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2009-06-18 8:38 AM
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Subject: RE: When you diet, do you only look at calories?
Joblin - 2009-06-18 7:48 AM

WOW thats a very low calorie intake. Good that it works for you but I know for a fact I could not perform on that. I also create a calorie deficit of about 7000 a week by burning at least 3000 a day and eating around 2000 (some days more and some days less). And I eat at least 50% carbs.



How do you get to such a high BMR?  I would have to add another 1.5 hours a day to workouts at a minimum to get to that level.  I am struggling to find the time to workout now for 1 to 1.5 hours per day.

 



2009-06-18 8:49 AM
in reply to: #2226197

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Subject: RE: When you diet, do you only look at calories?

Batlou - 2009-06-18 1:38 PM
Joblin - 2009-06-18 7:48 AM

WOW thats a very low calorie intake. Good that it works for you but I know for a fact I could not perform on that. I also create a calorie deficit of about 7000 a week by burning at least 3000 a day and eating around 2000 (some days more and some days less). And I eat at least 50% carbs.



How do you get to such a high BMR?  I would have to add another 1.5 hours a day to workouts at a minimum to get to that level.  I am struggling to find the time to workout now for 1 to 1.5 hours per day.

 

MY BMR was tested at 2045 a day and I am wearing a Bodybugg since 5 weeks and that is prety much roughly the same what the Bodybugg gives me. Including work that puts me around 2300 calories burned a day plus my workouts. I exercise about 9-11 hours a week.

How heavy are you and what do you think your BMR is?

 

 

 

2009-06-18 8:56 AM
in reply to: #2210619

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Subject: RE: When you diet, do you only look at calories?
What's a body bugg?  My BMR with no exercise is roughly 1800-2000.  This number is based off my own personal experience the last year and half and finding that if I breach 1800-2000 on a day with no exercise I will gain weight.  According to my Garmin based on my weight, age, etc. a typical workout will burn around 500 calories.  This is how I arrived at 2400.  It is only a estimate and since our BMR is not static that is really all you can hope for.
2009-06-18 9:15 AM
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Subject: RE: When you diet, do you only look at calories?

Batlou - 2009-06-18 1:56 PM What's a body bugg?  My BMR with no exercise is roughly 1800-2000.  This number is based off my own personal experience the last year and half and finding that if I breach 1800-2000 on a day with no exercise I will gain weight.  According to my Garmin based on my weight, age, etc. a typical workout will burn around 500 calories.  This is how I arrived at 2400.  It is only a estimate and since our BMR is not static that is really all you can hope for.

A Bodybugg measures your calorie burn throughout the day. I wear it 24 hours and it is pretty accurate except for biking. Here is some info: www.bodybugg.com

At my weight I burn around 800-900 calories an hour running, about 500-600 an hour swimming and roughly 400-500 an hour biking.

2300 x 7 = 16.100 basic burn + ~ 7000 from exercising puts me at 23.100 a week.

I eat about 2000-2200 a day which is ~ 14.700 calories for food and that gives me a deficit of 8400 calories a week.

You can also get the BMR tested at a lot of places. You might want to check that out.

BTW; BMR is basic metabolism rate of what you would burn if you would just be lying in bed all day doing nothing. You still have to add some calories for your normal working lifestyle in.

 

 

 



Edited by Joblin 2009-06-18 9:17 AM
2009-06-18 9:34 AM
in reply to: #2210619

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Subject: RE: When you diet, do you only look at calories?
I understand that it's my Base Metabolic Rate at rest but I am also tied to a desk all day long.  Other than getting up for Meetings, Coffee/Water or bathroom I am pretty sedintary during working hours. 

I am pretty close on my estimation because I know that if I hit all of my goals and I create a estimated 7000 calorie deficit based on a 2400 BMR I will drop 2 lbs.  I did drop 4 a couple of weeks ago and quite honestly I have no explination for that.  If I look at my trend over time I have averaged 1.45 lbs per week.  The only other time I dropped that much was the during the first couple of weeks of dieting which is typical for most people as our cells will tend to release water in response to the change in diet.
2009-06-18 9:38 AM
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Subject: RE: When you diet, do you only look at calories?

Batlou - 2009-06-18 2:34 PM I understand that it's my Base Metabolic Rate at rest but I am also tied to a desk all day long.  Other than getting up for Meetings, Coffee/Water or bathroom I am pretty sedintary during working hours. 

I am pretty close on my estimation because I know that if I hit all of my goals and I create a estimated 7000 calorie deficit based on a 2400 BMR I will drop 2 lbs.  I did drop 4 a couple of weeks ago and quite honestly I have no explination for that.  If I look at my trend over time I have averaged 1.45 lbs per week.  The only other time I dropped that much was the during the first couple of weeks of dieting which is typical for most people as our cells will tend to release water in response to the change in diet.

So do you think it would make a difference if you consume your daily calories by low carb or by a normal ratio where carbs would be about 50%?

 



2009-06-18 9:57 AM
in reply to: #2210619

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Subject: RE: When you diet, do you only look at calories?

No, going back to my original response I still consider the first law of thermodynamics to hold true. 

"Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only change forms."

This means that if you consume 1500 calories and you require 3000 you have created a deficit of 1500 calories.  It does not matter if that deficit was created because you ate a diet of nothing but animal lard, pasta or ice-cream. 

I like to low carb because my body performs better by eliminating the carbs...for now.  I will eventually begin to introduce more carbs back into my diet as I get close to my goal (18 lbs away as of this morning).  When I eat carbs, as you know from your own experience, cravings all but disappear.  By low-carbing it forces my Liver to go to work and produce glucose from protein.  This stream of glucose is slow and steady and provides just enough of what I need to function.  On a 50% carb diet my liver will stop producing glucose and glucose will be supplied as part of my dietary consumption.  For some that have been eating healthy for a long time this is not such a big deal but for me personally it begins a cycle that is like a roller coaster.  Eat, blood sugar spikes then crashes which mean I am now hungry again so I eat again...and so on. 

On a different note I recently read an article published in the New England Journal of Medicine that cited a long term study of thousands of people that were put on Low-Carb vs. Low-Cal diets for 10 years.  While there was not much difference during the study regarding Heart Disease, Cancer and other ailments.  They did a follow up on these patients 20 and 30 years after and found that those people that participated in the low-carb portion had a substantially lower overall mortality rate than the low cal group.

It is believed that the damage that high levels of glucose in your bloodstream does to the vascular system may not be apparent immediately.  It will eventually yield a higher mortality rate from vascular diseases.


2009-06-18 10:23 AM
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Subject: RE: When you diet, do you only look at calories?
That first law of thermodynamics gets thrown around a lot when we talk about calories. If you want to read a different interpretation of it and why it DOES matter where your calories come from, read Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes. I do not believe weight loss is as simple as calories in/calories out for some people. If you eat too many carbs and your insulin levels are always high, your body will not use your stored fat for energy. It doesn't have to if there is readily available glucose. You can change how your body uses fat for fuel by not allowing your insulin levels to stay elevated by eating less carbs and/or playing with meal timing.
I am the leanest I have ever been in my adult life, and it's not from triathlon training. It's from eating the right foods and finding a way of eating that is sustainable and fulfilling to me. And from exercising a lot less and not eating many carbs outside of fruits and veggies (and dark chocolate, ha!).
JMHO...take it or leave it. But I am determined to help people lose weight without the struggles of dieting if I can.
Jessica
2009-06-18 10:31 AM
in reply to: #2210619

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Subject: RE: When you diet, do you only look at calories?
Jessica, you are 100% correct and like you I have found that low carb is a very sustainable WOE.  On that note I am going to go eat.
2009-06-18 2:07 PM
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Subject: RE: When you diet, do you only look at calories?
I hesitate to get involved in this conversation because I'm not anti-low-carb but I find it an extremely hard way of eating due to a life long habit of higher carbs just for me personally... I'm not one of those who doesn't understand the WOE I just find it challenging.

But my question here is why does it matter if you get the energy from the glucose storage versus fat? If you have excess glucose isn't it going to store as fat? So you burn it off and use it instead, and supplement it with fat stores. Obviously I'm losing weight with about a 50-60 percent carb intake so I'm also burning off fat for energy as well as the glucose.

Maybe it makes more of a difference the closer you are to goal weight?

I'm also a body bugg user and right now I'm trying to keep a fairly aggressive deficit going (not long term just for a few more weeks because of a looming Tri coming up) so I'm aiming to burn 3000-3500 a day with an intake of 1500-2000. This brings me to about an estimated 3lb loss per week. (Yes, I know this is more then is recommended for my weight but again I stress this is just temporary for a few more weeks)

Edited by IdealMuse 2009-06-18 2:17 PM
2009-06-18 2:24 PM
in reply to: #2210619

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Subject: RE: When you diet, do you only look at calories?

Please don't hesitate as I enjoy the debate in an open forum.  Challenging our assumptions is the best way to learn.

Anyway, I get the idea of how this could be a challenge after a lifetime of diet based on the traditional food pyramid.  Bagels, Pasta, Potato's and Ice Cream (OK, maybe not on the pyramid but whatever).  I struggled with the same thing when I started and wondered if I could do this.  After about 2 or 3 months I was hooked.  I still eat the foods I love to eat just without the parts that I consider nutritionally useless. 

I would not push this WOE on anyone as each person has to find a plan that works for them and the key is that it has to be sustainable long term.  Like I said before, for me personally a diet consisting of high carb foods just does not work for me. 

I enjoy my food choices and feel satisfied after I eat.  For lunch today I had taco meat over a bed of romaine with a little cheese, hot sauce and ranch.  It was fulfilling, low carb and not too high in calories.  I find that the only time I really want something high in carbs is when I am in a hurry or on the road.  It can ben difficult to figure out options when the only meal available is fast food unless you planned properly.  I have figured out food that I can eat at most resturants that is still satisfying without the carbs. 

 



2009-06-18 2:51 PM
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Subject: RE: When you diet, do you only look at calories?
Bat -

I find it impressive you've been able to stick with it! I find myself trying to find ways to cut out the carbs little by little, but the thing for me is if I expect to be able to stick with it long term I have to be able to have my latte with a little bit of syrup or slice of pizza. Otherwise I'd just go way off track in a crazy rebellion. I do find the more carbs I cut off the better my control is over over eating so I can see why people stick to it.

Otherwise I attempt to eat what I would call closer to a South Beach type style where fruit is allowed in more quantity. I actually eat fairly similar to you believe it or not. I guess I'm just a brat who can't stay on track w/o my occasional treats.

(Plus with my crazy exercise training My body needs some carbs and that's my excuse! )
2009-06-18 3:21 PM
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Subject: RE: When you diet, do you only look at calories?
If you have some time, PLEASE watch this. It's a talk by the author I mentioned earlier that will give you an alternative view of the causes of the obesity epidemic. Re: our earlier discussion of the thermodynamic law, start at minute 29 and hear what he has to say about that.
Now, I am talking about obesity here. If you are not obese, then perhaps this isn't such a critical issue to you. You might be fine with 50% carbs while your next door neighbor will become obese with that amount of carbs. We all have genetic variations in fat storage, just as all animals do. One example the book and the video gave was dairy and beef cattle We BREED cattle to be either excess fat storers (beef) or very lean (dairy). Are the beef cattle fat because they don't exercise enough or eat too much grains? No, they are fatter because they were bred to put on more fat! Humans are the same. Some of us will put on fat very easily while others, on the same diet, will stay very lean.
2009-06-18 3:25 PM
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Subject: RE: When you diet, do you only look at calories?
Ideal Muse, I am curious how much dietary fat you eat. I find that people that try to go low-carb and have problems with it are generally not eating enough fat to satisfy hunger and food cravings.
And by all means, do not EVER forbid yourself from ANY food. You will literally alter your brain chemistry by denying yourself and make it even harder to control cravings!
You do not have to be perfect. None of us eat a perfect diet. In fact, I don't think you should aim for perfection. I think you should aim to get 80% of your food choices right, and 20% whatever you choose. I cheat a lot (ice cream, I swear I can't stop) but I consider that PART of my diet. There is ALWAYS room for my favorite foods because FOOD IS PLEASURABLE. It is not my enemy. And luckily, the food that is best for me is also very tasty and yummy!
2009-06-18 4:13 PM
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Subject: RE: When you diet, do you only look at calories?
Well I'm actually working on getting more healthy fats into my diet. If left to my own devices I tend to hoover at 15 percent, but looking at my body bugg food logs It's saying 30 percent for the last month or so. 30fat/50carb/20prot I'm working on keeping it below 50 percent and increasing protein, but it's a bit of a challenge for me. I'm definately better then I was.... Its a work in progress.

I've read some of Taubes work so I'm familiar with some of his work and articles. Pretty interesting read.

But when it comes down (for me personally) to it I'm not going to worry about fruits and other healthy carbs and whole grains. If that spikes me upto 50 with my occasional treats on top of that, then so be it. I'm still losing. When I stop maybe I'll take a second look at how to get those last handful of pounds off.

The important thing to me is I'm not filling up on empty calories like 100calorie packs and what not.

I'm just impressed with those who can stick to the more restrictive carbs and manage to find energy to exercise and train on top of that.

2009-06-18 4:18 PM
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Subject: RE: When you diet, do you only look at calories?
Cool! Keep doing what works for you and keeps you sane! Congrats on the weight loss!


2009-06-21 2:29 AM
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Subject: RE: When you diet, do you only look at calories?
IdealMuse - 2009-06-18 5:13 PM 

But when it comes down (for me personally) to it I'm not going to worry about fruits and other healthy carbs and whole grains. If that spikes me upto 50 with my occasional treats on top of that, then so be it. I'm still losing. 

I'm just impressed with those who can stick to the more restrictive carbs and manage to find energy to exercise and train on top of that.


Why do you feel you should worry about where your carbs come from? If you want 50% carbs, why can't your carbs come from fruit, vegetables and nuts?

I think what Jess was trying to say, or I'm going to say, is that you don't need to be 'impressed' with those who eat less carbs and have energy. A point of Taubes research and book is that we are being made to think that eating stripped down, processed grains that are full of preservatives is good for us. You think that if you had a breakfast of healthy, whole foods consisting of fats, protien, and vegetables (mimus the processed bread products) you wouldn't have energy? Highly unlikely.
2009-06-21 8:15 PM
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Subject: RE: When you diet, do you only look at calories?
Comet that's the point. I don't worry about it that much I just try to make good choices, and some people find it hard to run on a diet with a low carb count. 50 percent is definately not low carb... Lower then I am personally used to? Yes.

I know low carb people eat fruit etc. too in moderation, but I didn't get to 300lbs by eating a bag of apples I hardly think eating that now (which I don't) would harm me.

Why am I impressed? To be 100 percent honest? Because if I could I would eat this way. My answer to it is to just scale back as much as I can manage. I know low carb eating has a tendency to suppress appetite, and my body is VERY sensitive to the "rush" of sugars. Also because I personally have a hard time being faithful to such a plan and tend to feel a little drained is all. Could be my choices...who knows.







Edited by IdealMuse 2009-06-21 8:24 PM
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