Beth and Yanti's New Manatees - FULL! :-) (Page 15)

Kick enough to keep your legs floating just at or beneath the surface (non-wetsuit, and if you're in a wetsuit, add about that much kick since your legs will float by themselves). That's not a lot of kick; it's really more for balance and to keep the legs propelling themselves.

But kicking less means that your arms are having to pull along the dead weight of your legs, which is not efficient swimming.

You train yourself to kick more by doing it consciously, by writing into a workout a reminder to kick, or specifically, to focus on kicking during one of your swimming sets. Repeated reminders, basically.

Now, if you don't know how to kick, or have stiff ankles, or have kicking issues--that's a different thing.

Kicking is one of my biggest challenge (which I am still struggling with) - but that's for a different discussion. As I questioned and read about it, my conclusion is that there are two main types of kicking: Propelling kick (as Pam, who's name was mentioned earlier is utilizing) and Balancing kick (in which the kick does not propel you as much through the water, but rather helps the balancing of the body while rotating the body from side to side). According to my coach, propelling kicks are used by sprint swimmers while balancing kicks are used for long distances.

A wetsuit actually adds another dimension here. As the legs would not sink, there is no theoretical need to to kick. However, kicking can help with propelling, balancing and getting the core more engaged in the swim - causing the upper body to be more efficient. After all, swimming training is all about how to become more efficient in an unnatural environment for us human beings.

I really don't know how to kick. ..other than the occasional kick for balance.  My legs don't drop either when I do swim. 

Thank you for all the swim advice.  I think that as I plan out my swim workouts a little more, I'll be able to set up drills in which I can use the zoomers and main sets without.  The training plan I'm on right now just has time goals.  

I did get a waterproof swim workout book that I intend to use.  It has drills and specific workouts to improve your form.   

Here's another question......when doing kick drills is it better to do them without a kickboard?  I have heard that using a kickboard can mess up your form.....is this true? 

Another BT swim guru weighing in on the fin question -

I think it's helpful to hear the perspective from more than one voice -

from our own BT rockstar rstocks (Bob)

thanks Bob!

To kick or not to kick, is debated a lot for triathlons and just like with any other discipline, there are different schools of thought on it's importance

The kick in a tri race is definitely more for balance than propulsion, however, it's still important

The kick is part of the over all efficiency and helps you move through the water - you don't want to kick hard, like in a sprint race, but you do want to have enough of a kick that your legs are helping you move through the water more efficiently

Most people make the mistake of kicking to hard because they initiate much to large of a kick.  Keep the kick about 12 - 18 inches -

Try to imagine yourself swimming through a tube as you swim to keep as streamlined as possible and eliminate unwanted drag

the key to easy effecient kicking is to keep the feet and ankles loose and flexible

http://youtube.com/watch?v=oac5nUDns94

hope this helps and doesn't confuse

excellent points Ronen!

I've not yet swum in a wetsuit - that should be interesting when the time comes

good question, again - different schools of thought

I've never thought that a kickboard would mess up form - but that all depends on whether or not you are holding the kickboard correctly while using one

Since holding a kickboard correctly is not particularly intuitive and kick drills while using a kickboard are generally geared toward focusing on propulsion rather than balance

for the purpose of triathlon training, I would suggest going without a board - that way you are working on the kick as a way to help you balance as you move through the water

Good question Joel - I hadn't really thought about the fact that these examples could also be confusing -

I put the links up as an example of good form - regardless of whether you are kicking for balance or speed, the leg and overall body position is relatively the same -

your legs should be together and you should focus on body position and form - in my opinion, if you are swimming freestyle you should flutter kick

A big part of swimming efficiently is body position and being streamlined in the water

There are lots of people that say to conserve the kick, and I don't totally disagree with that - however, you want to be as efficient as possible in the water and a solid kick technique is part of that

does that help at all?

Another swim reflection -

the hardest part about learning to swim is that there is sooooo much to focus on - it's important to focus on one thing at a time and work to putting them together - in other words, get comfortable with one skill and then add the next

Most of us want to focus on all of it at once - I'll go back to my days as a swim instructor - one step at a time

obviously you have to do them all together - but don't sweat it if your kick is off, if breathing is what is what is really more difficult or is causing more problems for you

As a guideline I think this is a good way to think about learning to swim - if this guideline is helpful, I'd be happy to post for the group, or email to folks that are interested - just let me know your preference

Breathing - very important and this is a huge challenge for most people when they are learning to swim - sounds silly, but it can sometimes be the most difficult thing to learn

Body Position - once you are comfortable with how to breathe while you are in the water, focus on the position of your body in the water

Body Rotation - putting together the breathing and the body position

once you start feeling these things, then start focusing on the stroke and the kick

Disclaimer : It is very difficult to diagnose what is going on or what someone needs to change without actually seeing them swim.  As always I highly recommend finding a coach, a class, a workshop or even a friend with a solid swimming background to help identify issues and assist with areas of focus

remember - one lap at a time, and your form doesn't have to be perfect to compete in a tri

not to change the subject from swimming....but... :-}

I am trying to understand my running heart rate

when I run my hear rate always seams to stay at or near my max rate which is around 180 while running it might get down to 174 

 although I usually feel just fine during the run

 My question is even though I feel I am running at a slower pace... is this normal? or

 what should I try

 Thanks in advance

 Chad

Hi Chad! Nice to see you!

My first question is, where are you getting the figure of 180 from? Max heart rate means the absolute maximum that your heart could possibly beat in one minute ... is it possible you mean maximum aerobic heart rate? I'm still curious where the 180 comes from, though.

 Good question

I'm glad it was helpful!  keep asking questions

The formulas can be WAY off--it's the rare person for whom they're actually spot-on.

Here's a link to a thread that explains how to find YOUR heart rate zones. It's really important, if you're going to do heart-rate training (which I'm a big fan of, btw), that you find your zones for where you're at right now.

All you need to read, and do, is the first post. It's a very long and interesting thread, but all you really need to know and do is the first post!

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=25733&start=1

There's another way to do it as well, but it will take a little more time. Wear your heart rate monitor every time you exercise. Make a point to notice exactly what your heart rate (and will be different for running and cycling, so need to do it for both) is at that moment between where you could carry on a conversation, even if you'd need to take breaths to talk, and when your breathing is a little more labored and you're finding you have to put some effort in to keep moving at that pace.

If you keep sharp tabs on it, you should notice a pattern of a fairly narrow window (within a few heartbeats) of where this point occurs.

That heart rate would be your maximum aerobic heart rate, also known as your LT (lactate threshhold).

The first post in the link explains how to set up your training zones based on that.

 Thanks that looks great

 one question how do they come up with the zones after johnny finds his average

 ohnny has an average of 156 heart rate for his 30 minute run TT. If I calculate Johnny's zones using his LT and the Training Bible zones, this is what I come up with: 

Good catch, Chad! Whoops! There's actually tables in the Training Bible, which I have ... they don't actually give a formula.

If you post what your numbers are when you get them, I'd be happy to post what your zones are.

In the meanwhile? Let's say your max heart rate is 180, based on the formula. It's a starting point from which you can explore where the line between somewhat hard and hard is (that point where breathing becomes labored and you couldn't carry on a conversation).

I'm not suggesting you train by these zones. Until you can get your LT testing done or enough observation to determine where your LT is, these are starting points to see whether those heart rates correspond to your effort levels.

Zone 1, 50%-60% MHR = 90-108 bpm (very easy to easy)

Zone 2, 60%-70% MHR = 109-126 (easy to medium)

Zone 3, 70-80% MHR = 127-144 (medium to somewhat hard)

Zone 4, 80-90% MHR = 145-162 (hard to very hard)

Zone 5, 90-100% MHR = 163+ (maximal)

Erin, you are a SCREAM. Ha ha ha.

But I definitely agree with you and Bethie Love. Slow and steady is fine for the swim--by all means, don't let that stop you either from swim training (which is necessary to get less slow) and definitely not from being in a triathlon!

That's what we're all ultimately here for, and being in races is an absolute blast. It also gives you excellent, racing-specific experience, which is invaluable.

Awww, Miss Bunny! I knew you were sick; I'm just so glad you're on the mend. We love having you around!

Flu is some serious schmyte. You may feel fatigued for a good few days yet. Be sure to take it easy, and start out at a slow walk when you do pick it back up--don't feel as if you "have" to get your workouts in.

You know all this already but I thought I'd give the gentle nudge reminder!

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