Peter Sagan....it was just a pinch (Page 13)

And men who speak up are still a very small minority of men willing to challenge the "bro code". There are all sorts of societal rules for what it means to be a man ... many of which perpetuate a very narrow definition. And the costs for stepping outside of those rules are costly. Go back and read how quickly I was defined as over-the-top for suggesting 2 things: 1. shameful 2. ridiculous that we still have podium girls. The discussion didn't move into a dialogue of "tell me more why you think that". It degenerated to "you're over-the-top, we're not going to listen, and you're alienating your audience". It's okay ... I've done this sort of work for a while. It's a very normal reaction. I'm going to stick around anyway and keep suggesting that there are bigger denials involved that benefit men and hinder women. And the unacknowledged cost to men is significant.

The conversation VERY quickly spiraled to justification of the status quo. There was even minimization of Sagan's act (at least he didn't hit her) that has since been collectively defined as anywhere from inappropriate to criminal. To suggest that how we view women as eye-candy having any connection to why Sagan felt it okay to grab some was ridiculed as rhetoric.

The conversation gets shut down. Men get chastised for violating the code and women get viewed as uppity (that's being kind). Assumptions get made that she must be okay with it if she didn't say anything. 

Then, when it got clearly defined as other than "we're okay with it", comments still suggest disbelief.

If I'm stepping on your toe and you ask me to get off, it would be ridiculous for me to say "no, I'm not" or "yeah, but it really doesn't hurt that much". Rather, you get to define the impact of my actions. And that impact is very real for you despite the fact that I didn't mean to step on your toe. Something I've done has caused you harm. You get to define the harm and it now becomes my obligation to do something. To move.

You're being told that the climate, for women, IS hard, hurtful, insulting, demeaning, etc. Regardless of whether or not you want to believe those emotions are valid, it's time for you to acknowledge the impact and to move. 

Oversimplification.  When you clarified your initial overreaction in a rational manner, you made much more sense.  I might have disagreed with some of it (getting rid of podium girls), but I was at least able to understand what you were saying.

It's sort of like the initial reaction of some posters that this was clearly criminal based on the picture.  Of course that isn't the case, but I was told it was wrong that I didn't call it criminal.

I don't think this was the point being made. The point was more there is a difference between hitting her and pinching her butt, and that the reaction to those things should be different as well.

And what's the fun in that.

You think so?  It is just not a straight forward correlation. Would you rather I hit you or demeaned you in front of 10s of thousands of people? 

Chooses wisely, I hit rather hard. 

you can disagree with my point, but it wasn't meant as "she shouldn't complain, at least he didn't hit her"  And i'll take the punch, girls can be really mean! I'm not sure if I could handle that.

No it was meant to say that hitting her would have been worse. I am saying that one type of humiliation is not always worse than the other. Just because one does not leave a visible bruise does not mean it is any less damaging. It may be more so in that had he hit her, most of you would have been outraged but since he only demeaned her it's cool.

Not me, I'm not mean. I'm a sweetheart just ask anybody.

Because in most cases, the discrimination isn't as blatantly obvious as grabbing someone's rear.  I work as an engineer, with virtually all men.  I was surrounded by almost all men in school, too.  As a woman (even a strong, independent one), most of the time it is easier to turn to opposite cheek to avoid confrontation from not just the offender, but from everyone else as well.  Pick your battles and all that.  Yes, if someone were to grab my rear at work (or even make a blatantly inappropriate comment in a meeting or something) then you'd better believe that I'd read them the riot act in every way possible.  But it's never as obvious as that because those lines that should not be crossed are pretty clear to everyone.  The lines that do get crossed are usually harder to distinguish.

I think that more women didn't speak up in this thread for the very same reason.  Pick your battles.  By the time I saw this thread, it was already like 9 pages long with plenty of indication that my opinion would not have been popular.  It wasn't worth stirring the pot.

I know what you are saying (or trying to say).  There is a different severity of things.  If there wasn't, we would hand out the death penalty for jay walking...

But there are two problems I see with what you are writing:

First is how you say it.  You have to realize is sound dismissive when you say "it could be worse".

• "I have pneumonia" - could be worse, you could have cancer
• "Some guy chopped my arm off" - could be worse, he could have killed you
• "The drunk diver killed the father" - could be worse, he could have killed the whole family

Those are all true statements, but you have to realize just by saying them, they sound dismissive/trivialize the actual event by comparing it to something that didn't happen.  I think that's how people tend to take statements like that.

The OTHER problem is the underestimation that a punch is worse than a pinch.  Physically, yes, perhaps.

But you know what that pinch really is?  It's someone who thinks because it's simply a cheap thrill for them, they are going violate someone's space and body.  They know this person probably doesn't like/want them doing this to her, but I they don't CARE what she likes or wants.  That's more the violation.  That someone knows it's unwanted and they think so little of them or their feelings they are willing to do it anyway simply for a cheep feel.  Is that how we should treat people?  Dismiss their feelings and violate their body/space simply because it would be fun for you?

Sagan KNEW he was wrong.  Why would he apologize if he didn't?  So he is basically saying, "I know this is wrong.  I'm going to touch someone in a manner they don't want, it's not acceptable, but I don't care about her or her feelings about it or how this could impact her all because it "would be cool/fun/funny" for me.  Again, is that how we should treat people?

Hold the phone here people...

Do we really believe Kido's wife lets him pinch her butt???

I think you're reading into what i said with the "it could have been worse" stuff. I was saying, we are villifying him as though he did something worse, not that she should be lucky it wasn't worse.

We all agree it was wrong, as you said, Sagan even knew it was wrong. and no we shouldn't treat other people that way. The big argument was to the degree of wrongness. When people started mentioning jail, and then bringing up rape, that was when it seemed a bit over the top in terms of reaction. This isn't a trivialization of the situation, its putting the situation in perspective. His punishment should be something along the lines of maybe some kind of counseling, or mentoring to help him understand how this behavior is not appropriate, or maybe a team fine (sports teams love fines).  And again, we should look at his intentions. He was doing something to make a funny joke. In the moment he probably didn't even realize that he could be upsetting the model, because as a 23 year old man it likely wouldnt have upset him in the least.

You're missing out on the best thing about internet forums.

Exactly this.

I can only speak anecdotally, but in the same story I was speaking of earlier, my wife COULD stop the show midstream to get security over to handle the guy.

But how many times can that happen before the guy she does backup singing/dancing for get's upset for his show getting interrupted and his paying fans 86'ed and the show interrupted/disturbed for everyone else? It's not right, but what are the chances that suddenly the show is "looking to go in another direction" with regards to her?  People have gotten kicked out of the show for less.

Fine, do it discretely after the show.  Think they are going to find some random guy as 100's of people are shuffling out a dark venue?  Have security walk the isles during the show to prevent it?  That ain't going to happen.

Could she quit?  Yeah, she has that option.  But why quit a job she loves to do, pays well, entertains, and she is good at because someone thinks they can play grab-arse.

Plus the embarrassment of having to put out in front of everyone you had your butt grabbed?  Most people don't like scenes, and probably even less so when it's regarding your body.  I cringe at hearing rape testimony.  That they have to give blow by blow details of what was done to them and relive it.  Sometimes people want to forget traumatic things.  It's their coping technique.  Even if speaking out/fighting is better for everyone in the long run, I can't blame people for trying to deal with it the best way they can, even if it's trying to forget about it.

So yeah, there are battles to pick, and there are times you feel embarrassed, helpless.  Many times it's easier to walk away unhappy - even at the cost of giving the impression that it might be ok - than to fight it.  Problem is we have to "fight" for not being violated in the first place.

Shoot, part of the reason I don't GO to her shows anymore is just that.  It barely happens, but when it DOES?  I have to sit there and watch my wife's but get grabbed and can't do anything about it for fear of getting HER in trouble.

With her, you also get the added factor that these people paid to get entertained.  The singer, band, dancers, etc are there for the paying customer.  For some reason, after a couple beers, some think that includes the random grope as they walk by.  She is a professionally trained singer and dancer and likes to entertain in a show that people pay 100 bucks a pop to see.  That is what she is there to do - not get groped.  She is not a stripper and that's not part of the admission price.

Man, I get long winded.  Slow week.  Sorry.

Perhaps, but I like to win my arguments and we all know that you can't win arguments on an internet forum. 

Three points that come to my mind.

I think at 23, you KNOW.  Even younger.  You know that even in grade school, if you pinch a girls butt, they could turn around and clock you.  It may even be part of the fun.  You think that any guy who walks into a bar doesn't know there is a chance they could get slapped for doing that?  But they don't care.  That's the problem.  They/he thinks so little of her that he is willing to make her unhappy/uncomfortable/embarrassed because it would be "fun" for him.

If it wouldn't upset him in the least to do that (or any guy) - that's a BIG problem.  Having fun at the violation of someone else (which is far from "fun" for them) and having that not upset them in the least?

I also think that guys don't get into primal mode when they see a butt.  It's not like all rational thought leaves them and it's "see butt, must touch".  They know it's wrong.  When I see it happen, the guy typically looks at his friends like "look what I just got away with!".  Not considering that the girl may take that home and be upset.  Oh, who cares if she might be offended and upset.  It sure was a great 0.1 second for me!

I'm curious.  If you have a wife/daughter/girlfriend.  Would you dismiss it if some random guy grabbed her?  Forget about it in 5 minutes?  Typically, no.  That's what guys get in to fights about.  Disrespecting their girls.  It upsets them to the point of violence at some point.  So I wonder, if the GUY get's that upset about her getting disrespected and IT DIDN'T EVEN HAPPEN TO HIM, he was just an observer.  How do you think SHE feels?  It actually happened to her.  Think it's not a big deal?

Wait . . . what?

That being said, I've never met Beyonce.

It was pointed out several times had this happened in a regular workplace he would have been FIRED. Would you have done this in your workplace? I am willing to bet the answer is a resounding NO. Why should Sagan be held to a different standard? Why should women like this model and Kido's wife be any less protected under the law or worse by public opinion? When men allow this to happen with nothing more than a boys will be boys excuse they perpetuate the behavior. I remember when DUI was treated with the same sort of nonchalance. That has changed over time only in part due to stricter laws; a large part of the change in attitude is due to society as a whole going from "meh it's not that bad" to "this is Unacceptable!".

Apparently not enough.  I have had complaints in the comment box.  They were anonymous, but I think I can recognize the handwriting.

Plus I'm pretty sure my dogs don't like pinches.

We all know you are the exception that proves the rule goosey. You know we really need a cheeky font to go along with the sarc font.

I tried to find and image of someone mezmorized and touching something but failed.  Ala Neo in the Matrix with the mirror or touching the orb in Event Horizon.  As in, is this "REAL"?  If I can relay the imagery.

Thats not what I said, I said that HE. As in Sagan. Would not have been upset if the model pinched his butt, or even if Fabian did (someone make that a meme please).  When people try to empathize, they often put themselves in the other person's shoes.

and of course I'd be mad, she should be mad too. I agree. I've also seen people get into fights after being bumped into at the bar. I've seen people get madder when someone cuts them off while driving. that doesn't validate your point.

At the same time, I think different workplaces have a different expectation for conduct. Not that this is right or wrong, but I would expect someone who works in an office building to conduct themselves in a different manner than someone who works on a construction site, or someone who works in a bar, or on a race track. You can argue that there is a double standard there, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation.