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2005-08-15 10:19 AM
in reply to: #225368

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Buttercup
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Subject: RE: Attention atheist triathletes

line - 2005-08-15 9:59 AM Heard on the news this morning that Tom Delay was preaching freedom of religion to 3000 baptists, and got all pissed that the Supreme Court doesn't allow the 10 commandments in front of a courthouse.

He's not a Constitutional scholar; he's a former pest exterminator. Take it with a grain of salt.



2005-08-15 10:33 AM
in reply to: #225353

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Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: Attention atheist triathletes
I am finally reading a book I purchased about 3 years ago by one of my favorite non-fiction writers, Karen Armstrong (The Battle for God). Karen makes the argument for needing both mythos and logos in our lives. It's a great read. I highly recommend it (along with her other books).


I've read several of her books. She's an excellent writer and I too recommend her for anyone wanting to read about comparative religion.

Here's an interview with her on NPR's Fresh Air.

Maybe this would be better posted in a thread titled, "Attention Catholic Triathletes", but I do disagree with her take on theology where it tries to separate itself from catholic tradition. I think it is an error that relies more on how she wants things to come out rather than how things really are and have been.

Renee -

I don't blame religion for their despotism... Nor do I blame lack of religion for the despotism ofthe 20th century. I see no causal connection. I see the oldest story ofman - dark hearts with power.[/quote

Really? You see no causal relationship between a certain fundamentalist Islam and terrorist bombings, between a certain fundamentalist Christianity and shooting abortion providers?

I do. I think it comes from poor theology based on a faith that has abandoned reason and turned faith into mere myth.

At the same time, I think that communist totalitarianism, to a great extent, came from relying solely on reason and abandoning faith.

Your post makes me want to reread The Battle for God. Can't comment on her use of the words mythos and logos until I do that.

Gosh, it's great to be back from vacation.
2005-08-15 10:37 AM
in reply to: #225415

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Buttercup
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Subject: RE: Attention atheist triathletes

She talked alot about mythos and logos in A History of God too.

My point was that I don't believe religion makes men with dark hearts do dark things. That's just a convenient cover. The real culprit is fear.



Edited by Renee 2005-08-15 10:39 AM
2005-08-15 10:41 AM
in reply to: #225393

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Subject: RE: Attention atheist triathletes
Renee - 2005-08-15 9:19 AM

line - 2005-08-15 9:59 AM Heard on the news this morning that Tom Delay was preaching freedom of religion to 3000 baptists, and got all pissed that the Supreme Court doesn't allow the 10 commandments in front of a courthouse.

He's not a Constitutional scholar; he's a former pest exterminator. Take it with a grain of salt.



Yes, ok, I try, but if we took EVERYTHING this administration/senate did with a grain of salt, there would be some real problems.
2005-08-15 10:41 AM
in reply to: #225420

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Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: Attention atheist triathletes
Oops, sorry... I meant A History of God...

The real culprit is fear.


Elaborate please.
2005-08-15 10:44 AM
in reply to: #225424

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Buttercup
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Subject: RE: Attention atheist triathletes

The biggest questions come in the smallest package, don't they?

Allow me to PM you with my thoughts, probably tonight/tomorrow morning. It's almost noon and my logos is telling me my job will be myth if I don't stop playing around.



2005-08-15 10:48 AM
in reply to: #225415

Elite
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Subject: RE: Attention atheist triathletes
dontracy - 2005-08-15 7:33 AM

Really? You see no causal relationship between a certain fundamentalist Islam and terrorist bombings, between a certain fundamentalist Christianity and shooting abortion providers? I do. I think it comes from poor theology based on a faith that has abandoned reason and turned faith into mere myth. At the same time, I think that communist totalitarianism, to a great extent, came from relying solely on reason and abandoning faith.


I thought it was because Stalin was a paranoid schizophrenic

Totalitarian and fascist governments suck. The lack of religion did not cause these environments to fester and grow. People are suckers for stupid causes.


2005-08-15 10:49 AM
in reply to: #225427

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Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: Attention atheist triathletes
Allow me to PM you with my thoughts, probably tonight/tomorrow morning. It's almost noon and my logos is telling me my job will be myth if I don't stop playing around.


okee dokee

we're all pulling for you to get that new bike


Edited by dontracy 2005-08-15 10:50 AM
2005-08-15 10:49 AM
in reply to: #225368

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Giver
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Subject: RE: Attention atheist triathletes

line - 2005-08-15 9:59 AM  Whatever happened to love your (gay, lesbian, had an abortion, had sex before marriage, has different religios or non religious fews) neighbor?

There are extremists for every point of view. Unfortunatley, many fundamentalists have lost the ability to love those different from them. Oh sure, they'll say they love all people, but it's condescending at best, and a down-right lie at worst. Those "Christians", the intolleratnt ones, do not live a Christ-centered IMO, despite their efforts to convince you otherwise. They are sheltered and have no desire to live in the world. If you follow the example of Christ, you do live in the world.

I have a little story: my MIL, a very Christ-centered woman, but one of moderate beliefs want to a restaurant with a buch of self-professed Baptist "church ladies". They were full, but the hostess said there was room in the bar if they'd like to sit there. One of the ladies said something to the hostess  to the effect that they were a Sunday school group and would not sit at the bar. The hostess said, "well, do you think Jesus would?" My MIL smiled and led the ladies into the bar. 

I don't really know what that story has to do with anything, actually, but I like telling it. Maybe it's that many Christians forget who Christ actually was in their attempt to lead their lives like his. He didn't hang out in church, he didn't surround himself with his followers. He actively sought out places where people needed help. And his disciples weren't exactly upstanding pillars of society when they came to follow him. They were muderers, theives and prostitutes.

2005-08-15 10:51 AM
in reply to: #225355

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Subject: RE: Attention atheist triathletes

In my mind there has not been a more detrimental, evil and misguided movement in the history of man than religion.

I also get very angry when educated, well-reasoned people make excuses for those of faith and their actions. That "free-pass," that desire not to be ostersized by this religious country has contributed to many of our current fundamentalist issues like Iraq and is furthering an intolerant society that will not accept you, no matter how understanding of their faith and regardless of your tolerance for their point of view.

Teaching abstinence instead of sexual education is a "mild" example of what happens when people let religious zealots make decisions for them in the name of god. Teen pregnancy and disease is higher than ever - and I blame Christianity. Is this desire to have someone with all the answers tell you what to do so great that you won't open your own eyes? that this abstinence only education is casing your children to spend the rest of their life living with sexually transmitted diseases? That your kids are having abortions because of your misguided faith?

Jesus is not going to make everything all right. Take some responsibility, and instead of giving your money to these charlatans, why don't you donate to a more reasonable charity that will not keep building bigger churches, driving bigger cars and funding more extravagant congregations

Pat Robinson praying nightly on TV for more "openings" on the Supreme Court - in effect praying for Justices to die is another is what faith is really about. It's about intolerance and recruitment. It's not ok, it's stupid and destructive and a lie and scared people ignore these things done in their gods name as long as they think they themselves are going to get into heaven.

It's disgusting.

2005-08-15 10:56 AM
in reply to: #225432

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Philadelphia, south of New York and north of DC
Subject: RE: Attention atheist triathletes
I thought it was because Stalin was a paranoid schizophrenic


Quit following me, and stop yelling in my ear to go to the refrigerator and eat chocolate cake.


2005-08-15 11:13 AM
in reply to: #225441

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Giver
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Subject: RE: Attention atheist triathletes
tmwelshy - 2005-08-15 10:51 AM

In my mind there has not been a more detrimental, evil and misguided movement in the history of man than religion.

Couldn't agree with you more. How many people have been killed in the name of religion, how many wars have been fought, or are still being fought?

I also get very angry when educated, well-reasoned people make excuses for those of faith and their actions. 

Me too. People should be held accountable for their actions, no matter what their justification is.

That "free-pass," that desire not to be ostersized by this religious country has contributed to many of our current fundamentalist issues like Iraq and is furthering an intolerant society that will not accept you, no matter how understanding of their faith and regardless of your tolerance for their point of view.

Amen

Teaching abstinence instead of sexual education is a "mild" example of what happens when people let religious zealots make decisions for them in the name of god. Teen pregnancy and disease is higher than ever - and I blame Christianity.

I agree that it's rediculous to only teach kids abstinence, but I blame families for not doing the job they should with their kids, before I'll blame organized religion. And anyway...how many kids are out there that don't know what a condom is or how it works? Hormones displace knowledge every time.

Jesus is not going to make everything all right.

Agreed. Man has free will. Believers of Christ know that there is grace and that Jesus can save you, but it's not a one-way street. You have to take accountability for your actions.

Take some responsibility,

Absolutely

and instead of giving your money to these charlatans, why don't you donate to a more reasonable charity that will not keep building bigger churches, driving bigger cars and funding more extravagant congregations.

I take issue with that generalization. It's like saying "all atheists are bad people." There are elements of every societal group that are sorrup, but don't put everyone in a category into the same box.  There are plenty of churches that do amazing work.

Pat Robinson praying nightly on TV for more "openings" on the Supreme Court - in effect praying for Justices to die is another is what faith is really about. It's about intolerance and recruitment. 

That being said, televangelsists deserve the bad wrap they get. They give good Christians a bad name.

My point is that zealotry, in any form, is generally a bad thing.

Reading back on what I've written, I hate always saying "Christians" when arguing my perspectice. BUt I am one, so I guess that's why I use the term. But feel free to substitute, Jew, Muslim, Taoist, Wiccan or what have you.



Edited by run4yrlif 2005-08-15 11:13 AM
2005-08-15 11:21 AM
in reply to: #224606

Elite
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Subject: RE: Attention atheist triathletes
Leave the Wiccan's out of this! What's a Wiccan?

Edited by ChuckyFinster 2005-08-15 11:21 AM
2005-08-15 11:23 AM
in reply to: #225468

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Giver
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Subject: RE: Attention atheist triathletes

ChuckyFinster - 2005-08-15 11:21 AM What's a Wiccan?

Seriously?

2005-08-15 11:24 AM
in reply to: #224606

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Subject: RE: Attention atheist triathletes
Jim is smart.

Pat Robertson is his name. Mr Robinson is Eddie Murphy's SNL character. I wonder which of the religious threads to which each "character" would reply
2005-08-15 11:34 AM
in reply to: #225471

Elite
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Subject: RE: Attention atheist triathletes
run4yrlif - 2005-08-15 8:23 AM

ChuckyFinster - 2005-08-15 11:21 AM What's a Wiccan?

Seriously?



I just Googled. You learn something new everyday


2005-08-15 11:35 AM
in reply to: #225441

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Subject: RE: Attention atheist triathletes
tmwelshy - 2005-08-15 9:51 AM

In my mind there has not been a more detrimental, evil and misguided movement in the history of man than religion



Well said.
2005-08-15 11:36 AM
in reply to: #225458

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Subject: RE: Attention atheist triathletes

I agree that it's rediculous to only teach kids abstinence, but I blame families for not doing the job they should with their kids, before I'll blame organized religion. And anyway...how many kids are out there that don't know what a condom is or how it works? Hormones displace knowledge every time.

Sure parents need to ultimately be respnsible for their kids education, I agree. But it sure does make it hard when a child's school is misleading her... and I find it difficult not to hold some blame for religion here...

and instead of giving your money to these charlatans, why don't you donate to a more reasonable charity that will not keep building bigger churches, driving bigger cars and funding more extravagant congregations.

I take issue with that generalization. It's like saying "all atheists are bad people." There are elements of every societal group that are sorrup, but don't put everyone in a category into the same box.  There are plenty of churches that do amazing work.

I agree, you're right, big generalization and not fair. But that doesn't mean it's not also true in many cases. I was speaking more to the feeling that "I gave at church so my conscious is clean" mentality.

2005-08-15 11:43 AM
in reply to: #225491

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Giver
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Subject: RE: Attention atheist triathletes
tmwelshy - 2005-08-15 11:36 AM

I agree that it's rediculous to only teach kids abstinence, but I blame families for not doing the job they should with their kids, before I'll blame organized religion. And anyway...how many kids are out there that don't know what a condom is or how it works? Hormones displace knowledge every time.

Sure parents need to ultimately be respnsible for their kids education, I agree. But it sure does make it hard when a child's school is misleading her... and I find it difficult not to hold some blame for religion here...

and instead of giving your money to these charlatans, why don't you donate to a more reasonable charity that will not keep building bigger churches, driving bigger cars and funding more extravagant congregations.

I take issue with that generalization. It's like saying "all atheists are bad people." There are elements of every societal group that are sorrup, but don't put everyone in a category into the same box.  There are plenty of churches that do amazing work.

I agree, you're right, big generalization and not fair. But that doesn't mean it's not also true in many cases. I was speaking more to the feeling that "I gave at church so my conscious is clean" mentality.

Point #1: I see your point. Yeah...I don't think abstinence alone would be taught at school if it weren't for far right political influence, and we know where that ideology comes from...

Point #2: Definitely. Hopefully, most of "us" realize salvation can't be bought. Some of us are stoopid, though...

2005-08-15 4:11 PM
in reply to: #225436

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Subject: RE: Attention atheist triathletes
run4yrlif - 2005-08-15 11:49 AM

I don't really know what that story has to do with anything, actually, but I like telling it. 



i love it.  made me smile!
2005-08-15 4:26 PM
in reply to: #225828

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Buttercup
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Subject: RE: Attention deficit triathletes
You know, without my reading glasses this thread title looks like "attention deficit triathletes."


2005-08-15 4:35 PM
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Subject: RE: Attention deficit triathletes
Renee - 2005-08-15 3:26 PM

You know, without my reading glasses this thread title looks like "attention deficit triathletes."


That was EXACTLY what I saw, too....and I AM wearing my contacts.
2005-08-15 6:47 PM
in reply to: #224606

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Subject: RE: Attention atheist triathletes
Wiccan.  That's like that bark-like stuff they make furniture out of.  I have a wiccan chair in my house.  Or maybe that's wicker. 
2005-08-15 7:23 PM
in reply to: #225851

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Attention deficit triathletes

line - 2005-08-15 4:35 PM
Renee - 2005-08-15 3:26 PM You know, without my reading glasses this thread title looks like "attention deficit triathletes."
That was EXACTLY what I saw, too....and I AM wearing my contacts.

There is another thread called that...

2005-08-15 8:11 PM
in reply to: #224606

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Elite
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Subject: RE: Attention atheist triathletes
As a christian I've read this thread and the thread from Michael posted for Christian triathletes, and I'm struck by something. The thread for Christian triathletes, in which Michael Pates simply gave a link to a christian based tri club was quickly hijacked and became a forum for a debate on the merits of christianity and a forum for non-christians to voice their opinions. However, in this thread no christian has chimed in to attempt to convert or change the opinions of those that answered this thread. And yet, many of you that have participated in this thread have called christians intolerant, and ignorant.

Interesting that the athiests hijacked the Christian thread, but not a single "intolerant" christian has hijacked this thread.
I'm not going to get into a public debate regarding my faith and Christianity. If anyone would like to find out why I am a believer they are more than welcome to PM me and I can explain my views. Perhaps we can engage in a civil exchange of ideas and beliefs. I agree with some of the things said in this thread and some, as a christian I find blatantly offensive, and purposefully intolerant.

I just thought I'd point out the interesting paradox of this thread and the "attention Christian triathletes" thread, and how the opposing viewpoints acting in each of the threads.
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