Ironman Coeur d'Alene : Official Thread (Page 161)
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Extreme Veteran![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Here's a video of the swim start that my honey/tri-sherpa extraordinaire took. Pretty awesome!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZODXvyo6_Xc |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Re: to Josh - I know your post wasn't specifically directed at me, but I'll write my perspective on it. The problems I described in my last post were things I knew and accepted coming into this race. I trained on the schedule my time would allow, and to maximize my gains I almost completely avoided swimming last year. I knew that would cause me to fatigue and hurt my bike/run. But... but! I took something like 30 mins off my bike and an hour off my run from last year's race. *Could* I have prepared better? Sure... and lost my job. I have no regrets and I'll continue to plan training according to which areas I can improve the most. |
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Elite![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Ashley's video was very telling. Certainly have a look at it.Thanks to Luke for getting such great footage. We look like we are marching to our deaths! Josh and Fred make solid points. The critical self analysis is necessary to learn what changes must be incorporated for future IM training. I hate/like suffering through it all as a necessary component so that I will get hungry again and come back ready to fix the areas that need to be fixed in training and racing. Bottom line for me, several errors need to be attended to. I think you have to look at everything, race day and in training. |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Fred Doucette - 2011-06-30 8:36 AM spudone - 2011-06-30 11:28 AM Re: to Josh - I know your post wasn't specifically directed at me, but I'll write my perspective on it. The problems I described in my last post were things I knew and accepted coming into this race. I trained on the schedule my time would allow, and to maximize my gains I almost completely avoided swimming last year. I knew that would cause me to fatigue and hurt my bike/run. But... but! I took something like 30 mins off my bike and an hour off my run from last year's race. *Could* I have prepared better? Sure... and lost my job. I have no regrets and I'll continue to plan training according to which areas I can improve the most. Good points. There are honestly extermely legitimate reasons why race day does not go well (or the way you dreamed). I think the key is to see the 'truth' in what happened(s). I've had race failures and open up the race and prep to full analysis. I think i get to the honest issues that are the root causes. Root cause analysis is often painful, but it gives the answers that help us understand our mistakes/letdowns etc. Whether you can change things that the root cause analysis comes up with is not always a certainty, as sometimes life really does and SHOULD get in the way. Cheers. The one thing I missed in training was a long OW swim + long bike day. It's tough to do in the northwest with a June race, though. That would've given me a better feel for my power target. |
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Elite![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() check this out: http://coeurdalene.kxly.com/news/community-spirit/making-new-friends-ford-ironman-coeur-d-alene/49893 |
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New user![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() While I'm very grateful I was able to finish the race, I definitely would like to enjoy the experience more the next time by hopefully avoiding some of the issues I had at CDA. I look like death warmed over in my finisher picture, and that is a very accurate portrayal of how I felt. I would love to get your input and to that purpose I ask: 1. What is the best way to prevent the GI distress I felt coming out of T2? Took in water, Perpeteum and a couple of bananas on the bike and stomach felt OK. I was barely able to get anything (liquid or solid) down the first 9 miles of the run without feeling sick (belched a lot), and then had to just give up trying. When I did try to get some Perform down after mile 16, puked it right up. 2. How to practice OWS techniques, when basically all training laps done in a pool? Due to the chop, I decided Saturday during a practice swim that I would have to go to 2 stroke, breathe on one side technique while watching other people obviously more comfortable in water stroking it out. I had spent all my time, on 3 stroke alternate breathing as prescribed by just about everything I read. Those practice swims really saved my bacon. 3. I was trying to follow the Ironfit "intermediate plan" during the first half of my traing, but illness and work-travel basically cut me back to the "just finish" equivalent, which I fell short of in actual hours. There are only very short bricks in the plan. This seems to be a fair amount of disagreement on whether to brick at all, and if you do then short bricks like this don't seem to be all that useful. Comments? Again, thanks for your wisdom. |
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![]() | ![]() Even though I was kind of in and out on this thread, I appreciated reading everybody's opinions. It was certainly helpful in various ways. Personally, I had a fantastic day. I'm still riding the high, and also taking a look at the day to see where I can improve. I posted my race report if you're so inclined to read it. But it was truly an amazing day. And for my first Ironman, I'll take it. (IMCDA Finish.jpg) Attachments ---------------- IMCDA Finish.jpg (26KB - 9 downloads) |
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Extreme Veteran![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Fred Doucette - 2011-06-30 8:25 AM Honestly I think part of problem with analyzing a race afterward is that most people aren't honest with what they could do on that day or they aren't honest with themselves about how you felt during the race. Everyone tends to throw out their perfect race time as their "goal" time and truth be told there aren't very many perfect races. Everybody can point to a spot here or there where they could have done something better. I don't think Fred or Josh are giving the race enough credit. It humbles a lot of people. I have a friend that did Cda as his 10th ironman and finally got it right. To suggest that you should get it righ the first time is a little too ambitious. You will make mistakes you just have to learn from them. JoshKaptur - 2011-06-30 8:22 AM Tough love time. This post is not for those of you who are celebrating, who just finished your first IM, or who crashed a bike or got hypothermic or whatever. This is for the folks who trained their hearts out but then didn't have it on race day, and are now left with questions and struggling to feel good about their experience. Just a warning that I'm not going to be kind or encouraging or soft pedal anythign in the text below. If you have thin skin, read no further. That said, here goes: If you have a race that is less than what you wanted, there are two places to look: 1) race day [mis]execution - you guys are focusing on this and I think that's smart. Things like gearing, pacing, nutrition, etc. In general, though, it sounds like most folks were pretty smart about this on this thread (good, because we preached it for months leading up to the race). However, I DON'T think hills on the bike/run are to blame for most folks that were trained well. Someone who biked a couple thousand miles in prep for this race can ride any hill, regardless of what hills they had to train on. The key is power output... and that's all about gearing and pacing. With the right gears, any hill on the course can be ridden at whatever your goal wattage should have been. That should take no more out of you than riding on a flat at the same wattage. However, if it felt like you couldn't hit the right numbers, I'd look at part 2 of the equation. 2) preparation (training) and taper - as we've discussed a million times on here, there is no single right way for everyone. But you can assume there is a best way for you, personally... and perhaps a poor performance on race day means you missed it. Just to be honest, as I watched a few logs leading up to the race there was some stuff in there that made me nervous. I keep my mouth shut about that stuff since I'm not anyone's coach and lots of what I was nervous about was apparently prescribed by a coach. But still you should wonder what it means if your best performances came in training and not in the race, and you can't identify any real execution mistakes in your race. Hard to talk specifics without a long and careful look at totality of training, athlete history, B-races during prep, taper, etc... but don't forget the "what would I do different in training" part of the equation. It's very possible to arrive at IM overtrained, burned out, over tapered, inadequately tapered, not fully recovered from your last race or epic workout, fightin injury of sickness that could have been avoided with a slightly more conservative approach, etc. It's just a reality with so many folks in this thread that some of you made the mistake of trying to squeeze that last little bit of fitness into your training and ironically it cost you (instead of benefitted you) on race day. Sometimes that grapsed-for fitness is on top of an already incredibly fit race machine that would have been fine without that last long run, last big brick, etc. Other times it's desperate for fitness because my training wasn't what I hoped in months prior due to X, Y, and Z. Finding that balance is so hard, but both of those (what I call "icing" fitness or "ketchup" fitness) usually end up hurting race day performance. Just to be honest I saw some people people being way too aggressive way too late in the game for my conservative training philosophies. Yeah I'm the guy who advocated in late 2010 some training methodologies that many people scoffed at as impractical, a recipe for overtraining, etc. But I'm still calling myself conservative because I advocated for what seemed insane EARLY in training. The mistake that is all to easy to make is to wait too late to get there (usually because we don't start early enough, and sometimes because we did start early enough but then get dragged along by the momentum of that insanity past the sweet spot). Just thinking out loud. Sorry if this is harsh... you were warned. The only way your race is a real waste is if you fail to use it to identify the stuff above, and go repeat the same mistakes next time. Getting it right when you've gotten it wrong before is far more rewarding than stumbling onto it the first time. Yeah I know... so says the guy who ran 10:20 in his first IM... but trust me that came after dozens of failures at smaller races and after I poured a ton of energy into become as self-aware as I could about training and racing. Oh and let's not talk about the most disasterous race I've ever had -- the HIM after my IM, where I stupidly figured I was invincible because of all the IM training. Anyway... it's all too easy to miss the mark, whether you've hit it before or not. But usually (yeah, I said it), we need to look in the mirror if we end up saying (I wish that race had been 3 weeks ago when I did that huge brick and felt great." Josh PS - yes it's possible to just have a bad day... it can happen to anyone. I'm not saying if you had a bad day it's your fault or that you necessarily screwed something up big time. I'm just saying it's worth a humble and honest look to see if there's anything that could be adjusted. Josh makes good points. Truthfully I would have been harsher. If your day does not go according to what you expected, then taking a VERY hard and careful look at what the potential causes are is the only way to get better. Usually there are multiple factors at play, but training, fitness and pacing are usually at the heart of it all. Triathletes who reach their goals tend to be people who are willing to take objective looks at what went on, which can be pretty ego-destructive at times. Certainly no one has to do this, but blaming nutrition or something of the like as a sole cause will not probably get you where you want to go.... if that place is faster with the 'goal' reached. If the goals are different then hard self-evaluation may not be that important. |
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![]() This user's post has been ignored. Edited by Fred Doucette 2011-06-30 1:56 PM |
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Extreme Veteran![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Fred- it wasn't so much directed at you. I think we said similar things. I just felt like Josh was saying people screwed up and it was all their fault. Occasionally things outside of your control can blow up our plan. Some people can't handle 55 degree water and it carries over to their bike. |
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Elite![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Count me as the dimwit who thought I figured it out after a great day at IM #2. Doing the same exact things on IM #3 (as IM #2) and turning in a flawed performance resulted in me realizing I didn't have it in the bag. I think Josh and Fred's input is valuable. I need to be harsh on myself but even doing that doesn't guarantee any success for IM #4. There I said it. There will be an IM #4 and it will hopefully be sooner than later so I don't lose all this fitness and knowledge. |
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Extreme Veteran![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() My feet still hurt and are all blistered up, but I continue to float on cloud nine after finishing my first Ironman. Heck, I even beat my predicted best-case scenario time of 16:45 by eight minutes and 56 seconds! ![]() Maybe one of these days I'll actually write my Race Report. Here are a couple of links: My post-race column: http://desne.ws/iKI67I My pre-race column: http://desne.ws/jn0GYx And a fun picture of my "Ironman" family just before midnight Sunday in Coeur d'Alene: Edited by mrwrite 2011-06-30 2:53 PM (DSC_0178croppededited.jpg) Attachments ---------------- DSC_0178croppededited.jpg (98KB - 14 downloads) |
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Member![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Another note on race nutrition. I decided early on in the bike to consume calories when I felt like it. I made sure to drink more than I wanted, but I ate Powerbars when I was hungry, took a couple Gu's when I wanted some caffeine, ate some pretzels when I needed salt, and drank a bit of Coke on the run. All in all I figure I consumed somewhere around 1000 cal for the whole race. That's an average of 75 calories an hour. I never once felt like I was bonking and my GI system for the most part was fine (a fine line was walked on the run between feeling alright and nausea). I am not advocating this approach for everyone, just giving my n=1 experience. In training, I had practiced with anything from no nutrition on some of my long runs, to upwards of 200 calories per hour on a few bike rides. I almost always felt better on long days with less. Granted, I'm only about 125 pounds, but even accounting for that it's lower than most numbers I have seen mentioned. Anyone with more knowledge in this area have any thoughts?
As an aside: is it weird that I'm already itchy to get back to training? How long is everyone planning to recover? I'm going on a backpacking trip this weekend with a few friends including an Army officer buddy, so I expect to be thoroughly drilled into the ground |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() mrwrite - I think I can safely say we are ALL super impressed with your training and your result. You were so consistent on your logs through the last few months -- probably gave Slayer a run for his money. We all know how hard it is to prepare for IM distance. Doing that work AND losing a ton of weight is nothing short of amazing. |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Fred Doucette - 2011-06-30 11:36 AM spudone - 2011-06-30 11:28 AM Re: to Josh - I know your post wasn't specifically directed at me, but I'll write my perspective on it. The problems I described in my last post were things I knew and accepted coming into this race. I trained on the schedule my time would allow, and to maximize my gains I almost completely avoided swimming last year. I knew that would cause me to fatigue and hurt my bike/run. But... but! I took something like 30 mins off my bike and an hour off my run from last year's race. *Could* I have prepared better? Sure... and lost my job. I have no regrets and I'll continue to plan training according to which areas I can improve the most. Good points. There are honestly extermely legitimate reasons why race day does not go well (or the way you dreamed). I think the key is to see the 'truth' in what happened(s). I've had race failures and open up the race and prep to full analysis. I think i get to the honest issues that are the root causes. Root cause analysis is often painful, but it gives the answers that help us understand our mistakes/letdowns etc. Whether you can change things that the root cause analysis comes up with is not always a certainty, as sometimes life really does and SHOULD get in the way. Cheers. Let me reiterate that it was not directed at anyone specifically. My own CdA wasn't what I had hoped... I DNSed long before June 26, and as I've stated it was 100% the right decision for me based on other things happening in my life. For someone else who has to make compromises in training but still shows up on race day, I have no judgment whatsoever. Like I said, I was writing to the people who trained their heart out but felt their races didn't come together. If any of you think I'm being overly harsh please go read it again with all the disclaimers. I specifically warned before I wrote that post that it wasn't meant for everyone on here, but only the people who wanted some tough love. I think if you look at what I've said *in general* on this thread I've been very congratulatory, encouraging, supportive, etc. I also admitted that I've bombed more races than I've nailed, and considering how many times I preached about gearing and pacing and the like, I think it's hard to say I don't respect the race. Edited by JoshKaptur 2011-06-30 3:55 PM |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Fred Doucette - 2011-06-30 2:19 PM jamesarr - 2011-06-30 2:09 PM 1. What is the best way to prevent the GI distress I felt coming out of T2? Took in water, Perpeteum and a couple of bananas on the bike and stomach felt OK. I was barely able to get anything (liquid or solid) down the first 9 miles of the run without feeling sick (belched a lot), and then had to just give up trying. When I did try to get some Perform down after mile 16, puked it right up. Good question. Here are a few thoughts: 2. Fitness and pacing within that fitness. By far the most common issue that causes shut down of the stomach is pushing too hard on swim and bike. The problem is the dleterious effects aren't felt until you are well into the ride, often not till the end of the ride. To bike well at ironman takes GREAT fitness and even more importantly takes very careful and cautious pacing off that precious fitness. 3. People generally eat and drink too much on the course. It's a fact. They think that it's going to be a long day and they better load up now for the run later. Also drinking or eating within the first 15 minutes of the bike is a no-no for me. You have just moved from laying horizontal for an hour and are upright. You are probably thirsty, but I hold off for the start of the bike.
By far the biggest issue is just simply biking harder than your fitness can sustain. Remember to count the swim in that equation as well. Also adrenaline is up on raceday so we don't always feel the fact we are pushing so hard on the bike until it's too late. Ironman is very tough. I've made all the above mistakes more than a few times. I just don't blame it ALL on nutrition because for most triathletes that is not the real answer imho. I agree with Fred, but do have a follow up question. Had you practiced your nutrition in training? For me, sports drinks with protein in them guarantee eventual GI distress during prolonged exercise. As for bricks... my personal view is that you're better off having two quality workouts separated by recovery, but that they are often necessary from a scheduling standpoint. I'm actually a fan of the "reverse brick" where you run and then bike. Allows you to run on fresh legs whereas I get nervous about running on bike-tired legs from an injury prevention standpoint. I've never seen any compelling evidence that brick workout does anything special physiologically (teach yourself to run on tired legs or that sort of thing). For some (particularly newbies) there may be psychological benefit, and I'm fine with that. Edited by JoshKaptur 2011-06-30 4:18 PM |
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Master![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() mallen4574 - 2011-06-30 3:09 PM Fred- it wasn't so much directed at you. I think we said similar things. I just felt like Josh was saying people screwed up and it was all their fault. Occasionally things outside of your control can blow up our plan. Some people can't handle 55 degree water and it carries over to their bike. Scott - sorry if my post offended you or came across harsh. I specifically mentioned poor reaction to cold water as something you can't control. But I'm willing to bet the farm that there are people who misexecuted their bike based on their actual fitness and blew up who are convinced it was the cold water, or the IM Perform Drink, etc. I actually have no problem with that, but want to encourage people who really want to make an improvement to not look ONLY (or even first) to outside forces. |
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Veteran![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() dws.ridesere - 2011-06-30 1:25 PM Even though I was kind of in and out on this thread, I appreciated reading everybody's opinions. It was certainly helpful in various ways. Personally, I had a fantastic day. I'm still riding the high, and also taking a look at the day to see where I can improve. I posted my race report if you're so inclined to read it. But it was truly an amazing day. And for my first Ironman, I'll take it. Holy crap. You and I went back and forth on the bike all day. You edged ahead of me the last part of the ride and I think on first part of the run. I caught you near the 2/3rds part of the run. I only remember you because of your cool muscle suit. Congrats. You and I were within 10 minutes of each other. I did 10:50. I had the red KSwiss top. Edited by 3Aims 2011-06-30 4:52 PM |
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Expert![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() nerdjock - 2011-06-29 8:02 PM Here's a video of the swim start that my honey/tri-sherpa extraordinaire took. Pretty awesome!
RADICAL Vid Nerdjock, thanks for sharing!!! |
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Extreme Veteran![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() | ![]() Dang...some posts in the last two pages that are nothing but a big downer.
Here...let me gloat a bit to bring the enthusiasm back up. Personally I'm just totally stoked on what I accomplished on sunday. 12:23 in my first IM, first race longer than an OLY, first bike ride longer than 106 miles and first run longer than 20 miles. I had no nutrition issues, never suffered from the cold or crowds during the swim. I have nary a hot spot on my feet, and other than a left big toenail that is about to jump ship, my body already feels about 90% recovered. I feel like I could go for an easy run right now with no problems. I did have to buy some compression sleeves for my poor legs which after 1300 miles of driving, are ballooned up like crazy.
My only regrets:
1. Not paying closer attention to my little brothers first IM time. Had I known it was 12:22, I would have made sure I shaved 2 minutes off my time just for the chance to gloat a little bit. 2. I figured out that my 4 stops to pee on the bike cost me the 14 minutes I went over a nice even 6 hour bike. My computer stops when the bike stops, and it read 6:01 for the ride (I rode a 6:14). No big deal, but I think I took in too much liquid....but its better than too little. |
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