Asphalt Junkies CLOSED AND GETTING OUR FIX (Page 165)

So I finally got around to installing the new Kurt Kenetic bike computer I got for my birthday. I already have a Cateye which I am very happy with but the reason I got the KK was because it is a power meter too and it was cheap, at least compared to something like an iBike power meter.

The only thing bad about it is that it is wired from the computer stand to the cadence sensor so you have to run the wire down the frame of the bike towards the rear wheel. I can't imagine permanently doing that it just looks so ghetto on a nice bike!

I am only using it for the winter for the trainer so I temporarily jury rigged it on the bike. I guess you get what you pay for but it will serve it's purpose of letting me train using power instead of relying on HR. I am planning on starting Jorge's winter cycling program so I figured it would be easier and more reliable to do it that way. We shall see.

Jonathan those pictures are gorgeous! Looks like a great experience. I hope your feet heal up quickly. Those blisters sound nasty.

Sounds like you'll be getting some good info. I just ordered a Garmin cadence sensor and I think I'll subscribe to Trainer Road to try to get some kind of data from my trainer rides this winter. I've always just used RPE with a Spinnervals DVD or a little bit of HR training combined with Jorge's cycling program last spring. I was looking at the Sufferfest videos this morning too. You can combine a sufferfest download with TR which sounds kind of cool but I would want to have everything on the big screen TV instead of my laptop. Anyone know if I can do that?

Jonathon, great pics!  thanks for sharing.  Also good luck on your HM....and blisters!

Tony, enjoy the trainer and gadgets...lol

Got a 45 minute ride in today, I WAY over dressed then a short run.  I'm running a 5 mile race tomorrow but I will not be racing, just using it as practice running with people because I usually run solo.

I have to go out of town all next week for work but it will be in S. FL so maybe it will be warmer.

Well call me ghetto then.  I have had a wired cycling computer on my bike for nearly all of the 3 years I've owned it.  I have enough other cables running on the outside of my bike that I don't think it's a big deal.  They have wireless models too but the ones that attach to the rear, I've heard, don't seem to work well because of the distance between the computer and the sensors.  I think this is the case more on the cheaper wireless models than the more expensive ones.  One day I might invest in a wireless sensor but it may be a little while longer.  We have one more girl to move on to college and quit paying for parochial tuition before I may make that purchase. 

You are correct that the power meter will provide you much more accurate info for you training than HR.  Someday I hope to have a firm enough grip on everything to be able to afford a power meter.  That being said, a person certainly doesn't have to have power or HR devices to train appropriately hard on the bike.  I just want one of them there fancy computin' devices to use.

The key to both HR and power is the testing phase.  If not done correctly you won't be training in the right zones as prescribed by Jorge's plan.  So, if you want to train with power correctly be ready to puke when you get off the bike after your test.  Then be ready to come close for almost every ride after that.

Jorges is a great plan to get a really, really solid start on learning to train hard on the bike.  This winter however, I will be working with some of the ideas Jeff laid out a few pages ago.  Using longer hard sets rather than some of the short bursts of power to make some of the gains.  Since beginning the winter cycling program I have followed 3-4 of the planned WO's and made some of my own up the balance of the time.  Some of the WO's have been 3x15' @90-100% w/2-5' recovery; 4x10' @95-100% w/2-3 recovery................  They can be pretty brutal if you can dial everything in properly but so far I haven't been able to get everything dialed the way I would like.

Ands since we're talking about it; Jeff, what kind of specific cycling WO's do you do to make the most of the winter session?

As long as you have the right kind of TV and the right connectors it shouldn't be a problem.  You should have a connection that would work to go from the laptop to the TV but not knowing what type of TV you have makes it difficult to say for sure.  If you have HDMI on your TV and USB on your laptop than this is your choice.  I actually may get one of these for us here so we can look a t pics and video on our TV that we have on our computer.

Dressing for what you are calling colder temps, first off is really funny because I would be in shorts, is somewhat of an experiment and after a while you learn what kind of temperature range you can handle wearing certain clothing.  The key is really to be a little cold for the first 2-5 miles and then everything thing seems to regulate well.

Jonathan, that looks like a great hike.  I love that area though I was surprised the ponds aren't more ice covered with the temps we've been having even down here.  How's the heel healing?  When is the JGG Half?  I didn't see it on CoolRunning yet, must be a typo.  If you want another body, I'll run it with you if the times work out.

Dina, many newer laptops already have HDMI so you an just plug the laptop right into the TV, otherwise Dirk has the right adapter.  TrainerRoad is pretty cool; as long as you get a consistent pressure on the tire the readings seem relatively good.  I'm not so sure about the absolute power accuracy, but as long as the power is consistent, you can use it for training and assessing progress.

Karl, dressing for running in colder temps is definitely a highly personalized thing.  My general guidelines are wear a layer on your skin which wicks the sweat away, the next layer is what actually keeps you warm so can be anything from a t-shirt (30s) to a long sweatshirt (20s and below), another layer if it's really cold (like under 10), and a shell or something similar on top for wind or precipitation.  As for legs, I generally stay with just shorts to 25 or so, below that I'll add some sweats if it's not windy or running pants if it is windy.  Gloves if it's windy or under 25, earband under 30, hat under 20. As Dirk says, dress for mile 5, not mile 0, or you'll be way too hot.

mambos - 2012-11-29 9:13 PM Jonathan, those are some great pics! Looks like a great way to spend a holiday weekend! as for me, much better day for the pool! The senior group must take Thursdays off, only me and 1 other guy in the pool. Plenty of room for me to sink to the bottom!

Good deal.  I feel so lucky that the two pools I use are both pretty much unoccupied when I swim.  It's often me and the lifeguard, unless my swimming friend comes along.

I did my 1000 TT yesterday to set my t-pace for winter swimming.  My buddy had an interesting observation.  He said there's about 2 seconds per turn I could pick up by learning to flip turn and swimming all the way to the wall.  Seems like a lot, since that would be almost a minute and a half, but apparently I'm very cautious as I approach the wall.  I also had great luck by drinking water during the session and not pushing off super hard with my toes - no calf cramps at all.  Thanks for the tips.  (He had other observations but that's why I'm swimming this winter).

Do you folks think flip turning is worth learning?  I've followed the 40 page threads on the main page on this topic, but just interested in what you all think.

Dirk I didn't mean the ghetto comment as a slight in anyway and I didn't realize that there are other wired bike computers like that. I assumed that they were mostly wireless so my bad for making that assumption. I am glad to hear that you have not had any issues using the wired computers for the outdoor rides as my concern was also with durability but that does not sound like it's been an issue.

I am glad you weighed in on Jorge's program. I have heard if you do it right it is not an easy program to complete. While I can't say I am looking forward to doing it I really need to improve my bike strength. To me it is the most important thing for me to work on this winter. I figured the power meter would keep me more honest then HR. I'll also keep that comment about puking in mind as well. The other thing you brought up about what Jeff said in regards to Jorge's plan,  I really have been thinking about that as well. I too would be interested in what type of workouts he is doing because I think there would be a lot of benefit in incorporating that into my bike training as well. I think those 3x15's and 4x10's that you are doing sound like they are brutal but would be helpful. I will look to give that a try as well.

Tony, don't sweat Dirk, he's as ghetto as they come.  Any self respecting cyclist has wireless stuff on the road.

I did Jorge last winter and it was great.  The program works if you hit the workouts.  There are a wide variety of intervals, including the longer 20 minute ones, and Jorge really has set up a great progressive plan.  There is also a lot of awesome forum activity on the plan thread to keep you motivated and share the pain.

Not because I didn't love the Jorge plan, but this winter I'm changing to longer sets as well, based on advice from a cycling coach I'm sort of working with.  The staple sessions are 2x20' at 90-95%, and then a rotating set of 5 or 6 x5' @ 110%, 2x12', over/unders (where you fluctuate 1-2 minutes just under FTP and 1-2 minutes just over FTP for the interval), and a 20 minute TT to evaluate progress and set baseline power number for the next loop. It's 4 workouts a week as it's really a cycling centric plan, so making sure you can recovery and hit the numbers consistently and with relatively consistent HR/RPE is key.  Backing off some of the intensity numbers is ok as long as you hit at least 80-85 on the 2x20'.

I'm not sure I can maintain this as my running gets going, but I'm going to stick with it for at least 8 weeks and then evaluate.  Even though running is a huge weakness, I really enjoy riding the most and I'm really liking going faster!  I totally agree with Jeff that the "offseason" is the right time to pick up speed.

Warren thanks for the info those look like some pretty tough workouts that I could benefit from. I am sort of the opposite where running is my strongest discipline. It would be running, biking and then swimming. I am working on the swimming but I am not that bad on the bike. I love riding the bike and I think with some hard work this winter I can turn this into another one my of strengths. I think I need to in order to have any chance of finishing the IM this year.

Warren good info about the fan while on the trainer. I NEVER have the fan on. I just sit there and sweat then think about how I forgot to turn the fan on again. I don't want to turn it on when I'm already sweaty because I get too cold.

Stopped by the bike shop while I was in town today and he had a used tire I can put on my bike for the trainer for just $10!

wbayek - 2012-11-30 8:17 AM

mambos - 2012-11-29 9:13 PM Jonathan, those are some great pics! Looks like a great way to spend a holiday weekend! as for me, much better day for the pool! The senior group must take Thursdays off, only me and 1 other guy in the pool. Plenty of room for me to sink to the bottom!

Good deal.  I feel so lucky that the two pools I use are both pretty much unoccupied when I swim.  It's often me and the lifeguard, unless my swimming friend comes along.

I did my 1000 TT yesterday to set my t-pace for winter swimming.  My buddy had an interesting observation.  He said there's about 2 seconds per turn I could pick up by learning to flip turn and swimming all the way to the wall.  Seems like a lot, since that would be almost a minute and a half, but apparently I'm very cautious as I approach the wall.  I also had great luck by drinking water during the session and not pushing off super hard with my toes - no calf cramps at all.  Thanks for the tips.  (He had other observations but that's why I'm swimming this winter).

Do you folks think flip turning is worth learning?  I've followed the 40 page threads on the main page on this topic, but just interested in what you all think.

My take on flip turns, the are just fun and make me feel more like a swimmer. My back gets ticked if I do them all the time since the bike fall last autumn, but I do them when I can. Learning flip turns helped me be more aware of my head position. I taught myself how to flip turn one fall when race season was over, I was bored and needed and a new challenge.When my back was happy and I flipped turned all the time I had the fastest pool times ever. My race times did not change substantially though .

Thanks for all the info about the cord Dirk and Warren. We have a Vizio flat screen in the basement and my laptop is a Lenovo. I had a cord in my hand at Wal-Mart today that said it was perfect for laptops but it was $20. I thought I better see what we have at home first!

That's awesome.  I've heard about people asking the LBS if they have any wheels which can't be trued as trainer wheels too.  Not sure how riding a slight untrue wheel would be, but that could be another really economical way to get a dedicated trainer setup.

Jonathan, I'd run the 8.

So did your wife willingly go on this trip with you?  Be honest!  If so, she's cool!

Sucking it up and pushing through the blisters is cool...you had no choice I suppose.  So if you didn't complain, you can have some manpoints.  Then going running on the blisters, that's some more points!

But if you had gotten in all your training runs each day while hiking.....you would have gotten a 10x point multiplier!!  And you'd be set for manpoints for the rest of your life. 

BTW, hosting Thanksgiving as newlyweds is momentus.  You two went above and beyond there.

Jeez, he's gonna need a new helmet after this post!

Trust me Tony, I don't take offense to these types of comments. I think they are quite funny.  I think I am fairly thick skinned.  Last year at this time myself, Jonathon, Warren and Jeff were about the only ones remaining in our mentor group that continued to post and we thoroughly trashed each other routinely.  As you may notice from Warrens comment below your post.

As far as Jorge's plan, I would highly recommend you use that one for ease of scheduling.  You will make huge gains in your cycling using that plan and you can get a better handle on how to schedule your own stuff for next season.  You can learn a lot by paying attention to how things are placed into a well planned cycling plan.

Warren, I have nothing but respect for Jorge's program but have said before why I don't think it's geared ideally to triathletes.  I've given my perspective on bike training for triathletes before, so this isn't new....oh and this isn't specifically about your plan it's because a few people have asked about what I'm doing and your thread was a great spring board.

Your longer intervals here are good.  They are, however workouts that are shorter in total duration than I would prescribe to you for building aerobic endurance...I think: was your description of the work above, just 1 workout you repeat 4 times a week?  Because then it's a workout of over 1 1/2 hours each time and that probably would be long enough.

Ask your coach friend if he thinks the winter time is for aerobic endurance building.  The typical prescription for this time of year is 80+% of threshold for long periods of time.

But there are other reasons for training like this and that is because the riding is typically indoors and is very boring.  Sometimes you need intervals to make the workout pass and you need to get off the bike when your mind can't tolerate the boredom anymore.

So as I've said, we are dedicated time trialists.  As such we don't need to train anything but our aerobic engine.  Our job is to ride as close to threshold as we can tolerate for as long as we can tolerate.  Given enough time on the bike doing this we slowly push our threshold closer and closer to VO2 max and that's when you can become a bike monster.

You know you are fit when you can do a 30 mile TT in twice the time you can do a 15 mile TT...(meaning your fatigue resistance is awesome).

But anaerobic is aerobic just like a square is a rectangle.  It's just not true the other way around.  So if you do an interval workout and go way over threshold and recover and repeat...repeat...repeat...for 3 hours, that's a 3 hour aerobic workout and it's one that should have shredded the legs-forcing adaptation.  It's the total time you are spending on the bike that matters most---this time of year for sure (it's debatable as race season approaches).

I just don't want anyone to think that riding twice as hard for half as long is equivalent.  It's like baking your Thanksgiving turkey at 650 degrees for 2 hours.

So what do I do?  I just watch my HR and dare myself to raise it.  I am watching my AVERAGE more than anything.  If I'm hurting, I hold it as long as I can muster up the drive to keep it up, then I relax a little and recover but I watch my HR and as soon as it drops below my average I usually put the resistance back on.  There are 'intervals' in that sense, but they are all by feel with no particular time goals...just the goal of a higher average HR.  If I had a power meter I would use the average power value as my goal rather than the HR.

And BTW, that average power value equates to how far you would have gone on a real bike.  So if you are working out without power and without HR but are riding in the real world, then it's all about the average speed you can maintain....meaning that the quality of the workout should be measured ONLY by the average speed you maintained.

That's a very big simplification of the issue and there will be a lot of people who would not be wrong to push back.  But people have over complicated endurance training over the years and I feel pretty strongly that we can benefit from simplification.

Jeff, I'll try to answer based on what was explained to me.  Let me give you the first take (which may be closer to what you're saying) and then my added restrictions and how it changed.  I know the idea was to raise FTP as much as possible over the winter.

There are essentially 4 workouts a week.  2 rides include long intervals (20+ minutes), at 80-95% FTP efforts.  80% was the preferred number and the min; I pushed and he said 95% is absolute max.  Like you state, the time is more important, but I'm still fighting the "more/faster is better" mentality.  (Keep hammering, I'm old and set in my ways.)  The interval lengths were to top out at 40 minutes, so that would be 80 minutes at that pace inside about a 2 hour ride max, though the rides would more typically be in the 75-90 minute range.  The third ride is either the over/under workout or the 6x5 at just over FTP.  This is sort of like your hard intervals with recovery ride.  The fourth ride was supposed to be a long ride of about 3 hours with self induced speed sessions, probably similar to your the rides you are describing.  This isn't an all out 3 hour TT, but it's not noodling either.

That added up to more time than I think I can spend cycling, so we dropped the 3 hour ride and modified it to another shorter hard ride and maxed the other ones at the 20 minute intervals.  So I'll end up with 2 rides of about 60-90 minutes (with 2x20 interval work sessions) and two more with harder intervals at 60 minutes.  He actually had another easy/recovery ride, but I dumped that one since I still have to run and swim.  There's no doubt that half the time at 650 isn't the same as full time at 325, but if I only have an hour to ride, within reason more intensity helps.

BTW, your rides sound a lot like I do my longer rides outside once the weather permits.

Warren, right now the JGG half is scheduled for Jan. 12th.  You are more than welcome to run it with me...I'll be sticking to a heart rate and seeing where that gets me.

Thanks Jeff....she did go willingly and had a great time.  No issues at all.  She's a real keeper....seriously.

I didn't really complain about the blisters, but was limping pretty bad at the end of the trip.  My achilles was really sore from over stretching it as to not aggravate the blisters as well.  Stupid me.

I put 4 miles in yesterday and my heel is all right.  I bought these blister covers that you just leave on until they fall off and they seem to be helping.  Wearing boots at work really sucks...I tried to take a picture of the blisters, but it didn't really come out.  

My strength training seems to be helping my legs recover from my runs.  I haven't really seen any speed gain from it, but definitely helping fatigue.  Glad to keep that up!

Camping in the snow- dang!

re: flip turns. I have never bothered to learn.  I also don't really care to learn at this point because I don't really see it as a benefit to swimming in the open water I guess!  It might shave me some time off in the pool, but I don't think it'll shave me any time off in a triathlon.  The way I see it, I mark my improvements in the pool in a consistent way- i.e. with no flip turns, so that works for me.

....and uh I'm pretty sure I'm quite a ghetto one when it comes to triathlon....

So I did a 400m TT in the pool today, 7:28.  Can't say I'm spectacularly happy about it, but it's a start!  My splits: 1:46, 1:52, 1:57, 1:51.  Yeah, kind of drastic.  Actually I started off thinking I wanted to do an 800m TT, but for various reasons, I shortened it to 400!  I think this gives me a good baseline though so I can measure future improvements.

I also was looking at my training log from two years ago, and not gonna lie, I was kind of impressed with myself! LOL.  I was faster than I thought!  For an 800m TT I did in the pool in the fall of 2010 I was at 15:10, which for me I'd say is good!  So I'm hoping to get back to that, well better than that!  That was also after a summer full of 10K+ weeks I'm pretty sure though... (I had a 5K OWS I was working towards.)  I know I've said this before, but it was very entertaining for me to go back and look at what I was doing in the past.