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2011-08-07 7:33 PM
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Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED


ALEX --


Did you Rox today?




2011-08-07 7:50 PM
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ALEX again -

Hurry up and tell me what you think! I just looked at the results, and you REALLY roxed the bike -- close to top third overall. WOW!

Okay, then, I won't say more (not even about solid a.g. and overall placements).....and just wait for you to do the talking!







2011-08-07 10:03 PM
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stevebradley - 2011-08-07 7:32 PM JEFF - Lake Placid was not westsuit legal two weeks ago, and that's a pretty big/deep lake. The small race I didn't do yesterday, about 60 miles north of Albany, was at a lake that was 81 four days ago, so it too was not wetsuitable. I wonder about Nations in DC on 9-11, and so I'd really wonder about Branson a week later. Have you seen any photos from there in past years, and were wetsuits allowed then? I guess I could check that myself. No wetsuit since May, eh? Well, thinking about it, it makes sense --especially in light of your report of 90-degrees at Texoma. Any MMA fighters need to cut weight? Send them to texoma in a full wetsuit and let 'em swim around for a while. Mercy!

Last year was the first year, and was wetsuit legal. Some chatter I read someplace mentioned having to look around and measure deep to find cold enough water.

2011-08-07 10:06 PM
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Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

Long run tonight-13.62 miles. I feel yesterdays adventure and this mornings swim. I was slower than last week's 12.69.

One more long week and long run then it backs off a tad.

2011-08-08 8:16 AM
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JEFF -

I went to a NOAA site and saw that the water in the Hudson near Newburgh, where there is a race I am considering in two weeks, is currently 81.3 degrees. Yikes!

I have heard that, too, that RDs will poke around and find the cooler spots. Small or shallow lakes might not have them, but bigger and deeper ones -- and the mighty Hudson! -- should have plenty. Perhaps?

Yup, what you did on Saturday sure should've affected your long run yesterday, so don't get worried about declining performance or anything similar. But I know exactly how you feel, looking at the time and seeing that it wasn't where you were at pervioulsy. Just last week I had three straight days of the same swim, with my times being 32:05, 32:09, 32:29. It doesn't matter to me that my previous best on that course was about 34 minutes.......all I could see was that slowness creeping back in! It doesn't help, too, to think that I did the same high-intensity swim three days straight; I just want each to be faster than the previous one. DOH!


Training and racing are not linearally progressive.
Training and racing are not linearally progressive.
Training and racing are not linearally progressive.

There!


2011-08-08 12:35 PM
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Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

Sorry to be MIA but went to Philly on Saturday and just got back in front of my computer.  So here are my numbers...


Overall Time 2:13:52
Overall 680/929
Age Group 82/114

Swim Time 0:24:31
Overall 759
Age Group 90
Pace 03:46

T1 05:22
Overall 859
Age Group 98

Bike 0:57:43
Overall 332
Age Group 48
Pace 16.3

T2 03:39
Overall 815
Age Group 92

Run 0:42:37
Overall 854
Age Group 99
Pace 13:45

 Overall I am pretty pleased with the event.  My friend went with me and she did her first TRI and is now hooked!  
The swim was the worst ever... NO WETSUIT, I could have worn it but then would have had to start in the last wave... so decided not to.. I think that was a mistake but it did put into perspective that I need to do more swim work and without a pull bouy.  I've been relying on it way too much.

The bike was good, I was pretty please with my result there... felt like I could have pushed harder I would have liked to try and get my pace up to average 18. (and I started looking at a carbon bike... which I know doesn't necessarily make one faster but it maybe helpful)  Cool

The run was ok, I felt pretty good for most of it but since I really haven't been running too much in training it was good enough for where I am at.

Overall I am happy.  it was great fun and a great event.  I hope I can do it again next year.

Hope everyone had a great weekend.

Alex 



2011-08-08 1:14 PM
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Alex - Great job on the race.

Jeff - I have to change your quote " It is amazing how many things you will find to worry about in that 20 some odd minutes that didn't bother you before the start..."  For me it needs to say 30 some odd minutes

Well my training did not go as planned.  Saturday I woke up at 4am and went riding and about 8 miles in my bike ride my headlight went out so I had to turn around and head back home.  I did do a 4 mile run on Sunday and I think my shirt weighted more than me once we were finished. Started at 7am and temp was about 86 but the heat index was 99.  I was going to do my swim, but when I got to the gym the pool was closed because they said they heard thunder and they have to wait 30min.  I left the gym and we to my mothers house and called the gym 1 hour later and they said it was open.  I went back to the gym and the pool was closed, they said they just heard thunder and have to wait another 30min. I gave up I just left.  There was no cloud in the sky..  Why do they have to close for thunder, I can see lightening but thunder.  Well I'm leaving Friday to head to Guntersville Al which is about 5.5 hour drive north for my sprint on Sat.  I was told they are doing individual starts in the lake so it might be a long day since there is about 860 people signed up.

I hope everyone has a great day

2011-08-08 1:50 PM
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Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED
gdsemiller - 2011-08-08 1:14 PM

Alex - Great job on the race.

Jeff - I have to change your quote " It is amazing how many things you will find to worry about in that 20 some odd minutes that didn't bother you before the start..."  For me it needs to say 30 some odd minutes

Well my training did not go as planned.  Saturday I woke up at 4am and went riding and about 8 miles in my bike ride my headlight went out so I had to turn around and head back home.  I did do a 4 mile run on Sunday and I think my shirt weighted more than me once we were finished. Started at 7am and temp was about 86 but the heat index was 99.  I was going to do my swim, but when I got to the gym the pool was closed because they said they heard thunder and they have to wait 30min.  I left the gym and we to my mothers house and called the gym 1 hour later and they said it was open.  I went back to the gym and the pool was closed, they said they just heard thunder and have to wait another 30min. I gave up I just left.  There was no cloud in the sky..  Why do they have to close for thunder, I can see lightening but thunder.  Well I'm leaving Friday to head to Guntersville Al which is about 5.5 hour drive north for my sprint on Sat.  I was told they are doing individual starts in the lake so it might be a long day since there is about 860 people signed up.

I hope everyone has a great day

Isn't that the silliest thing? I know there is a remote possibility of lightening traveling through the plumbing and into the water but not likely. If the pipes are metal and running under ground-they are grounded and safe, if the pipes are PVC which is very likely these days then it really is a non-issue IMO. People are scared of liability these days or, if the pools have lifeguards, they view thunder as a chance to take a break.

This is the resource that the 30 minute rule came from but I think it gets abused.

http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_pls/indoor_pools.html



Edited by Av8rTx 2011-08-08 1:52 PM
2011-08-08 2:19 PM
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Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED
gdsemiller - 2011-08-08 1:14 PM

Alex - Great job on the race.

Jeff - I have to change your quote " It is amazing how many things you will find to worry about in that 20 some odd minutes that didn't bother you before the start..."  For me it needs to say 30 some odd minutes

Well my training did not go as planned.  Saturday I woke up at 4am and went riding and about 8 miles in my bike ride my headlight went out so I had to turn around and head back home.  I did do a 4 mile run on Sunday and I think my shirt weighted more than me once we were finished. Started at 7am and temp was about 86 but the heat index was 99.  I was going to do my swim, but when I got to the gym the pool was closed because they said they heard thunder and they have to wait 30min.  I left the gym and we to my mothers house and called the gym 1 hour later and they said it was open.  I went back to the gym and the pool was closed, they said they just heard thunder and have to wait another 30min. I gave up I just left.  There was no cloud in the sky..  Why do they have to close for thunder, I can see lightening but thunder.  Well I'm leaving Friday to head to Guntersville Al which is about 5.5 hour drive north for my sprint on Sat.  I was told they are doing individual starts in the lake so it might be a long day since there is about 860 people signed up.

I hope everyone has a great day

I once was at the Y when there was thunder and lightening--had to exit the pool and sit around. Another time was swimming and a fire alarm went off...that was worse because we had to exit the building! In our suits! Thank God is was summer time! 

What on Earth? Never heard of individual starts...long day indeed!

2011-08-08 2:27 PM
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Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED
BbMoozer - 2011-08-08 2:19 PM
gdsemiller - 2011-08-08 1:14 PM

What on Earth? Never heard of individual starts...long day indeed!

TT starts off a dock perhaps? The snake swim, serpentine swim in a pool makes for a long start

2011-08-08 4:32 PM
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Yep I was really upset about the swim, especially when I waited 1.5 hours total to swim.  When I went to the pool there was about 4 life guards sitting around playing on the computer and eating.  I was really mad, but I kept my cool and just tee tee in the pool and left.  Ok I didn't do that because i would be swimming in it later this week.  But I was mad..


2011-08-08 4:51 PM
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ALEX -

Thanks for the data and thoughts. I even printed off your results, but that of course only tells the numbers story.

Anyhow, I am pleased that you are pleased with the results; as I have viewed them a few times, you sure should be! I was really hoping that the run was overall satisfying --- and it was! Bonus!

I saw the separate listing for wetsuit people, and it was at the bottom third of one of the pages, and I clicked to go onto the next page only to find -- no more wetsuit wearers! I didn't count them, but I'd guess it was less than 20, which is quite impressive (the low numebr that opted for them). I'm sure that many were like you and gave it long and hard thought before deciding to go without; I hope you remain content with that decision. At the very least, you now know what a potential crutch the pull buoy can be, and that's coming from one (me) who uses a pb lots and knows full well the effect they have.

This has been a tough year for wetsuit addicts (that would be me, too), as several races in the northeast have had to make them legal only for people who aren't after an age group placement, or USAT points, or Kona qualification. I am a bit concerend about West Point this coming weekend, and also possibly Orange County (Newburgh) the following weekend. Yoiu can see in my post to Jeff that a NOAA site had the water temp near there at 81.3 degrees, so I now have to see where that was taken and how it might affect the swim. With the guy dying from a heart attack at NYC Tri, and a woman surviving aheart attack there, both in the swim where wetsuits were legal, this 'll make some race directors leery of having non-wetsuit swims. As Jeff said above, some RDs will just keep cruising around until they find a cold spot, and then drop the thermometer and use that temp. Sounds good to me!

I won't say anything more now about the difference I found in going from Cervelo P2K (alum) to P2C (carbon), cuz I think I already mentuioned it here, but I'll onky say that I found the difference to be significant. If none of this ruings a bell with you, ask and I will provide some details.

Big congrats, Alex, as your results continue to improve at a meteoric rate. And congrats to your friend, too, for having been giddily bitten by the tri bug!


2011-08-08 4:56 PM
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GEORGE -

I agree -- dopey reason to cancel a swim. I too would be angry, although I have to admit that the Ottawa indoor pools have never shut down even when the lightning is furious, at least when I have been in them.

As for peeing in apool, well, the word on the street is that when swim teams train in a pool, or serious swimmers are doing big sets, they don't hesitate to pee. So a swim team....that's about 20-30.....many not anting to hold it.......oh, my! But the other word on thre street is that a well-chlorintaed pool will carry no effects of urine, and I guess the only way it can affect one is if they swim right on the tail of the urinator. As I said above -- oh, my!



2011-08-08 5:00 PM
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GEORGE again -

Do you wear cotton t-shirts while running? That would maybe explain why it weighed more than you do after that recent run, and if so, get to a good running store and buy a tech-fabric t-shirt asap. These are godsends, don't know how people managed without them for so many decades. There are many different kinds, ranging from slinky to kind of rough, and from heavily-meshed to tightly-stitched, so see what fits and feels best. And FWIW, I find short sleeves intolerable for summer running --- and barely tolerable in the depth of winter. In fact, I always run in either long sleeves or no sleeves, with the latter the overwhelming preference -- except in the depths of winter!


2011-08-09 5:56 AM
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Good Morning All,

Well just finished a bike ride somewhat flat, there were a few rolling hills.  Did 20.27 miles in 1hr 14min 16.3avg speed. I wanted to push it a little harder but since I have my sprint this weekend I did not want to burn out. Tomorrow I will do an easy 2-3 mile run and around 1500yd swim, thursday another 1500yd swim and Friday will rest and drive up to the race site.

Steve - I do have a Tech T shirt. I purchased it at a local running store and its made by Brooks.  Problem is Sunday on the run it was 86 degrees with heat index of 99 at 7am in the morning so I think I lost about 2 gallons of fluid.  After the run I took my shirt off which was not a pretty site, but oh well, my wife and kids love the jiggly belly. but when I took my shirt off it was like I had a faucet turned on, the sweat was just pouring out.  I'm wondering since I sweat so much if I should be taking those electro-tablets.

Question for all you folks out there, I was just wondering, when i talk to folks around here that half raced a HIM or IM, they always talk about running with intervals.  I was just curious, does everyone with that distance run with intervals, how about like the top 5 pro finishers in the race.  When I watch a HIM or IM on the race, they only show the AG walking and not the pros.

I hope everyone has a great day today

2011-08-09 11:38 AM
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Subject: RE: Got Your Mojo WORKIN'! group - CLOSED

well...didn't do my tri on Sunday. The weather was one reason I sat on the fence and it did pour Saturday night but by the time I woke on Sunday (930 am which is really late for me) the sun was starting to pop out. So the weather didn't hold up the tri anyhow.

I'm at some sort of mental funk lately so I really don't have a great reason for ditching the tri. I also start a new job in a week so I am going thru some life transitions and I'm tired and a bit stressed. I had hoped to use the day to get a long run in for my 1/2 mary in Sept. but instead loafed. Monday I got a good longer run in finally and just may do a tri yet befoere the season ends here (but it would be a scramble at this point).

In the meantime, I was so looking forward to Diane Nyad making her epic swim!! Even though she had to quit, she is my idol for her determination and I love her zest for living.



2011-08-09 12:46 PM
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Sarah - I hope you get to pull out of your funk.  I have been there and its really hard to get motivated, but it will pass and you will be back on the roads wanting to kick some tri butt. Hang in there and good luck with the new job

2011-08-09 7:27 PM
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thanks George. If I could find 1/10th of the zeal you've got these days, I'd be a tri monkey! LOL You are doing great!
2011-08-09 11:44 PM
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GEORGE -

Second thought first, which is intervals for HIM or IM. Most age-groupers will be in no shape at all to take advantage of interval training, when they are doing either of those distances. Here's two things I think I know about intervals:

(1) It has stuck with me what I read somewhere at sometime as a sub-caption to interval training: "The need for speed". I will return to this, but I'll let #2 fill in some gaps.

(2) Interval training is done at high-intensity, from a high Zone 3 up through Zone 5, depending on the athlete. I think I have also read that it is a pace that an elite can sustain for about 15 minutes maximum, which would correspond to about 5000m. For most age-groupers, though, 15 minutes at those high zones would get them only about 3000-4000m.

A half-iron will be 21100m, way, way, way beyond anything they can even remotely hope to sustain. So, really, they have no "need for speed". And as speed is a relative thing even for elites, what one of them can do for 15 minutes is not at all what they can do for the duration of HIM or IM runs. They may still do them FAST, but not at a sustained Zone 3/4/5.

Possible reasons why age-groupers walk so much of HIM and IM runs? How about.....
a.) They have trained too much for speed.
b.) They have figured that with those intervals under their belt, they can do that for 13.1 or 26.2 miles, and they blow up real fast.
c.) They have not worked at developing a pace that can be held, more or less, for the 13.1 or 26.2 miles.

The pace for (c) comes from LSD runs -- Long Slow Distance. That doesn't mean that all their runs need be ponderously slow, but they should be consistent within a given range, which can be about one-minute per mile faster and up to two minutes per mile slower than their planned race pace. So, if I'm hoping to do a HIM run at 8-minute miles, I will do NO runs at all at anything under 7-minute miles, and my slowest and longest runs will be no slower than 10 minutes/mile.

Now, having said that, I cannot sustain 7-minute miles for even three miles, or just barely; I have maybe done one sprint run in a tri at 21 minutes, and only a couple of stand-alone 5km runs at that pace. On the other side, I am incapable of training at two minutes slower than my planned race pace, although many people can dial it down that far and be content with it.

In my worldview, a fast HIM run is sub-1:45, or maybe even sub-1:40, while a good, solid run might be sub-1:55. So, all you need to do is scan results of HIM runs to see how few people manage runs at those speeds. AND, even at that, I don't think it is intervals that allow them to go fast, but rather just stretching their sustainable skill at the chosen long run distance to be able to pull off those decent times.

One final thought on this is that at my fall '10 half-marathon, I did it in 1:37. I was very pleased with that, but the particular aspect that pleased me the most was that I sensed my pace was incredibly consistent throughout (markers were sporadically placed, so I couldn't tell from km to km to km). I did ZERO speed training for that race, which was fine because I employed zero speed in running it, relying instead on an ability to consistent tap out a very good pace that I sustained for the 21.1km.

Final-final thought: Unless a new-to-tri athlete has innate speed, it is something that has to be developed over the years, and usually starting at sprints and then working up. That is, the first distance at which speed is displayed will be at a sprint, and after a few satisfying fastish sprints, then it's time to work at speed at olys, and so on.

Final-final-final thought is that a few years ago, fater about my 15th half-iron, it became obvious to me that my best route to a fast HIM was to hone my speed at olys. So, that's where I put my emphasis. The results of tat are kind of inconclusive, though, as my body generally has not held up well to HIM training, so I have done few (two?) of those since that experiment began. But the good news is that I DID succeed in getting faster at olys, which is pleasing enough on its own!!

Onwards!


2011-08-09 11:53 PM
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GEORGE again -

As for the other thought, about sweating and electrolyte tablets or capsules....it depends on how much sodium you lose in the process of sweating. If you find that your clothes have white salt stains on them, it might help you to get some additional electrolytes into your system. These will NOT help you sweat less, whiich you really don't want to do anyway -- sweat is the body's way of cooling itself. But if in the sweating process you are losing salts and other electrolytes, and this is resulting in frequent cramping, then something like Hammer's Endurolytes might help you.

For me, I sweat moderately-plus, and uit seems that as I age I am sweating more! I can see salt lines on the black underbill of my running caps, but as I don't cramp frequently I don't take Endurolytes when I train. I WILL take them during HIM, however, and also olys on very hot or humid days -- just in case!

That said, is you are planning on using them during a race at some point, experiment with them beforehand, and more than once, too! Remeber, too, that most humans nowadays have ample salt in ouyr sytstems as it is, so for most of us the addition of prodigious amounts of supplementary salts is not necessary.

So ---- any salt stains on your clothing post-workouts?



2011-08-10 12:00 AM
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SARAH -

To my way of thinking, here's an equation that is reliable:

new job + life transitions x (tired x stress) = mental funk.

Really, any one of those can weigh on a person, and you've got the equivalent of the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse wreaking havoc on you, so aloow yourself to make a guilt-free decision to step back from a race that wasn't an "A"-priority one for you. And even missing the planned run for the Sept half-marathon, well, there's still lots of time to fit that in, which it sounds like you did in large measure on Monday, anyhow. Congrats to you for that, to be sure!!


Illegitimum non carborundum!!







2011-08-10 12:02 AM
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Close call for me on the bike today. Details soon!

RIDE SAFELY, GANG, AND ALWAYS BE PROACTIVE ABOUT SAFETY MATTERS!!!!!



2011-08-10 5:27 AM
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Steve - Thanks for your thought on intervals.  As for salt stains, on Sunday when i did the 4 mile run, there was no salt stains on my dark blue Brooks Tech-shirt.  I have always sweated alot during training but I have not seen any salt stains so I guess I will hold off on the electolyte tabs.

Ok Steve, what happened on the bike today? 

Well just did a 2 mile run and off to the pool for about 1500yds, but first I better listen for anything that might sound like thunder . Man I love this week because I get to take it easy before I turn the heat up on Sat race. 

Have a great day everyone.



Edited by gdsemiller 2011-08-10 5:28 AM
2011-08-10 7:19 AM
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Steve -  Have you ever raced the IM St George. I watched the 2011 one and man that looks like a tough course, they said it's one of the toughest on the IM series.  They had 3 or 4 pros drop out of the race and out of the 1700 AG only about 1300 finished. I might make that my 1st IM in 2013, ok maybe not..
2011-08-10 7:23 AM
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GEORGE -

Yes, maybe wait. You might want to look around for some manufacturers' recommendations as to the point at which they become more valuable. It seems I should know this.....but right now I don't want to hazard much of a guess. However, i will say that most people will not lose enough "stuff" through sweating in shorter events -- maybe 5km and 10km runs, and sprint and oly triathlons. I think people get the most benefits from additional electrolytes and/or sodium when they are out there for a few hours. I have never used them in half-marathons, but have in half-irons and irons. As for the marathons I have done, I cannot remember using them, at least not in my first five or six, which were before Endurolytes were invented. My last two stand-alone marathons were in '03 and '04, and I would hazard the guess that Endurolytes weren't around then, either. Hmmm.

Just for some addded knowledge for you, serious speedsters will gauge their zones, and the structure of their intervals, through their VO2max values. I won't try to explain all the intricacies of VO2max, but the data are obtained through those killer lab tests on a treadmill where you are breathing into a tube and having blood extracted from your fingertips as the test progresses. I have had it done once (well, once each for bike and run, a few days apart) back in '02 maybe, and it was a trip. I think the standard for the test is to begin it at your 10km race pace, and then every minute or so the treadmill speed is increased. This goes on until the athlete cannot continue, and at that point you an get the data for max HR, and VO2max and lactate threshhold levels. Where this helps the average athlete is in setting fairly accurate heart rate zones, at least much more accurate than 220-age calculations. But the latter costs nothing, either in terms of money or the agony of doing the testing, so more people than not will go that route.

ANYHOW, just thinking of the connections --- intervals to VO2max to 10km race pace to efforts sustained for 10-15 minutes --- will tell you that intervals won't work real well for people who wil not or cannot use such speed during those longer events. Using me as an example, here are run times that would please me in a triathlon:
sprint (5km) -- 22:00 (best ~21:40)
olym (10km) -- 46:00 (best ~43:30)
HIM (21.1km) -- 1:50 (best ~1:41)
IM (26.2km) -- 4:15 (best ~4:10)
You can see how my times "drop off" as those distances increase, and even going from 5km to 10km in a tri, I cannot realistically hope to keep the pace that gets me through a sprint run in 21:40. Man, I would love to do an oly run in 43:20, but that has never happened; my fastest oly 10km was 44-something, I think. So, what I can do at "speed" for short stuff just isn't possible for me at longer stuff ---- so I see no need to train for a half-iron as I would for a sprint. Makes sense?



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