Slornow and Wannabefaster's Summer Group-CLOSED (Page 13)

Rene, Blanda and Jamie-nice work. Sounds like the group had a good weekend.

HARDWARE _-- CA CHING!

Congratulations on a great race. Us older dudes need to stick together.  That said, since we're in the same age group, I'll defer to racing the same race with you for now.. LOL.  Wouldn't want to get totally creamed by you!  haha

Congrats on a great race, Mike.

Ok Team, need some advice please!

As I've mentioned before, I'm very much in the rebuilding mode.  Pace hanging around 11:00 on the run.   I know that will improve as my weight comes down and my endurance goes up.

What's driving me crazy right now, is that the smallest amount of hill is just taking it out of me.   I drain the tank on them easily.   I'm trying to work to HR and keep in Z4, and most of time I do.   Today though, I thought I'd never get up a hill I've usually been relatively strong on.   How can I get past rubber legs on hills.   I've never done really well on them - even when I was consistently running at an 8-8:30 pace.

Suggestions?   My  current run workouts are at 5k distance.

Thanks in advance.

Hills can really make the HR shoot up. Curious how you calculated your HR zones. If you are doing most in Z4, assuming you are using zones 1-5, that is likely too hard for most runs. Conventional wisdom seems to be to keep most runs easy in Z2 until you have a really good base and then incorporate some intensity later on.  If you need to walk the hills to keep the HR steady then thats OK. You will build up your aerobic capacity and then be able to adjust run pace on the hill to keep HR more manageable. You may want to read some about the "Maffetone "Method". He basically advocates doing all running in Z1-2. Eventually your paces will increase while maintainint the same HR as fitness builds. I think it is a little extreme but many people have had good success with it. I know that Mark Allen, triathlon legend, advocates a similar process in his coaching.

Another option is to use a recent race or test effort to get your current "VDOT". Once you have that the other paces for different workouts are laid out and can be used as an option if HR seems to be an issue.

http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm

http://www.runsmartproject.com/calculator/

OK gang. Race report from Saturday is done!

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=517458&posts=1&page=1

Good Feedback.  Z2 as I currently have it set is basically crawling.   I'm doing most of my training runs trying to hold HR at 165.   That's worked well for me in the past.  Zone 5 is where I start to feel myself going anerobic.   Basically, at 160-165 - I'm able to do the talk test ok, so I've got that set as Z4.   Maybe that's still too fast, don't know.   All I know is I've pulled my pace down 30 seconds/mile in the last 6 weeks, and generally feel pretty good.  On flat, I'm feeling great, but I'm burning myself up when climbing hills.   I know I need to get leg strength up, because I feel really wimpy in the legs.  Quads just scream at me when I try to run up a hill.

Take a look at my training log if you like, maybe you can make some suggestions based on that.  I have all my runs, and most with HR in them  I'd really appreciate some assistance.   Maybe I've just got my zones screwed up.

Thanks again!

Agreeing with Randy on the HR zones.  If you're consistently running at Z4, either your zones are wrong or you're training too hard.

.I personally couldn't care less what my HR is in training.  I wear an HR monitor but only use it to make sure I don't stray WAY out of whack with what I'm supposed to be doing.   I'm a Daniels VDOT disciple, so I train by pace.  85% of my weekly mileage is running very slow; I'm talking over 2 min slower per mile than my 10K race pace.  The other 15% is usually a couple of miles at tempo pace (more or less 10K race pace) and a little sprinkling of faster stuff. 

Coming back from injury and with your HR jumping on those hills, I would keep at the slow stuff for now.  If you're really struggling with hills, maybe add in some hill work.

Brett-coincidentally there was a short article in the new issue of Bicycling that came today. It recommended setting Max HR by using a formula of 211 minus 64% of your age. So, for me that would result in a max of 178. Probably much more accurate than the notoriously inaccurate 220--age. There are other formulas that take into account resting HR etc. Here is a link to one of those formulas.    http://www.topendsports.com/fitness/karvonen-formula.htm

Another reason to consider using paces like Daniels or VDOT rather than HR is the fact that you live/train in hot humid conditions which can really cause your HR to be high. I will wear a HR monitor during the cool months while running but ditch it in the Summer and concentrate more on pace during the hot months. Bottom line is to keep your easy runs easy. It can be hard but try not to PR training runs or "beat" your recent training result. Bake the cake....then ice it. Translation is to build the base then add the intensity. Hope that helps. 

I would definitely try to get some calories in 1.5-2 hours before my wave started. Something easy on the stomach that you are comfortable with. I will drink Ensure before most races as it has both carbs and protein. Nothing new on raceday so don't try anything too radical. Do you have a "go to" snack food. For me it is peanut butter crackers....pretty bland but I've eaten so many over the years that my stomach never acts up with them.

I would also be careful about drinking TOO MUCH in fluids/water the day of the race. Hydrate well in the days leading up to the race. If it is a cool day you risk over doing it with the fluids while waiting for the race to start. You will have access to fluid/nutrition on the bike and run so you really only need to make it through the swim before you can start replinishing.  You want to be hydrated but you don't want to spend a bunch of time peeing during the race.   

Have you thought about using RPE on hills?  As someone coming back from 3 months off of running, I feel your pain.  On hills I try to maintain the same perceived exertion on the hills that I do on the flats which means that the pace goes WAY down.  I believe that HR is naturally going to rise a bit no matter what you do at this stage of your training, but as long as you are breathing roughly the same all is good to me.

Thanks all for the very good advice.   I'm going to look into that Daniels number.  My HR has always tended to run a bit higher than the "averages' say.   I do try to use the RPE suggested.   And if I look back on my run this morning, I did maintain an average of about 159, so maybe I'm not as out of whack as I think I am.  That said, I'm going to do some looking into these alternate HR max suggestions, and see where they fit.

My pace actually has been coming down, just not as fast as I'd like, and I know I've had a lot of runs where I've spent too much time redlining it.  I'm going to work on that.   

Thanks again for good advice, greatly appreciated.

All:

Thanks again for the good advice.   I worked hard to apply it for this morning's run.  I definitely have the rubber legs though.   Even though I only rode 10 miles last night, I pushed way harder than I should have last night, and I'm feeling it this morning.   But, I know the only way to get stronger is to work those legs, so after some debate with the pillow this morning, I got up and headed out.   Thinking a lot about the advice of the group, I paced myself so that my HR stayed around 160.  That part felt good.   However, the legs just were rubber.  Not stiff, just saying -- what are you doing to me!!!

II think I'll rest them the remainder of today, and then swim tomorrow night.  Probably need a bit of recovery.   Interesting, my pace was not that much slower in the beginning mile at the slower HR than it has been.  Just the legs didn't want to cooperate.

Thanks again, all for the advice.  Still much I need to apply, and re-educate myself.

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