GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!! (Page 17)

ARTHUR -

I was all wrong about what I thought the NB800 might be when I wondered if it was decended from their stability peformance trainer. I just searched it, and found that it is its own unique critter, a species truly unto itself.

One description of it caught my attention, describing the midfoot as broad and relatively flat. Before searching it I gave some thought to Newtons and the Saucony Sinister, and thinking that the flex spots for both of those aren't where I would expect them to be - and wondered if having the flexing areas further back is what might define a good midfoot or forefoot shoe.

For Newtons and the Sinister, the y do not easily flex under the forefoot. The Newtons, in fact, when you try to flex them longitudinally (bending them in half by compressing front to back), flex closer to the back than the front. And the Sinisters have a "flexion plate" that runs the length of the shoe, so it also doesn't flew readily. And now along comes the 800 with a follow-up to the description above that says that it allows the foot to flatten more on contact, so maybe that's the concept that makes a shoe conducive to midfoot striking -- that the goal is supposed to be a solid plant-and-push-oof from a rigid midfoot.

Intuitely, I'm not quite there yet. I may still be predisposed to thinking of forefoot running and what I feel would be a flex point closer to the metatarsal heads (think the "fat pad" of the forfoot) that would allow the foot to roll through that point en route to the forfoot. But I guess it doesn't - or shouldn't - work like that.

I talked to a Newton rep at an expo last July, and hen he watched me run he said I had a tendency to "cat-scratch" - that is, land too far forward and then have to almost scratch backwards as I rolled off my forefoot. His advice to me was to land as fully as possible on the lugs -- which is theequivalent, I'm thinking, of the "broad and relatively flat" part of the NB800, or the sense of a very stable alnding surface on the Saucony Sinister.

One thing about NB800 is a comment from a user that the length is long, which she explained by saying that she normally wears an 8, but had to go to a 7.5. That's fairly dramatic, so I hope either that women's sizing is different than men's.....or that you saw that comment yourself and ordered a half-size smaller!

I have to re-think what makes a shoe conducive to midfoot running. I hvae mostly just taken it for granted, but i can see that I don't have a good grasp of the biomechanics of a midfoot-striker, and the features that would augment or complement that type of foot-strike.

M -

Any advice on running shoes, you ask? Ohhhh, yeah!

The short of it is to take your time getting the right shoe, and try to find a reputable running shoe store. Mall stores, such as FootLocker, don't count, and neither do places like Wal-Mart!

Ideally, you will find a store that has a treadmill on which you will be videotaped as you run -- maybe without shoes, maybe with a pair of "neutral" shoes. (A lab in Ottawa does it barefoot initially, while the two times I have had it done at a Fleet Feet store it has been with a neutral shoe.)

If you can't get videotaped, then a committed running shoe store where someone can examine your foot and watch you walk, then run, is the next best thing. But the key here is finding somewhere where the staff have been trained in running biomechanics - or can at least determine your arch type and whether you over-pronate or under-pronate, These are the essential starting points, and if someone bypasses those then they are not doing a thorough job.

It isn't necessary to spend big bucks on running shoes, although looking for bargains is usually a dangerous path to follow. Most of the major companies have a range of price-points for a given foot type, and while some people will go all-out for shoes with all the bels and whistles technology can offer, that isn't truly necessary.

As an example, for someone like me who needs a "neutral" shoe, Saucony can oufit me in the following: Triumph ($130), Echelon ($110), Ride ($95), Sinister ($90). I have owned the last two, never the first two.

The major players are Saucony, Asics, Mizuno, New Balance, Adidas, Brooks and NIke, and there are other reputable running shoe companies - Puma, Newton, Karhu among them - who make great running shoes. Try to find one of those companies, at the very least!

Do you know your arch type? Have you ever taken the "wet test" to study your arch (high, medium, or low)? If so, let me know and that'll be a good starting point. And ogo to www.roadrunnersports.com, click on shoes, and then find "Shoe Dog" and follow the prompts. Let me know what Shoe Dog recommends, okay? (At the very least, it is just sort of fun to work through the questionnaire.)

Further questions? Fire away!

M again -

Unless someone knows your foot type and/or understands your running biomechanics, don't follow their advice about a specific model they love and swear by. I wrote an incredulous letter to Title Nine Sports a few years ago after their cataolg (quality women's sportswear) offered ONE running shoe, Asics 2100 series. Their habit was to include blurbs from staff members in support of gear, and the one for that shoe read soemthing like "Megan R. logs 40 miles a week in this shoe and wouldn't ever wear anything else". Well, that shoe is a stability shoe and obviously works for Megan R., but if anyone with high arches or severe flat feet tries that shoe, they are very likely to be injured in short order. I just thought it was unconscionable to offer only one model of running shoe and amke it sound like the holy grail for feet.

ANYHOW.....let me know what you know about your feet. And somehting I neblected to mention last post is the wear pattern on your current running shoes (daily shoes or work shoes don't count). If you have some running shoes that you wear only for running, study them and see where you have worn away the initial tread "detail" or where the shoe is actually worn down. And we'll go from there.

Running-shoe fetishists of the world, unite! (As opposed to "untie"? )

Edited by midlifeinsanity 2010-05-23 7:40 PM

LISA L -

I see your quandary with oly goals and sprint commitments! That is a tough call, deciding between LoneStar for you and your niece's fiance's sprint the following weekend. I'm sure you've thought of the following scenario, and while I know it isn't perfect, it is something to think about....maybe.

You have a fair bit of experience already, and you don't mention injuries in your posts so I'm assuming you train with enviable impunity. And seeing as how your run base is already quite solid, you should be able to be ready for Lonestar, at the very least.

Is your niece's fiance likley to be fast-ish, or is he just looking to finish? If it's the later, then one thing to think about is doing Lonesatr at your pace with your goals in mind, and then the next weekend mostly accompany him during the race, or simply treat it as a training day that you paid for and that involved back-to-back-to-back bricks. In other words, you wouldn't be pushing any limits -- unless you felt strong enough to do so. Just a thought!

Your approach is very methodical, and you're working well at pushing the running now, and then joining the Masters group, and then accompanying your husband on his rides for MS 150. Have you posted your proposed '10 schedule on an earlier page? If so, tell me and I will track it down. I'm very curious to see what is in your sights, as you're poising yourself to be in good shape for the season!

Y'know, i couldn't get comfortable in the Saucony Ride, either. I wanted to make them work, but as I remember it was a problem of "clunkiness". They have a fairly wide midfoot, and maybe what I was feeling was just too much shoe-surface coming in conavct with the ground. Plus, they had way more heel than I require, so that was a negative. Given that you've been happy with Nike, which tend to run narrow, and your shoes have been Moto 6, which I think are known for being responsive, I'm not surprised that you too were unable to make the Rides work for you. Let me know how the Vomeros do as you increase the mileage, okay?

M -

Yikes! Those were pretty severe and archaic "emedies" from your doctor! I cant imagine a doctor nowadays recommending walking on the ouside edges of your feet and having your toes curled under. I can't help thinking that it might solve one problem, but create two or three others.

Even though the above may sound a bit flippant, it really isn't. And keeping on the theme of Serious, I wonder....just wonder....if maybe what happened was that despite your flat feet you actually learned to walk/run on the outsides of your feet, thus making you a functional under-pronator (some call it "supinating"). How young were you when you were encourgaed to wlak on the outsides of your feet, toes curled under? (Makes me think of Chinese foot-binding, almost....)

The majority of flat-footed people will over-pronate, and for many of them it is quite marked. But there is a tiny minority of flat-footed folk who under-pronate -- and you might be one of them! When you look at wear patterns on your running shoes, see how much of the lateral (outside) part of each shoe is worn down. I'm REAL curious about your situation, now that I know what your childhood doctor had you do!

STEVE A -

Mike gave you a great answer for your heart rate question, and I won't pretend I can do better than he did!

But as for what he said about the usefulnes of Z3, well, it applies in your case. Unless you changed things around when I wasn't looking, you have St. George in May, Vineman 70.3 in July, Nautica oly in Sept., and if you're feeling frisky by then, Silverman in November. So, much of your efforts at 3 of those 4 will be at Z3, therefore it is worthwhile to train there as well.

I agree with what Mike says about the 220 determinant, as there is just way too much play with it. Have you ever done a LT lab test? (Do you like to suffer? ) If you can, do it! The information is indisputable (as long as you don't bail on a session or deliberatly hold back), and that is the best of all worlds. (Having said that, i haven't had mine done in about 8 years, so I,m clearly overdue.) (On the other hand, i don't train with a HRM anymore [should start, however], so a LT test is of less use for me.)

A step down from that is one of the "field tests". These are pretty simple to do (and don't hurt a hundredth as much as a LT test!) and if you repeat them a few times the results can be quite accurate. Let me know if you need the protocol for a field test or two.

STEVE A again -

Going back a few days ----

Congrats on a terrific ride 'n' run last weekend! See, I was just being an over-cautious old man last week when I was tentatively advising you to rest until you were feeling much, much better. (OMG, does that mean I've become just like my Nana used to be???? )

That is very telling what you say about your efforts when you are riding in the front as oppsoed to riding behind, and that Jsason is the opposite. (Where did you say he lives? Las Vegas? Too bad you two aren't closer to each other.) I train solely alone, so I hav no experience with group or even partner rides. But the way you explain your response to being in front and then in back, it makes sense to me that you prefer the front; "grinding" is not a preferable way to ride or run!

For now, i think it's woise to keep your bricks small. And even as St.George approaches, you don't want to be doing tok many of the longer ones. While they will maybe work to build your confidence, underneath they might be working to break you down some. The odd long one this far out isn't going to hurt, and you should feel very pleaszed that you managed to pull it off so successfully so soon after those few weeks of feeling crappy and losing weight. Nicely executed!

STEVE A once more -

Back in the day when I was a HRM kind of guy, I learned pretty quickly to err on the side of RPE when it didn't jive with my HR. Initially I did this for the sake of survival, but later it became a matter of intelligent training - for the reasons Mike gave you. In fact, I'm sure I learned that lesson when training under Erik Cagnina of D3 for a few years!

Having Erik there for me at times like that was huge, as it was his program I was following and I pretty much needed to hear it from him that workouts weren't worth struggling and straggling through if they were severely compromised for whatever reason (and you listed several of the Usual Suspects).

Related to this, and also learned from Erik, was that it is usually good to "let a workout go" -- unless it is an absolutely key one. That is, if you are sick or overworked or the smog is insufferable on Tuesday and Wednesday and you miss a scheduled ride and run, don't try to cram them in Thursday or Friday. Do that and you might end up with four half-baked workouts, as opposed to two solid ones. BUT, if one of the missed workouts is a really key one, then fit it in when you return to action -- but scrap the workout of lesser importance, rather than trying to piggyback the two. If a workout is truly key, then it shouldn't be compromised by another workout of lesser value.

Got a team table, bare bones but it works.

oh, if your name doesn't work it is because you have not friended me or your profile is not public so I can't get your memberid.

GrooveTime Group Steve
CathyD BigDH ShunShun DeputyDawg Lufferly Latestarter lmcvetty SAquavia Dwayne FoxfireTX	thall0672 m68114 hooslisa smarx Hepeoc LadyNorth TriD64 rcotter ThatGirl Augeremt
link to the forum pg1

Edited by BigDH 2009-12-31 7:32 PM

Whew! Am I getting caught up yet? This is a tough row to hoe! (Well, that's what I get for lagging behind for a few days, I guess --- left in the dust of the GrooveTime! masses..... )

Edited by midlifeinsanity 2010-05-23 7:41 PM

Edited by midlifeinsanity 2010-05-23 7:42 PM

Darren -

Coupla things:

(1) Thank you for the team table ---- although I'm not able to get anywhere with it. This is likely a combination of my computer being dial-up, and me being functionally illiterate, computerally-speaking. I will keep attempting it, using all 2.37 tricks in my bag of cyber tricks.

(2) I wasn't thinking so much about hard-core speed sessions and murderous track workouts, but more along the lines of fartleks, short hill repeats, and maybe the odd modified tempo run. I do a lot of my middle distance work as tempo runs, and I guess my modification is that I keep it a bit more below my perceived AT zone than might be recommended by many proponents of tempo runs. I'm also more inclined to just launch into them, rather than do a 10-minute warm-up. But thinking about it, it varies quite a bit and often I will do both a decent warm-up and cool-down.

(3) I certainly respect your reticence about spped work, as almost always I will mess something up when I try it. I have said before that I am hardly bionic, and speed work tends to do things to me that don't usually happen with longer, steadier efforts. I'm not a complete slouch about speedwork -- but I sure am cautious!!

Groovesters!

It's now 30 minutes into 2010, and I hope you are all being safesafesafe. Anybody have any big plans for workouts later today?

I ran today, so I'm not sure I'll repeat that. I will probably climb back onto the bike in some capacity, either rollers or the trainer, and I will likely do this while watching the Bruins game from - of all places - Fenway Park. My father might've liked to see this, as he took me to scores of Bruins and Red Sox games. I think he would've gotten a hoot out of watching the two worlds meet as one, sort of!

It's off to bed with me. G'night!

Am I the only one up so early on New Year's Day?

According to my BT training plan I'm supposed to do a 40 minute ride today. But seeing how the gym is closed and we have wet snow and rain today, I'll be pushing it off to tomorrow. So it's a rest day for me today!

Tracey

TRACEY -

I've been up for a while, but it took me some time to get down here. I didn't figure on too many people making BT a top priority on New Year's Day -- and I guess I'm right!

Anyhow, YOU are the winner of the GrooveTime Early Bird on New Year's Day Award! While this doesn't have the same buzz as does the Nobel Peace Prize or the Pulitzer Prize for Literature, it nevertheless is highly regarding amongst those who value its existence. Congratulations!

Enjoy the rest today. And watch the Bruins game!

Good Morning,

I AM up but not moving too quickly yet.   Although I didn't do any heavy duty stuff this past week it is more than I have done in a while.   Will just stick to yoga today.  

STEVEB, - a couple of things - did you have any thoughts on the computrainer?  

With trying to keep up with the yoga as well as tri training, I am having a problem trying to find a recovery day.   Is it really necessary?  

Lastly, I did a short run yesterday (details on my log)  and was wondering what you would recommend for a run on Sunday.   Don't seem to have any ill effects from it.   I would have preferred to run Sat, but we are going out of town to x-country ski.    Thanks.  

Happy new year to all GrooveTime! group members!!!

STEVE - Going for my long run today. Weather is perfect for it. Will be running about 75 minutes at 125-140 HR (really easy). Just waiting to digest the lunch before I'm off.

Also trying to use the holiday today to start planning races for the season. Hopefully I'll have a tentative calendar by tonight.

Arthur

TRACEY again -

After I finished the last post, I had a nagging feeling that I had neglected one from a few days ago, so I went back and there it was - from Tuesday!

Nice work on the breathing! Finding the pocket....one goggle out...both are excellent developments. So much of swimming (at least for me) is developing a sense of where I am in the water and what exactly every swim-involved part of me is doing. I don't golf, but I've heard it said that swimming and golfing are like in that there are so many "checklists" that need to be gone through in order to make sure that form is correct. So, in time, it will happen that you will just know when your head is turning perfectly as you breathe, and you won't need to actually think about pockets and goggles.

A tip for keeping the lower body up is to "swim downhill". The TI people use this term, and along with it "pressing the buoy" -- the buoy in this case being your lung-filled torso. The idea is simple, and involves the feeling of leaning on your chest. The result should be that the only parts of you that are visble will be the back of your head and your rear end.

So, when Arthur was telling you about one-goggle-out, and grabbing for the pocket of air, those also help in swimming downhill because at the very least you are NOT lifting your head as you breathe. Each time that happens - and especially when the head lift involves a straight-ahead look - the hips and legs drop dramatically, resulting in drag.

One good drill to try for this is to do a length just kicking and with your arms at your sides. Picture yourself being as laterally compressed as possible, and swimming through a narrow tube. But mostly, work at "pressing the buoy" -- leaning on your chest, swimming "downhill". You should be able to feel this sensation quite readily. And when you come up for air, doing it by lifting your head, you should feel a change -- that will be the drag from your hips and legs sinking. Once you have some air, settle back into swimming downhill through the tube. It should be a neat feeling as your body adjusts and repositions into a position that seems effortless.

As you do this drill, think a little bit about your kick. It should be small, just a flutter, enough to keep you moving smoothly -- after all, you're swimming downhill, so no need for a big motor back there! Try not to bend your knees, generating the kick from your hips instead. BUT! If this kick stuff just confuses things, scrap it and keep your focus on swimming downhill, pressing the buoy, leaning on your chest, and swimming through the tube.

Swim improvements should be done in small increments, and I probably should not have put that part in about the kick. That is, swim drills work best when they are as simple as possible -- keeping that checklist small. But I'll keep it thre, just so I'll know that I've mentioned it!

Finally, expect that by the end of a length you will be gasping for air, or at least out of breath when you touch the wall. As the goal here is to swim downhill, you should not be lifting your head for air too often, as that will disrupt your downhill progress. (There's an alternative here, but I won't mention it now.)

Finally-finally, a quick answer on your running speed question is to think about your cadence and keeping it fairly high -- short strides and a brisk turnover. On your next run, count how many times one foot hits the ground in a minute. Tell me what that number is. (And maybe do it 2 or 3 times, just to get a wee bit of a sample size.) Don't AIM for anything right now, but just run normally and see what your cadence is. And we'll go from there!

Tracey! -

Happy new year to you. Glad I could be of help! Swimming is definitely tough, but once your technique improves, it gets a LOT easier... The pool I use here was unexpectedly closed yesterday, so I guess I'll have to swim both tomorrow and monday.


EVERYBODY: Just a quick poll, how many swim sessions a week do you do?

STEVE - Do you think swimming should be counted as a form of resistance training, and therefore spaced out in relation to "real" resistance work? I'd love to have your thoughts on that.

Arthur

Happy New Year, Arthur.

I swim 3 times a week and when I can finally get to open water, will often swim 4 times.    For me, I have to keep the frequency up.   Having learned to swim so late in life, I find that if I am away from the water very long, my swimming really suffers.   Hopefully as the years go by that will change.  

My swim volume is 3500 - 5500 meters per week depending on the training period so the greater frequency also helps me get it done.  

Anne

ARTHUR -

Swim times a week? Three when it's off-season and I'm restricted to pools. From early June until mid-October it will be four or five, virtually all open water. (That drops to about 3X a week once October arrives.)

ARTHUR again -

Enjoy the long run, and best of luck with your schedule! I am not a decisive person even at the best of times, but I have become atrocious with my schedule. A large part of that is because over the years I have "eaten" a lot of race fees -- sign up early, get injured late, have to bail. So, one of my goals is to choose wisely, which seems to translate into not jumping into a race eight months before it actually takes place. In my younger, more impetuous days, I would sign up for everything by about now, and there would be my schedule, carved in stone. Voila! Nowadays, though.......

ARTHUR once more -

What fabulous prize will I receive by answering your question about swimming as resistance training??

That is a great question -- and one to which I do not have a quick, well-practiced response. I will have to think about it for a while, and along with that will be to figure out exactly what I DO consider to be resistance training. My immediate thought was that swimming is not resistance training.....but I really will have to ponder that for a while.

Some people would consider it resistance work when they use cords in the outdoor pool, so if that is in fact resistance work, and if it is supposed to simulate actual swimming, then, ergo ipso, does that mean that swimming itself is resistance? Water is not an especially yielding medium to pass through, and certainly resists ---- but what I have to think about is swimming in relation to resistance training along the lines of working with weights.

Hmmmmmm...........