Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED (Page 146)

2011-08-05 4:51 PM

in reply to: #3256772

Elite

3067

Cheesehead, WI

Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

LOL..thanks George

It was supposed to be an olympic...but then I backed it down to a sprint....

I've done it several times before.

It really is supposed to rain (40 percent chance of t-storms at this point)...maybe if I get a good nights sleep tonight I'll be more energized. Just feelin' 'meh'.

gdsemiller

2011-08-05 4:57 PM

in reply to: #3256772

Extreme Veteran

371

Mobile

Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

Jeff - Good luck on the 5K and the long ride back. I'm suprised you are not going to ride 50 miles to the race and 50 miles home and then go swim 3000yds in the sauna pool

Sarah - Good luck on the race this weekend, I hope you get plenty of rest and the weather holds out for you.

2011-08-05 4:58 PM

in reply to: #3631325

Master

2236

Denison Texas

Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

gdsemiller - 2011-08-05 4:57 PM

Jeff - Good luck on the 5K and the long ride back. I'm suprised you are not going to ride 50 miles to the race and 50 miles home and then go swim 3000yds in the sauna pool

Recovery week

2011-08-05 6:23 PM

in reply to: #3629638

Champion

10618

Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

SARAH -

You kind of remind me of some of the more "creative" students I listened to over the years, trying to explain the absence of homework!

A sprint is good! Nothing at all wrong with a sprint! You have to do what feels right to you at the time, and just make the most of it and have fun with it and try to learn something from it. And that's the truth!

I have had feet sliced by zebra mussels, and even sliced a finger pulling too deeply in water that was too shallow. (Of course, if I had a more efficient catch and pull, that wouldn't've happened.....) And one of my favorite races is Musselman, both the sprint and the half-iron, and that of course is named for the zebra mussels that have taken over the Finger Lakes (and far beyond). They sure do filter the water well, but there's a cost to that.

Go to www.musselmantri.com, and poke around a bit, and see the different depictions of the mussels that appear. The t-shirts are usually a hoot, with mussels running, and cycling, and swimming freestyle. Musseldudes rule!

2011-08-05 6:32 PM

in reply to: #3631394

Champion

10618

Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

GEORGE -

ALEX is racing, i think, doing SheRocks (SheRox?) near Philadelphia. I thibnk she is doing thsi with a friend, and I hope she bops back here soon to confirm it ---- and then appear not long after with a race report!

As fopr me.....maybe. It'll be a race-day decision, and that being the case it will be tomorrow morning. The race is a sprint, about 4.5 hours away, with a 2 p.m. start. last year it took me 1:20:46 to complete, so it'll take about 8X longer to drive there and back than to actual do the race. Dumb, maybe? Maybe.

Last year I did the "Double" --- olympic at 8 a.m., then a coupole hours of rest, then the sprint at 2. That was fun, but for this year I will keep it simple abd inexpensive; that is, no accoms and no evening meal. I have camped nearby in other years of this race, so it's fairly inexpensive, but even at that it just makes more sense (any sense at ALL????) to drive down, race, and then return. But I haven't committed yet, so as I said, I'll decide when I wake up. It's the Fronhofer Tool Triathlon, run by a guy (Kevin Crossman) with whom I did USAT coaching training in '06, and I like doing it in part to support him. But it's also a very nice, laid-back event.

2011-08-05 6:42 PM

in reply to: #3631148

Champion

10618

Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

GEORGE again -

FWIW.......

As I train for the possible sprint tomorrow and West Point next weekend, I am keeping my rides close to the race distances I will be doing -- 24km tomorrow , 26km at WP. I am doing them fast, mostly at race pace or slightly below if they are part of a brick.

Soooo, as you look at a sprint next weekend, you might be better off dialing back the 40-mile by about half, and work on intensity. Just a thought!

I have to admit that I am strying abit with runs and swims, especially the latter, as most are on an out-and-back route that is about 1600-1700m. Both races coming up will be 750m (or is it yards?), so I am quite a ways overdistance, but i am working on speed for the entire distance. Does that justify it? Maybe.

For runs, some stand-alones are 7-10km, but bricks are either 4km or 5km (just as in the races to come), and even some stand-alones are that length, too. (Well, actually, more like 6km minimum for the stand-alone runs.)

BUT! Great initiative on those proposed workouts, and I hope they go well for you. As I've said before, you're a bulldog with those longer rides (are you and Jeff Siamese twins, separated at birth??)!

2011-08-05 6:44 PM

in reply to: #3631154

Champion

10618

Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

JEFF -

Yeah, as I just said to George. At least you have the sense to drive to the 5km....I hope?? (I like to picture your wife driving you and bike there, and then leaving you to pedal home while she drives on ahead. Or not?)

Melon Run! I hope they serve their tiltle as post-race yummies!

2011-08-05 7:44 PM

in reply to: #3631412

Master

2236

Denison Texas

Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

stevebradley - 2011-08-05 6:44 PM JEFF - Yeah, as I just said to George. At least you have the sense to drive to the 5km....I hope?? (I like to picture your wife driving you and bike there, and then leaving you to pedal home while she drives on ahead. Or not?) Melon Run! I hope they serve their tiltle as post-race yummies!

Yes, the plan is to get a ride to town with my wife, and pedal back-she will probably go on to work. I think there will be watermelon available

2011-08-05 7:46 PM

in reply to: #3631394

Elite

3067

Cheesehead, WI

Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

hEY Steve - Musselman looks like a hoot! that UMussel mini mini looks hilarious.

And there advertising/logo of mussel critters works well.

Good luck in your race should you choose to do it. Unless you get creative and find ways to ditch it

2011-08-05 9:37 PM

in reply to: #3631467

Master

2236

Denison Texas

Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

Av8rTx - 2011-08-05 7:44 PM

Yes, the plan is to get a ride to town with my wife, and pedal back-she will probably go on to work. I think there will be watermelon available

Change of plans, wife not available for transport so I guess I take my old pickup

2011-08-06 3:52 AM

in reply to: #3631468

Champion

10618

Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

SARAH -

I don't know about "creative", but it's 4:46 and I've been awake for close to an hour mostly just thinking about what I should be doing today.

If I do the race, it's the long drive both ways for a short race. It would satisfy the part of me that hasn't raced in two months, and it would likely be a very good one for me in terms of USAT rankings points. It supports good people. It is quite inexpensive.....although the drive would be about $50-60 gas alone.

If I stay home, I get to feel righteous about not spending that money. I also get to feel remorseful for not doing it. Hmmm. I would probably do a Yoga class. i would do another couple training sessions. Most importantly, I would keep the appt with my sports doc for 8 a.m., which could be fairly important to me vis-a-vis my hip. Hmmm, again.

Never a decisive one.........I'm going back to bed and will think about it again when the alarm goes in about 73 minutes!

2011-08-06 3:54 AM

in reply to: #3631565

Champion

10618

Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

JEFF -

Probably a wiser plan anyhow, you old battlehorse! Worst-case scenario --- you arrive home, re-fuel, and THEN go for a 50-miler. Have a great Melon 5km!

2011-08-06 9:39 AM

in reply to: #3631665

Elite

3067

Cheesehead, WI

Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

stevebradley - 2011-08-06 3:52 AM SARAH - I don't know about "creative", but it's 4:46 and I've been awake for close to an hour mostly just thinking about what I should be doing today. If I do the race, it's the long drive both ways for a short race. It would satisfy the part of me that hasn't raced in two months, and it would likely be a very good one for me in terms of USAT rankings points. It supports good people. It is quite inexpensive.....although the drive would be about $50-60 gas alone. If I stay home, I get to feel righteous about not spending that money. I also get to feel remorseful for not doing it. Hmmm. I would probably do a Yoga class. i would do another couple training sessions. Most importantly, I would keep the appt with my sports doc for 8 a.m., which could be fairly important to me vis-a-vis my hip. Hmmm, again. Never a decisive one.........I'm going back to bed and will think about it again when the alarm goes in about 73 minutes!

Well?? Did you take care of your body at the docs? Or take care of your racing bug?

2011-08-06 11:05 AM

in reply to: #3256772

Master

2236

Denison Texas

Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

I set another PR but didn't break 24 minutes 24:15 put me 102 of 800 and 4th of 21 age group. I missed third by 2 seconds. About to write a race report.

I started out feeling kinda bad, like I couldn't hold my pace-turns out at mile 1 I was running a 7:13 pace! That explained how I felt so I dialed it back a bit, then again after mile 2, then kicked it back up at the 3 mile marker. It was a very large well attended race and all the usual fast runners were there. I feel good about finishing well in such a competitive race, wish I got inside the top 100 though. I wanted to get under 24, chances are starting a little too fast at the start cost me that-a 7:30-7:40 pace would have been more appropriate.

Race report: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp...

Edited by Av8rTx 2011-08-06 11:42 AM

2011-08-06 2:41 PM

in reply to: #3631836

Champion

10618

Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

JEFF -

Fabulous perfomance!! Top quarter overall, top 18% age group......and oh-so-close to that podium (and the top 100, too)! Didn't you just wish that running races also had ages on the backs of calves, so you could've seen who was just ahead of you and kicked it past him?

Ain't that something, to feel crappy until the first distance marker, and then see how quickly you made it there, and THEN realize that you were beyond reasonable limits. Oops! Uh-oh!

I have had at least my full share of those, and while in general i feel I am a good run pacer.......those episodes prove that I still have some tinkering to do with my out-of-the-gate efforts. Oh, my!

Really, really fine race, Jeff -- enjoy the laurels!!

2011-08-06 2:43 PM

in reply to: #3631974

Champion

10618

Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

SARAH -

Did the doc thing, and it was a good decision. He confirmed a few aspects of what my next injection should be, and that is very useful. Plus, it would've just been foolish to drive big distances two weekends straight for sprints.............right??

And how about you?

2011-08-06 2:47 PM

in reply to: #3256772

Master

2236

Denison Texas

Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

Yes it was exciting, thanks!

The age thing is tricky.I was sort of focused on 2 guys who turned out to be 2 age groups older than me..whoops

2011-08-06 3:17 PM

in reply to: #3256772

Master

2236

Denison Texas

Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

Somethings I noticed if you happen to take off with the lead group-even if just for a few minutes:

1. Not much pace booty to choose from and you really have to work to stay with it

2. Lots of people pass you. If you are acustomed to passing and working your way up through the pack-this is different

3. When the start signal goes off; they go. This seems obvious, but they go! They don't giggle and high five and stroll across the timing mat before easing into a jog-they go! They don't fumble with the "hydration system" they just got for their 5 kilometer adventure-they just go! Reminded me a bit of bike racing mass starts

4. The pack at the front before the gun can be kind of tight-reminded me again of criteriums, I felt a little odd anxiety .checking out the corners and curbs coming up so I can fight for a good line-this isn't necessary-it sorts itself out just fine-but you gotta just go!

5. If you look over your shoulder-there will be a whole bunch of folks coming and you had better just go!

6. Volunteers and spectators may or may not be saying encouraging things to you, hard to know cuz you gotta just go...

7. It is amazing how many things you will find to worry about in that 20 some odd minutes that didn't bother you before the start...."why does my back hurt?, Maybe I should have gone thru that porta potty line one more time, how come the numbers on my watch are out of focus? how did that pre teen girl get ahead of me? if I stop and puke will I run faster, can I still PR?, can I pretend to puke as an excuse to stop for a second?"- don't worry about it, just go..it will be over soon

2011-08-06 7:02 PM

in reply to: #3632010

Elite

3067

Cheesehead, WI

Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

Av8rTx - 2011-08-06 3:17 PM

Somethings I noticed if you happen to take off with the lead group-even if just for a few minutes:

1. Not much pace booty to choose from and you really have to work to stay with it

2. Lots of people pass you. If you are acustomed to passing and working your way up through the pack-this is different

5. If you look over your shoulder-there will be a whole bunch of folks coming and you had better just go!

6. Volunteers and spectators may or may not be saying encouraging things to you, hard to know cuz you gotta just go...

Love the insight Jeff.

I did an oly where after a while all the sprint participants were passing me...how depressing! Another time, I was in wave 22 out of 25 and loved 'passing' folks even if they were going 8 mph on the bike! LOL

Great race dude and I can totally relate to: 'can I pretend to puke as an excuse to stop for a second' -- I just may have to use that quote on my sign off / signature! haaaa

edit: to update

LQQK below - you are famous now. (Let me know if you'd prefer I don't quote that awesome piece of wisdom!)

Edited by BbMoozer 2011-08-06 7:15 PM

2011-08-07 12:41 PM

in reply to: #3256772

Master

2236

Denison Texas

Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

Quote away! Very flattering

I did a 2000 meter swim workout in the pool this morning. Another trip to the lake and 90 degree water didn't sound very fun to me. I think those hot Sunday swims have been affecting my ride and long run later that afternoon

This is what I did-probably the second time to ever squeeze out 2000m:

wu 2x200-4:24, 4:16
200 pb-3:53
MS 2x250-5:14, 5:07
6x50 DPS
2x200-4:06, 4:01
100-pb
CD 100 easy-1:50

I did not follow the prescribed rest intervals very well, the workout called for 10 and 15 second ri's...I took 30 plus. The DPS set was interesting. On my first I swam normally and counted 29 strokes for 25 m. I'm guess that's bad for someone who is 5'10". On the return 25 I got it down to 22 strokes but that involved what felt like slowly sinking then pulling myself back to the surface and then sinking again. After that I could hold around 24-25 strokes per length but it never quite felt natural. I would try to focus on the glide and also resist beginning my stroke when I push off the wall until I began to sink. I normally start stroking away as soon as my feet leave the wall. I don't understand these guys who seem to get up on plane and cross the pool in something like 6 strokes!
I love my new swim suit...I'm getting under 2' per 100 with only moderate effort and typically turning about 2:05. My tri shorts had gotten too big, I lost 30 lbs since buying them and my other shorts were obviously pretty baggy and inefficient. I'm going to try a short ride in these to see if they would be tolerable for a sprint distance triathlon.

Ideas on DPS work would be welcome. I'm not certain how critical it is at this stage but improved efficiency is always a good idea I guess.

2011-08-07 3:51 PM

in reply to: #3632010

Champion

10618

Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

JEFF -

Bottle, label, and market that "just go" post; what a hoot! (And oh-so-true!)

I don't do many straight running races anymore, but back in the day I made several bold forays into pace groups with which I had no real being part of, and was droppoed pretty quickly. I found it tough to suck that up, even as I was aware that I was over my head.

Of course, the option to getting dropped early is to die the equivalent of a thousand deaths by way of hammering myself into oblivion trying to prove I belonged. Next to getting motion-sick in small fixed-wing planes and ocean-riding boats, there is the feeling of the world imploding around one when they go too deep into That Place.....and still try to carry on gamely, and bravely, and foolishly.

Nowadays, when i do them, I start near the front, but follow only my own pace. I have found the running-race world is full of walker who think they are in a walkers-only event and start way up front, only to create massive chaos as xxx behind them attempt to pass them within the first 50 yards. So, the less of those I have to deal with, the better. I know races make all sorts of announcements about how and where people should seed themselves, but I really feel there needs to be a separate corral for walkers, or even different starting times -- 5 minutes after the runners start, or maybe 30 minutes before.

Your #7 is the best of the bunch, and it keeps building in effect -- right down to pretending to puke as an excuse to stop. All power to simulated dry heaves!!

2011-08-07 4:00 PM

in reply to: #3256772

Master

2236

Denison Texas

Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

Some of those old writing courses and Toastmaster's Club meetings kicked in for that one. Thanks for the compliments.

2011-08-07 4:38 PM

in reply to: #3632631

Champion

10618

Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

JEFF again -

As for the swim workout......

The obvious easy things to see would be:
-- A nice progression of 200s, starting with 4:24 and working down to the 4:01, with the middle two showing nice gaps in improved time, too.
-- The pb 200 shows how much "better" some of us swim with a pb, which is why it so often becomes a crutch for people. I justify it becasue I try not to kick in my races when I'm wearing a wetsuit, so why work at a skill (kicking) that I don't employ when it counts? (There are many reasons....but i choose to ignore them!

)

Beyond those two, there are these:
-- You did the right thing in choosing rest intervals that seemed to be what you needed. It is very easy to follow prescribed rest intervals and have your form fall apart by the 2nd or 3rd repeat. And actually, it doesn't matter when the form falls apart -- if it happens, it is a recipe for new, bad habits (muscle memory can be fast and fickle).
-- Short rest intervals are great for people who are fast or gifted, or who also dabble in swim meets, or who just like showing-off at the pool. For most of us, we don't do races where we have to dial it right down before dialing it right back up, and it just runs counter to the idea of doing a set distance where form counts --- and then taking some time to think about what your just did and how it went and in which ways you might want to tweak something a bit on the next length. There's a huge amount to be said about "mindful swimming", and that cannot be addressed by pushing into the red zone with fast repeats.

And then these:
-- 29 is not too bad for one who is 5'10". Total Immersion would want you to improve that, which you did with going to 22. That's a good start, and don't get discouraged by the feeling of sinking. That is probably telling you a couple of things (remember:, and then settling back to 24/25 knowledge is power!), which I will now take a stab at.
-- That sinking and pulling back to surface is almost a sure sign of a "dead spot" (or two) in your stroke, and is one of the hazards of T.I.-style swimming. Over the years I have come to believe that a low stroke rate will work well only for people who have a great kick and/or are truly efficient in their catch/pull phases. If one (that would be me....) is somewhat deficient in either, then the best that can happen with a low stroke count is relative slowness, while the worst is the sinking feeling you felt. (I have learned to compensate quite well over the years for not having an effiecient catch/pull by overemphasizing pull-strength through swimming kickless so much.)
-- The "catch-up" drill is valuable, but without the kick there is dead space as one arm hangs out there waiting for thr other to catch up to it before initiating the next propulsive stroke. Just think about it. The left arm is reaching full extension just as the riight arm is finishing its pull, and then what does that right arm do? It does its recovery, and its entry, and its own extension, all before the left arm can start its own propulsive pull. And how long does that right arm stuff take -- maybe three seconds? If there isn't a good, strong kick to carry one through the absence of a pull, then there is a very noticeable dead spot -- enough to even start to sink some!
-- Those three seconds maybe become longer, too, if the swimmer has a poor finish to their pull. There has been a lot of discussion on th forums about how important triceps strength is for freestylers, and overall it seems that it can only help thsoe who have the mechanics that enable them to access the triceps to further help that final big push just before the hand exits the water. But most of us do not have thsoe mechanics, which require just about perfect leverage position of the hand/forearm paddle, complete with high elbows under the water. So, if the stroke is realtoively weak or lazy, then the extended arm has even longer to sit out there -- working at reach, but what it is reaching for isn't getting any closer!
-- If you are going to work on extension and reach and lowering your stroke count, and if your kick isn't really strong, then try a few lengths with fins and see if you can at least develop some good front-end mechanics without worrying about (or even having to struggle through) those sinking segments. There is nothing wrong with using fins in this case!
-- Body position is just about everything is swimming, and you know how sinking and then having to drag yourself back to the surface can throw off your position. No doubt your hindquarters are doing the sinking, and whenever that happens, the head rises up in response -- and now your body is diagonal to the surface, creating all sorts of drag. Oh, nooooo!

Overall, distance per stroke IS valuable, and reducing it is a very good thing -- but only if dead spots don't happen. I spent literally years "perfecting" a long stroke that looked to observers as "effortless", but it was also quite slow. It took me a long, long time to think of swimming cadence the same as I think of bike and run cadence, which is that at some point the best results come from a faster cadence. Of course, that higher cadence has to be efficient, but not too many run fast when their turnover is, say 75/minute, or when they pedal on flats or rollers at about the same rate. And that's what happened to me with swimming -- 18 strokes/25m might look pretty, but it was doing the same as run or ride at 75/minute would do, which wopuld be to cost me lots of time.

So, over the past couple of seasons I have worked to increase my arm turnover in an effort to make every second my body is in the water one of decent forward motion. As a poor kicker who has become a non-kicker, I can't get by on swims where dead spots occur at the front of my stroke due to trying to "swim pretty", which is what happens with swimming "effortlessly". I ALWAYS race at full effort on the bike and the run.......so why should I do anything less in the water??

Lots of rambling thoughts here, for which I aoplogize. So please let me know where you need some more sanity added to the discussion, okay?

And GREAT job of the weight loss!!!!

2011-08-07 4:50 PM

in reply to: #3256772

Master

2236

Denison Texas

Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

Six weeks out from Branson, I'm not real sure the DPS work is all that useful. The wetsuit will change my stroke mechanics anyway, I haven't wore that thing since late May. The dead spots make sense, I may try to find some kind of coaching this winter. On a side not given how hot it has been all over the mid-west, I wonder about Branson still being wetsuit legal. Re the pull buoy, I don't use it often and I do my kick drills. I try to stay true to it's purpose and focus on my rotation and stroke. Maybe I can get some video posted of my swim for a critique?