Experior's Mentor Group - CLOSED (Page 17)

Crazy Pineapple!  No kidding?!  We had a regular game here for quite a while and I always liked to call that game.

Oh, and any running is running!  Way to get out there.

I'm not, but congrats!  There's nothing like a goal race to motivate!

Reality-check run today.  I was doing a race test and exploded a mile before the end.  I went from running fast to barely able to move in a forwardly direction in a matter of minutes!  Better to experience in training than in the race, I guess!!??  Time to rethink goals...

I hope everyone's weekend went well, I'll check in on training logs tomorrow to see how we're going.

Bill,

Branson, Missouri? I am not doing this one but some of the Columbia Multisport Group might be going. Do you want me to ask the listserve?

I had that happen last year when training. The only thing I could figure caused it was stress since I was under much more stress then usual. I am sure you will figure out what went wrong and correct it with all your research and knowledge.

I had a question. During spin class at the gym they were instructing to point your toes down and really using quads to push the pedals. Last year the coaches from TNT had us say a mantra-"scrape, pull, kick". Our feet were not pointed down, more so flat or heels slightly down. They said this saves the muscles you use most to run with for your run.

I know the spin class is not designed for a run after but just curious if that is what you do or other triathletes do.

Thanks,

Jan

Thanks!  Yes, stress can definitely have an effect on our ability to perform, no doubt.

In my case, I know what happened -- It's pretty simple:  I ran too fast for too long!

That's a great question, Jan.

For the purpose of doing some drills, all sorts of things could have their purpose, so I won't comment on the utility of the specific recommendations that were made for the purpose of specific workouts.

As far as pedaling technique goes, there are some pretty well-established principles, with some latitude for individual preferences and strengths.  It is surprising, alas, that advice is so often given contrary to these principles.  The pros know about them, and they have been pretty well established by careful studies.  Anyway, here goes:

1.  Toes down -- don't do this, at least not to any extreme.  If you have to point your toes too much to pedal, then probably your seat is too high.  If you have to point your toes in order to keep your quads engaged then the seat is definitely too high.  (This advice is coming from someone who is a natural 'toes-down' cyclist; I'm not saying that your foot needs to be completely flat, but the amount of plantarflexion (toe-pointing) should be minimal.  Otherwise, you are putting huge stress on your calf and Achilles and you WILL feel that on the run, not to mention the fact that your calves already have to do a lot of work on the bike; there's no need to make it harder on them.)

2.  'Scrape-pull-kick' -- this is very common advice, and taken in moderation, it is correct.  But most people who try to follow the advice take it way too far.  The only point at which you should be applying any appreciable power to the pedals is during the downstroke (from around 2 o'clock to around 5 o'clock, pushing down with your quads).  The muscles that do those other things (largely your hip flexors and to an extent your hamstrings) are not nearly as strong as your quads.  They just can't keep up, and will tire quickly, for very little gain.  You should use those muscles only as much as it takes to have a smooth stroke.

Think of it this way: when your left leg is pushing down, you want as much of that power to do to the wheels as possible.  If some of it is instead doing the work of moving your 'dead' (in this case, right) leg around, then you are wasting power.  So your right leg does that work on its own.  Doing so entails a slight 'scrape-pull-kick', but just enough to unweight the pedal so that your right leg is not providing any resistance to pedaling.

One way to see what it feels like to do this is to get on the trainer with zero resistance and do one-legged drills. Pay attention to the pressure that you feel on your foot at various points in the stroke, and try to minimize it and even it out.  This is NOT a strength drill.  It is a 'feel' drill, designed to help you feel what it's like to smooth out the stroke with your non-working leg.

Does that make sense?

Note quite.  You do it on every stroke with each leg, only don't try to do anything more than unweight the pedal -- don't try to put any real force into the pedal except during the 'push down' phase of the stroke.

Doing it consciously is very hard, for any length of time.  What you really want to do is work on it from time to time, and eventually it will become natural.  You are really training your brain here to activate your muscles in the right way.  Spinning at a high cadence (low force, high cadence) is one way to do this that works for some people.  The drill that I mentioned (no resistance, one-leg pedaling on the trainer) works for some people.  Don't spend much time on these things, though.  Mostly it will happen just by riding more.

More important is simply that you shouldn't worry about trying to put force into the pedals apart from the down-stroke.  Especially don't try to 'pull up' on the pedals.  (Exception:  if you have to accelerate quickly then doing this for a few strokes is natural and OK.)

I meant to post something about those studies that I mentioned earlier.  I'll take this opportunity to do that.  I found a short article written by some coach (I don't know anything about him or his coaching company) that sums things up pretty nicely, and gives references to the academic literature that I had in mind when I referred to 'studies'.

http://www.wholeathlete.com/assets/documents/pedaling_technique_smartt_09-06.pdf

I'm still contemplating Tri the Midlands on June 25 in Columbia, SC.  First of the season and first ever...

http://www.setupevents.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=event_detail&eventID=1756

First race, if I'm well (I woke up with laryngitis this morning...) will be a big St. Pat's 5K this weekend.  I'm going into it with very tired legs, so I don't expect much, but I promised myself I'd finally do a running race this month, and that's a good chance to do one.

First tri: Downtown Columbia tri (3/27).  I might rest a day for it, but it is not a priority race for me.  I like the race, though, and it's practically in my backyard, so I have to do it!

Rusty, the Tri the Midlands is a really good race.  I did it last year and had a great time.  People will tell you about the 'notorious' hill at the turnaround on the run.  Based on what people were saying, I was prepared for Mt. Kilimanjaro, but it was nothing -- probably only about 200 yards long.  If you run around Columbia, especially downtown, it's the sort of hill you encounter all the time.  And the swim is very very beginner friendly.  Probably one of the gentlest open water swims you could imagine.

By the way, if you haven't actually seen a tri 'live in action', the Downtown Columbia one (also a Setup Events race) is a great one to watch because it takes place in pretty tight quarters -- three loops on the bike, and you can see the runners leave, come back after the turnaround, and finish.  Plus the transition area is right there.  Basically you can watch a bit of the swim (in the pool), then walk outside and watch T1 and some of the bike leg, then walk 50 yards up the hill and watch the run and finish.  It is one of the more spectator-friendly courses, and you might learn a lot by watching.  You'll see all sorts of folks there, from the very very fast to the nervous first-timers and everything in between.  Watch the nervous first-timers finish with a smile on their faces!  It'll make you realize (if you aren't convinced yet) that yes, you can do this.

Hope everyone is well.  Feeling good, particularly since the forecast is calling for mid 80's on Friday and Saturday here in Columbia, SC.  I know Michael is pleased!

I have been doing all of my bike time in a spin class up to this point.  I'm feeling good about this as my Monday instructor is an Elite level female triathlete.  It's very rewarding as we are typically getting in approx. 13.68 mi. (22 km) over a 45 minute session.

My question is for Michael or the group:

I'm ready to get a pair of road shoes as a bike is probably not far off.  Would you get a tri specific road shoe (e.g., Shimano TR31) or something else?  I would like to be able to clip in to the SPD (2 hole cleat) pedals on the spin bike until I transition to the road.  I would also rather not have to buy several pairs of shoes with everything else the sport requires.  I would appreciate any thoughts.  

Have an awesome weekend!

Rusty 

Great!  Very cool that your son is doing it with you.

Rusty, yes buy tri-specific shoes.  You can do anything with them that you can do with road shoes, and they have the advantage of the single velcro strap for easy on and easy off.  This helps even if you are not going to do the flying mount or dismount.  With road shoes, you're going to have multiple straps to deal with, and possibly a ratchet as well.  With possibly cold hands and feeling slightly disoriented after the swim, that can be a problem.  Keep it simple!

I recently had an ear infection, but Doc didn't think it was from swimming because apparently swimmer's ear is normally in the outer ear whereas mine was middle ear.

Anyway, Doc did say that one thing to do is be sure to clear the ears of water right after every swim.  I just use a bottle of the stuff you can get at the drug store.  (There are recipes out there to make your own, but it's cheap and one bottle lasts a season for me -- lol I guess I need to swim more!) 

Some say that ear plugs help keep water out of your ear.  I don't find them to be very effective, but some do.

I actually won real money in my race today.  First time.  Woo hoo!

I hope everyone is having the same gorgeous weather than we're having here.

Wow! Congrats and awesome job! All of your knowledge, research and hard work at training really has paid off! Was this a tri? I think you mentioned a 5K? can't remember.

The swimming lessons are off to a good start, I think. The swim instructor has a lot of experience swimming, ocean swimming, triathlons of all distances and teaching. He is really awesome-had me get out of the pool and practice the stroke, which is different than I was taught by TNT instructors. His emphasis was the hand is the first thing in the water and the first thing out of the water. Reach deep and rotation starts from the stroke, arm like a paddle in a canoe, push with the hand not under the body, which is what I was taught before but arm pointing at bottom of pool, body rotated and continue to push with hand, elbow slightly to the side, hand out of the water at thigh level and quickly around to start again. No high elbows, which was greatly emphasized from previous coaches. Arm not straight but relaxed somewhat, push comes from pecs and traps. He said kind of like a windmill, turning body, reaching deep, other arm hand pushing out of water and back around to reach deep on the next stroke. He said we will work on my kick but for now he said to keep my feet closer together and kick comes from thighs not feet and there will be a slight bend in the knee like kicking a soccer ball-last coaches said straight legs.

I felt the power of the water and felt some speed and was very excited but yesterday when I went to swim, I found I could not go more than 50-100 yards at a time, so out of breath and tired. I am going to swim again today. Wondering if his methods are good, but I have paid for 10 lessons so I guess I am going to learn it.

Also-first race of the year will be Shakespeare's Pizza Maxtrax Dualthlon here in Columbia, Mo on April 2. First tri St. Anthony's Triathlon May 1st in St. Petersburg Florida.

I am taking my bike on the road for the first time this year today since it is to be in the 70's, Yeah!

Congrats again Michael!

Jan

Thanks.  It was a 5K -- St. Patrick's Day race (a few days late -- they always do it on the weekend).  Race report is here.  (Which reminds me -- and I should have done this myself yesterday:  it would be great if whenever one of us in the group does a race, we post a link to the race report here in this thread.  It's a great way to give one another support and 'virtual experience'.  One can learn a lot from reading the race reports of others.)

Sounds like good stuff from your swim coach.  Stick with it.  I'm not surprised that you were gassed quickly after implementing so many changes to your stroke.  It will take a while to adjust, but you will adjust, and most likely be stronger and fast for it.

I look forward to hearing about your races.

And have a great ride today!

Awesome race!!!  Well done Michael!!  I read the race report and saw that your pace was 5:55 per mile.  That is amazing to me.  Even when I was in the Army I could only run a little under 7 minute miles and only for two miles.  So my question is, when you got off of the couch and started training, what kind of times did you have?  How about after 4-6 months?  How long has it taken for you to get to where you are?  Just curious because it will give me some reference based on where you started and where you are now.  I am sure that the improvements have come slowly over time and with a lot of consistent training.  I have looked at your logs and you are definitely putting in the time to reap the benefits.  It is a motivation for me to see what you do and know that if I continue to train that I will  continue to improve.

Again, congratulations on doing well and cashing in the race!!!

Great race Michael

love the race report. So true about the champs and high school kids who fade after 300 meters or 1/2 mile. See them in all the 5 and 10 km races. Awesome job on a top 10 thats fantastic. Only a dream of me going sub 19 min anymore, great time.

Started my 16 week OLY program this week. Structure is what I needed. Most of my training this time will be geared to a PB of under 2:35 maybe a top 5 in my age group (50-54). Lots of threshold and speed  work. Feel great about getting back at it consistently. Looking forward to the weeks to come.

Train well all

Thanks!

To answer your question, here's a brief history with a few comments:

Between ages 37 and 40 I tried several times to start running.  I failed each time, usually after only a few weeks, sometimes after just one run.    I also tried taking up soccer a few times, but wasn't particularly good at it, and I got injured.  Three times.  Meanwhile, I was drinking like a fish and overweight.

I got serious at age 40 (May 2008) and started running.  When I first started, my all-out "I'm not sure I will live through this" pace for one mile was around 9:45.  I mostly ran 1-3 miles per run, at paces well above that.

I think I've got some genetic help, because I improved pretty quickly.  (Losing a bunch of weight cutting out 99% of the alcohol didn't hurt either.)  I ran very consistently (I was not yet into tris, so I just ran), 5-7 days per week, early on 1-3 miles each time, but slowly and steadily building.  Over the summer and fall of 2008 I kept building mileage and getting faster.  In December I ran a 3:21 marathon on a flat cool course.

As I said, my result is probably not typical.  Yes, I worked very hard and consistently, but I suspect that some unused genetic potential was also coming out during that summer and fall -- too bad I was pre-occupied with self-destruictive behavior when I was younger!

Over the course of the next year, I was very focused on triathlon, and specifically IMKY, and did not get much faster as a runner.  After IMKY I focused on running again and managed a 1:28 half marathon last spring.  Then more or less the same thing happened -- not much speed increase over the summer, but over this past winter and spring I've been getting faster again and I'm shooting for <1:25 in a hilly half marathon in a few weeks.

I don't know what lesson you can take for yourself from this little history except that if you stay consistent and focused, you WILL see improvements of one sort or another.  My own experience has been that it is very difficult to predict their magnitude.  I can go for weeks or even months seeing very little gain, and then go through a period of a couple of weeks where it seems like I make a big leap.

The variable that you can control here is consistency.  Hmmm, I think I've heard that somewhere before... 

Thanks Dave.  I totally agree about the structure thing.  I'm floundering a bit right now precisely because I'm not really following a plan.  Maybe your reminder here has given me the kick I need to get back on track...

Have fun with the plan!