. She got my swim times way down using drill techniques, a lot of sprint intervals and kicking. The downside was I was so beaten up from my swim sessions I struggled with running and cycling work-outs. I realized that the few minutes or seconds I saved on the swim, I would give up in minutes on the bike/run. I now swim just fast enough to make sure I am "still in the game" but come out of the water completely fresh. By the time I get out of T1 I am usually right with the faster swimmers. I do almost no kicking and focus on the pull. When I wear a wet suit or use a pull buoy I fly through the water.  This off season I am focusing on my bike and run. My swim plan is simple, 20 x 200 2-3 days a week. I focus on distance per stroke, form and consistency. In Nov. my IM swim was a piece of cake. I came out of the water in a dead run feeling perfectly fine. I passed about 50 people on the boardwalk huffing and puffing as they walked to the bike-rack.  I will restart a formal swim plan when I start my HIM build which is coming up soon.

As far as the shoulder injury, I don't think it should be an insurmountable issue. I know a 1:05/100 swimmer who has decreased range of motion but has modified his stroke to overcome this limitation. He has a phenomenal kick that helps.

I'm attaching a photo of me coming out of the water in a dead run at Cozumel. I also have a shot of me coming out of T2 that was taken shortly before I fell apart.





Attachments
----------------
Race 004.jpg (69KB - 4 downloads)

^^^^^^^^^^

I'm the big guy in blue, not the one wearing red and black walking

awesome photo!
GORGEOUS day for a race too!

this article covers some or most of the fundamentals.... i think...?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/may/17/triathlon-improve-open-water-swimming

Our masters class has us swim strokes other that freestyle.  Perhaps I should say "swim" as my coach actually mocked my butterfly attempts.  I have found that swimming other strokes help my rotation in the water.  But we definitely disagree on some things.  She wants me to breathe less often and kick more, but I know that in the races I did last year breathing as much as possible and not kicking much helped me come out of the water without being exhausted.  I would probably be a better/faster swimmer, but would that translate to a better/faster triathlete?  Luckily I am in the remedial lane as I call it, so I think she chalks my technique up to poor ability rather than dissention.

great article, suggestions and picture Peter. That reminds me: I passed something like 300-400 people at IMFL in T1 (probably out of sheer fitness)! Compare Peter to all the others walking into the transition. That shows you its volume and technique!

I come out in the back of the pack at every race but rarely ever don't podium at any distance in clydes and I'm pretty close to the top of AG. So I'm not huge about swimming but I think its important to keep working at it. However, I need to be smarter or at least more systematic about how I work at it.

Got a 32.89 mile ride in along Folsom Lake and the American River.  It was cold and drizzly but I HedTFU and got it done.  Sang some Johnny Cash as I passed Folsom Prison.  Reveled in the misery and enjoyed myself.

Edited by nerdjock 2011-01-17 4:54 PM






Attachments
----------------
photo-4_jan17.jpg (68KB - 8 downloads)

Yes!  That is definitely true.  They're much better runners than I am.

About swimming: I am bad.  I swim in the slow lane at masters but I am improving.  My plan is to take a few private lessons, since I'm sure my stroke needs work.  I have nightmares about the Ironman swim.  As far as other strokes goes, I swim all of them, though my butterfly is really, really ugly.  The coach made fun of me, too.  And one of the lifeguards asked if she should rescue me :/ In general, while I know they make me a better swimmer, I don't feel they contribute to my short-term goal, which is building the endurance to swim 2.4 miles and feel all right afterward.  In fact, I quit my old masters team because the coach was huge into doing tons of butterfly and one-armed butterfly and it just didn't help my goals. Flailing does not equal a productive swim day.

Edited by nerdjock 2011-01-17 4:53 PM

thats a gorgeous photo. i wish i could ride out that way. its been all dungeon anymore. i am really getting sick of the cold and wet. if i wanted cold and wet i wouldve stayed in philly and not moved to georgia!


have you ever read a story about the slayer?
http://mikebuteau.wordpress.com/2010/07/21/hangin-with-the-slayer/





Attachments
----------------
organdonor.jpg (63KB - 11 downloads)

That is a fantastic story!  I wanna be badass like that someday

And, good work with the organ donation advocacy! 

Love the photos. I'm planning on a 3 hour outside ride on Sunday if the weather cooperates. Otherwise it's the trainer. I did a lot of outside rides last year around this time of year but I don't think I had near as much improvement as I am getting from the trainer rides. On the other hand I may be going crazy from riding inside.

Love the story about "Riding With The Slayer". I almost fell into your trap last year when you were setting up a 2 loop ride on the Augusta course. You bailed that weekend . I had hoped to ride the second loop with your group thinking I might be able to keep up. Instead I rode the course with a group from Charleston who were complaining about all of the hills on the course.

Thanks. After that ride, I found out he was a sport journalist with Bloomberg. Just met him that day after a bit of back and forth on the BT Ga forum.

You are a badazz nerdjock. IMCDA is yours. Apart from the mass start, the swim will be the easiest part ...

Yeah Peter. I recall bailing for some reason but I can't remember why.

I am a a really nice guy until someone passes me on the bike. Then the beast is unleashed! There will be other times for us to ride and for you to pass me I hope...

Polluted water and no swim. I swam anyway. I figured it was no worse than a few of the lakes I have been in. I still plan to do Augusta at some point.

You know i didnt really highlight your trainer vs roads statement but it is very true. you are pedaling the whole time on the trainer and you slack off alot on the roads. your environment is boring but its very controlled. it makes for a great experiment laboratory with an n=1. you also read all about the pros using computrainers so it is very good for your improvement if you can tolerate it. i saw massive improvement over a year's time doing loads of trainer rides of varying intensities.