How cold is too cold with no wetsuit? (Page 2)

2009-07-30 11:04 AM

in reply to: #2317309

Sneaky Slow

8694

Herndon, VA,

Subject: RE: How cold is too cold with no wetsuit?

tcovert - 2009-07-30 11:40 AM

Skip it in the pool. Wear it in the open water when it's legal.

We seem on the same side of the discussion here, but why do you say skip it in the pool? Same benefits apply, especially for someone like me who swims anywhere from :10-:12 faster per 100 with it on.

2009-07-30 11:27 AM

in reply to: #2315190

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Kickback

2009-07-30 12:06 PM

in reply to: #2316735

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Subject: RE: How cold is too cold with no wetsuit?

bruehoyt - 2009-07-30 7:46 AM

newleaf - 2009-07-29 8:43 PM

andysrc - 2009-07-29 1:47 PM

KenyonTri - 2009-07-29 12:36 PM When it's not legal (so, 79 deg). Why are you sacrificing free speed?

Depends on the temp and race length. If the water is 78 degrees and it's a short sprint (500 yard swim or so), you might end up losing more time taking the suit off than you save in the water.

That means that one needs to practice taking off his/her wetsuit. Take it off to the waist while running into T1, when you get to T1, shouldn't take more than a few seconds to take it off.

I've heard people say that they aren't as comfortable swimming with the wetsuit, mostly experienced swimmers, and that argument I can accept... but not the argument that it takes more time to take it off than you save.

this doesNOT mean they need more practice. The shorter the race, the less time you can save in the water. No matter the distance of the race - you always have T1.

if you save 3 seconds per hundred you save 15 seconds in a 500, 26 seconds in half mile.

if with your wetsuit you unzip and pull off your arms while running - even if your are an expert at doing it - you will go slower than someone doing a dead sprint. just the fact it is adding weight and resticting your legs (even a little) adds time -THEN in Trans IF everything goes PERFECT you still need to get it off. doing it with your feet while you put on your helmet and glasses fluidly still takes more time than just putting on your helmet. I am going to guess that with a PERFECT execution of wetsuit removal you add 15-30 sec from water exit to no wetsuit on.

so you are right that it needs practiced but most people will be faster sans wetsuit in a 500 - people who are REALLY good at wetsuit removal AND need some bouancy assist in the swim could do a half mile but for most people it really is not much if any time savings.

i am not sure why wetsuits are allowed period in tris - it ieems like a way to provide an unfair advantage (above half mile). We already have extreme differences in bikes - do we need to make tri's a sport that only the rich can compete?

Funny, they just had an article about this in the Triathlon Life magazine put out by USAT. They said the average triathlete makes double of what the average citizen in the U.S. does.

It also seems that wetsuits are as much a safety item as a speed item for many, especially less experienced swimmers.

ump107

2009-07-30 12:16 PM

in reply to: #2315190

Member

Central NJ

Subject: RE: How cold is too cold with no wetsuit?

We need to face the fact that everyone has a different feeling on wetsuits. I haven’t worn one in a race yet, but I’ve only done 2 tri’s. The use of a wetsuit really usually a personal choice, you need to experiment with different temperatures to see what you are comfortable in.

Some figures I have from my Water rescue training reflects that in 50-60 deg F water, it is felt that not moving and just floating the average person will suffer hypothermia and can remain conscious for about 1-2 hrs, with death possible between 1-6 hrs. For 60-70 deg F water unconsciousness can come in 2-3 hours and death in 2-40 hours. Theses figures are based on remaining still and being in nonmoving water with a floatation device. We know as triathletes that we generate heat when we swim but we are also losing heat to the water.

From my water rescue training I know that for me I can tolerate about 70 degree water without a suit and still feel functional when I get out of the water (I am however wearing a lifejacket as dictated by agency policies). Colder than that my performance is affected when it takes me longer to get back up to speed moving around. With this personal experience knowledge I would gladly choose to wear a wetsuit at temperatures below 75, especially if its an in water start, I might even choose to wear it as long as it would be legal. My first race I’ll have a suit for will be the end of September. I plan on wearing the wetsuit as I know the water will be below 78.

For the OP go out with a friend (for safety) or to an OWS and find water that is different temperatures and see how you feel swimming without a wetsuit. Your no wetsuit comfort temp may be higher or lower than someone here.

2009-07-30 12:24 PM

in reply to: #2317381

Extreme Veteran

1030

West Windsor, NJ

Subject: RE: How cold is too cold with no wetsuit?

newleaf - 2009-07-30 12:04 PM

..but why do you say skip it in the pool? Same benefits apply, especially for someone like me who swims anywhere from :10-:12 faster per 100 with it on.

I agree on skipping it in the pool. Although it offers advantages...it offers RACING advantages. You are going to be a better swimmer without using the WS all the time. And, let's be honest, who cares what your times are in the pool? Then..if/when you need to use a WS, its a bonus. I dont even wear Tri shorts or a tri-suit in the pool unless I am t-testing. I would rather have the drag (and not deteriorate my tri-shorts with chlorine), and then when I have on my tri-suit, it feels even faster.

2009-07-30 12:27 PM

in reply to: #2317551

Sneaky Slow

8694

Herndon, VA,

Subject: RE: How cold is too cold with no wetsuit?

JohnAgs3 - 2009-07-30 1:24 PM

newleaf - 2009-07-30 12:04 PM ...but why do you say skip it in the pool? Same benefits apply, especially for someone like me who swims anywhere from :10-:12 faster per 100 with it on.

Well, yes, of course I was talking about racing, not training.

2009-07-30 12:31 PM

in reply to: #2317508

Expert

1123

Columbus

Subject: RE: How cold is too cold with no wetsuit?

Kickback - 2009-07-30 1:06 PMFunny, they just had an article about this in the Triathlon Life magazine put out by USAT. They said the average triathlete makes double of what the average citizen in the U.S. does.

You illuminate my point - tris are for the rich

2009-07-30 12:40 PM

in reply to: #2315190

Expert

1123

Columbus

Subject: RE: How cold is too cold with no wetsuit?

For a good swimmer I am not convinced the time differences and benefits are there in a sprint. If you guys really are getting the time differences you are talking about it is not due to your ability but rather the suit. So for $400 you can buy some time advantage. What placement does $1000 get you? When I want to swim faster, I train harder.

2009-07-30 12:47 PM

in reply to: #2317592

Sneaky Slow

8694

Herndon, VA,

Subject: RE: How cold is too cold with no wetsuit?

bruehoyt - 2009-07-30 1:40 PM For a good swimmer I am not convinced the time differences and benefits are there in a sprint.

I don't know how much my friend is faster with the wetsuit... but... this particular guy finished, I think, 6th last year in his AG at IMLP, and normally wins or comes in 2nd OA on the swim in other races. I did a sprint triathlon with him last summer, I think a 400m pool swim, pool was low 70s, and he wore a wetsuit. Am not putting his bt name out here because I doubt he wants to be dragged into this discussion. I'm convinced.

If you guys really are getting the time differences you are talking about it is not due to your ability but rather the suit.

Um, yeah, that's pretty obvious. I swim 100 yards in 1:50. I put on a wetsuit and swim it in 1:38. Obviously putting on a wetsuit does not improve my swimming ability. Not sure what your point is there.

When I want to swim faster, I train harder.

Ok, well, then you'll get beat by the guys who train hard and wear wetsuits.

2009-07-30 3:03 PM

in reply to: #2315190

Extreme Veteran

1030

West Windsor, NJ

Subject: RE: How cold is too cold with no wetsuit?

Does Phelps wear a speedsuit for the 50m or just the long races and depending on water temp? See my point?

Its not total apples to apples, but my point is a wetsuit offers fair advantages and you might as well take every legal opportunity you can to be legally faster. If you want to do it the hard way, that is your choice, but don't whine that its "unfair".

Feel free to ride a mountain bike too. Can you do it? sure. Is it a lot harder than a roadie or tri bike? you betcha.
That doesnt make it unfair to ride a roadie or a tri-bike. 'nuff said.

Edited by JohnAgs3 2009-07-30 3:29 PM

DerekL

2009-07-30 3:19 PM

in reply to: #2315190

Champion

8936

Subject: RE: How cold is too cold with no wetsuit?

Pro's wear wetsuits when allowed no matter what the distance. I'm going to listen to the people who race for money.

2009-07-30 3:20 PM

in reply to: #2315190

Subject: ...

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2009-07-30 8:30 PM

in reply to: #2318025

Expert

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Columbus

Subject: RE: How cold is too cold with no wetsuit?

JohnAgs3 - 2009-07-30 4:03 PM Does Phelps wear a speedsuit for the 50m or just the long races and depending on water temp? See my point? Its not total apples to apples, but my point is a wetsuit offers fair advantages and you might as well take every legal opportunity you can to be legally faster. If you want to do it the hard way, that is your choice, but don't whine that its "unfair". Feel free to ride a mountain bike too. Can you do it? sure. Is it a lot harder than a roadie or tri bike? you betcha. That doesnt make it unfair to ride a roadie or a tri-bike. 'nuff said.

Another illumination of my point : On phelps - that is currently a point of contention - is the body suit cheating? They are looking to ban them.

As far as bikes go, it would be nice to have some kind of regulation on them as well - but I realize that is an impossibility. Wouldn't it be nice to see who is fastes instead of who has the nicest stuff?

2009-07-30 8:39 PM

in reply to: #2318070

Expert

1123

Columbus

Subject: RE: How cold is too cold with no wetsuit?

bachorb - 2009-07-30 4:20 PM I disagree that triathlon is a sport for "the rich." I think it is a sport for highly dedicated and motivated people - surprise surprise, those people tend to have more money than your average slob. Marathoners are also on average much better off than your average American - and don't tell me running marathons is expensive.

you talk out of both sides of your mouth -you disagree that triathlon is a sport for "the rich." and you say: Marathoners are also on average much better off than your average American (implying triathletes have money)

does it take money to train and do marathons? yes. less than Tris? yes! but again this illuminates my point - doing a marathon does not REQUIRE the same amount of money to be spent to avoid an equipment handicap.

and of course marathoners are also in a higher income bracket than the average person - the people dragging down the income average are worried about meeting basic needs, not running marathons. Since it coasts $100 x 2 pair per year, $60 minimum entry fee, travel exp, TIME to train

Edited by bruehoyt 2009-07-30 8:41 PM

2009-07-31 8:07 AM

in reply to: #2318522

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2009-07-31 8:28 AM

in reply to: #2318998

Expert

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Columbus

Subject: RE: How cold is too cold with no wetsuit?

bachorb - 2009-07-31 9:07 AM

bruehoyt - 2009-07-30 8:30 PM

I am not saying that having a nice bike doesn't make a difference, but your fit and your training are 95% of it. It still is about the engine, regardless of what kind of bike you have.

completely agree

2009-07-31 10:38 AM

in reply to: #2318522

Extreme Veteran

1030

West Windsor, NJ

Subject: RE: How cold is too cold with no wetsuit?

bruehoyt - 2009-07-30 9:30 PM
is the body suit cheating? They are looking to ban them.<

NO. Its not cheating. Why? its allowed by the rules and anyone can go out and buy one. Not sure of your definition of cheating and unfair advantage. Cheating = not allowed by the rules. Unfair advantage = not everyone has access to it. Wetsuits and Lazr suits do not fit into either category.

Its like the whole F1 racing vs. NASCAR debate in a big way. Different races, different rules. I guess if you want a more level playing field, just enter non-wetsuit races if you dont have one. But dont enter a wetsuit legal race, not wear one, and whine that its an unfair advantage. Its not. Is it advantageous? absolutely. And there is nothing stopping you from wearing one. That is my point here.

2009-07-31 10:56 AM

in reply to: #2319477

Expert

1123

Columbus

Subject: RE: How cold is too cold with no wetsuit?

JohnAgs3 - 2009-07-31 11:38 AM

bruehoyt - 2009-07-30 9:30 PMis the body suit cheating? They are looking to ban them.<

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gqIt5yPmLbVxMP-CXjgHIhRv6_lQD99NLT6O1

also note that was posted this as a question. not sure how you interpret that as my definition. question = something to be pondered / definition = stating factually what something is

Edited by bruehoyt 2009-07-31 10:59 AM

2009-07-31 11:11 AM

in reply to: #2319541

Sneaky Slow

8694

Herndon, VA,

Subject: RE: How cold is too cold with no wetsuit?

bruehoyt - 2009-07-31 11:56 AM

JohnAgs3 - 2009-07-31 11:38 AM

bruehoyt - 2009-07-30 9:30 PMis the body suit cheating? They are looking to ban them.<

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gqIt5yPmLbVxMP-CXjgHIhRv6_lQD99NLT6O1

also note that was posted this as a question. not sure how you interpret that as my definition. question = something to be pondered / definition = stating factually what something is

Fact = something that doesn't need to be pondered.

Cheating = Breaking the actual rules

The rules = at this moment in time, allow the suits

Asking if someone wearing one of those suits is cheating, does not need to be pondered, since it is a fact that they are not.

2009-07-31 11:38 AM

in reply to: #2319587

Extreme Veteran

1030

West Windsor, NJ

Subject: RE: How cold is too cold with no wetsuit?

I think this horse is adequately off topic and dead at this point.

ballyard7

2009-07-31 12:19 PM

in reply to: #2315222

Expert

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Tulsa

Subject: RE: How cold is too cold with no wetsuit?

I saw some people at IMCali 70.3 without wetsuits and it was 55F

vtlundy

2009-08-07 9:07 AM

in reply to: #2315190

Subject: RE: How cold is too cold with no wetsuit?

I recently had low grade hypothermia after being in water in the high 60's for an hour. My jaw and throat were tightening and I was shivering uncontrollably at the finish for over 20 minutes. This was strictly a swim but I certainly would not have been able to get on a bike in that condition. I have very little body fat and may not have eaten enough the morning of the swim, but now I feel obligated to wear a wetsuit if I'm going to be in the water that long in anything below 70 degrees.

Bioteknik

2009-08-07 10:50 AM

in reply to: #2319477

Expert

1123

Falls Church, VA

Subject: RE: How cold is too cold with no wetsuit?

JohnAgs3 - 2009-07-31 11:38 AM

bruehoyt - 2009-07-30 9:30 PM is the body suit cheating? They are looking to ban them.<

NO. Its not cheating. Why? its allowed by the rules and anyone can go out and buy one. Not sure of your definition of cheating and unfair advantage. Cheating = not allowed by the rules. Unfair advantage = not everyone has access to it. Wetsuits and Lazr suits do not fit into either category. Its like the whole F1 racing vs. NASCAR debate in a big way. Different races, different rules. I guess if you want a more level playing field, just enter non-wetsuit races if you dont have one. But dont enter a wetsuit legal race, not wear one, and whine that its an unfair advantage. Its not. Is it advantageous? absolutely. And there is nothing stopping you from wearing one. That is my point here.

not everyone has access to a lazr suit since they're so damn expensive, which was the whole argument against them.

to answer the OP I did a i mile OW swim in 70 degrees without one. It wasn't too bad, a bit cold at first but not so bad after the first 100 yards or so. I didn't rent a wetsuit that day since xterra uses ITU water temp/wetsuit rules so I figured it was close enough to the 72 degree temp cutoff and I wanted to see what it really felt like since my pool is usually 80 degrees.

Edited by Bioteknik 2009-08-07 10:54 AM