BT book club: Room.....What did you think?? (Page 2)

You didn't miss it.... we are discussing. I was surprised more folks weren't chiming in so please - chime!

I'm chiming in, you just don't realize it.  It goes something like this "oh, good point" but then someone already said it so I don't post it.  

I think THESE are the questions that bugged me the most in the book.  Was it easier for Ma to keep the outside world as a fantasy?  Sure.  But parenting ISN'T easy, is it?  (Not that I know from experience.)  I see it from both sides though because how do you go about telling a child about all the great things that Outside holds and they still can't experience it for themselves.  But poor Jack was totally unprepared for the escape plan, so I do believe she should have taken more time to explain Outside to him before shoving him off into a world he didn't know. 

I also don't know a lot about childhood development, so I don't know what the learning curve of a 5 year old is, but I found myself so frustrated with how naive Jack was for so long after the escape.  Is that normal?  It's hard watching him act like a 2 year old when he's Outside. 

I want to know how everybody feels about the lack of boundaries between Ma and Jack in the Room, with breastfeeding and bathing together.  For parents, when do those boundaries usually become established?

As you can see, I feel that I lost a lot of the book simply by not having children because I couldn't relate at all to that aspect.

Lastly, I loved Steppa's character.  It just goes to show that the best family does NOT have to be blood-related.  He was the most supportive character in the book and had the most patience with Jack.  He reminds me of my own Steppa!

I don't see the breastfeeding thing as a boundary issue. She could feed him. This was the ONE thing she could control - she could still make milk to feed her child, for this ONE thing she was not dependant on Nick. This made total sense to me. Then again, I breastfed my kids for 2-3.75 years so I'm definitely on the hippy side of that issue.

As for bathing - there is a point when it does become weird but that usually has more to do with society. Nudity boundaries are up to the individual parent & child and is only an issue when it is weird to one of them. I thought it was great that he felt no shame about his body. It's too bad we don't all have that. I felt comfortable naked around my boys until they were 4-5 years old. I wasn't sharing a bath with them but I would have if it made sense ie - not much water or some other issue. Not sure why they bathed together but I personally don't see the harm. The whole parents and kids not being around each other nude is very western thinking. Many cultures share showers/bathe as a family. I birthed my last 3 children at home and my other children came into the room shortly after the birth and I wasn't exactly covering up in the bathtub. However, the focus certainly wasn't on me. As a breastfeeding Mother my sons have seen me nurse their sisters and that is completely normal for them.

Ok, got the internet back then we lost power all of last night. Sheesh, now I'm all caught up.

I agree that I would not have ever in a million years read this book but I'm glad I did. It haunted me a little because I am the mother of a 5 year old boy. It really made me stop and think about how many things we discuss in a day that he really does not understand. How I expect him to be able to deal with situations but in reality he is just beginning to understand his own emotions. I wanted to give Grandma a big hug for trying so hard. She could have just left Jack in the clinic and visited every once in a while but she rolled up her sleeves and jumped right in.

Ok, got the internet back then we lost power all of last night. Sheesh, now I'm all caught up.

I agree that I would not have ever in a million years read this book but I'm glad I did. It haunted me a little because I am the mother of a 5 year old boy. It really made me stop and think about how many things we discuss in a day that he really does not understand. How I expect him to be able to deal with situations but in reality he is just beginning to understand his own emotions. I wanted to give Grandma a big hug for trying so hard. She could have just left Jack in the clinic and visited every once in a while but she rolled up her sleeves and jumped right in.

Speaking from preschool teacher experience, I assume Jack would be considered developmentally delayed. Ma did a great job in the room but there were only so many experiences she could provide. Example: Most young children start to practice walking up and down stairs as a toddler. Jack saw his first set of stairs on the outside at the age of 5. This puts his development in that area at a delay as compared to the average 5 year old child.

Regarding the mother not teaching him about the outside world, some of that may have been because she may have come to a point in her captivity that the outside world was gone for her.  Of course, once we realize they will make the escape, you realize that she never had let go of getting back to the outside world, but in raising Jack she may have felt that it was better to not let him know what he was missing.

In regards to the bathing together, that seemed very normal to me.  Many children bath with their parents in the beginning and it isn't until one or the other becomes embarassed about their body that the bathing together stops.  And it is too bad, because when I worked at the summer camp, I would have to check to make sure the girls were taking off their bathing suits when showering in order to avoid a lot of nasty uncleanlyness and eventual infections.  If we weren't so self concious about our bodies then this would not be an issue.

And the breast feeding, I do have to admit that I was uncomfortable with him doing this at his age, but then again I saw no harm in it for the world they were in.  Children are comfortable with routines and since there was no need to change that particular routine while in the room, why not?

I personally think she made the right choice in not telling him that the outside world was real.  She'd been held captive for a long time before he was born so it would be hard for her to predict when she might be released.  If she had told him the outside world was real, at some point he would question why he couldn't go in to the outside world.  This would be followed by more questions and eventually she'd have to explain their situation and I just don't see an easy way to explain this to a child to make it less scary.  I think what she did was kind and protective.  No matter how she handled it, there were always going to be difficulties and I don't think her way was any more harmful than telling him the truth.  Even if he knew that "outside" was real, I bet he'd still have gone through everything that he went through when he eventually escaped.  The main difference would have been that "inside" would have been more scary at the time. 

I still bathe with my boys. My oldest is just over 4.5 years old.  Not every time they take a bath but every now and then.  I dress and undress in front of them.  We don't walk around the house naked but I don't see why people are so uptight about this.  My children know that it isn't OK to be naked around other people or touch people in private areas.  But I think it is really prudish to think kids shouldn't bathe or shower with their parents.  Now, I confess, I don't know at what age I will stop doing this.  Right now, it is more a convenience thing than anything else.  My guess is that my kids will want to stop bathing with me before I want to stop bathing with them. To be honest, I didn't bat an eyelid when I read that Ma and Jack were bathing together.  It didn't cross my mind that anything was wrong with this.

Giving up breastfeeding was devastating to me with both kids.  It is a connection that unless you've been there, you just cannot explain to someone else.  I don't begrudge her at all for wanting this small comfort for both of them in such an environment. 

I really appreciate all the perspectives of the moms here ... we haven't had a dad chime in yet ...

It never occurred to me that it would be odd for a 5-year-old to bathe with his mother under any circumstances, and particularly not in an 11x11 ft space ... where would there be space for boundaries there?

I do think Donoghue wanted to make a point there, since she created the child as male (in fact, there was a stillborn female before him ... how much more obvious that Jack is a deliberate HIM?).

In this horribly artificial environment, Ma has managed to keep many things as 'natural' as possible--the irony, since I think a number of people would find it strange for children, especially of a different gender, to have naked parents around.

It doesn't seem particularly abnormal to me--and many of you have pointed out excellent reasons or made comments--that a 5-year-old child would breastfeed, ESPECIALLY under these circumstances.

Because "having some" or "having lots" is repeated so much, and such a big deal is made of it (in the sheer number of occurrences, and the only time we see Jack truly feel threatened is when he thinks Old Nick might be having some) ... and this is the ONE case where Jack doesn't use correct terminology (did Ma not teach that to him? or is that just another plot hole) ... again, Donoghue is making a very strong point, and it happens to be one with which I agree. I applaud her for making this an issue.

This is so true. My children have a house full of toys but all they ever really want is someone to play with them.

Actually I know families that use this terminology. Some Moms don't want their kids using words to identify the breast especially in public so when a kid says "Mom, I want Some" in mixed company people don't know what the kid is talking about. We used sign language before my kids could use words so they signed Milk when they wanted to nurse and continued to do that. Even for kids who have a word for breastfeeding will often say I want Some. Interesting the first time this was mentioned, I knew exactly what Jack was talking about. Ma had no reason in the world to wean him and every reason to continue lactation and nursing. She could provide for Jack and herself if needed.

I agree with the positive messages being sent re breastfeeding. As others have said, this was the one thing that she could control and provided Ma with autonomy and most likely comfort as well. 

I was surprised that Jack did not react more negatively to the discovery that he could no longer "have some". But I suppose the forced separation acted as a weaning period.......

As an NICU nurse, and self professed "t*t Nazi" , I have been preaching the benefits of breastfeeding for 25 years. It's a miraculous thing....it truly is. 

My own boys self weaned at 10 and 15 months. And as Malgal said, the loss of this closeness was the cause of much sadness indeed.

Have we decided when we will start the next book? 

I think I posted it in the other thread. I already started it but I don't have gobs of time to read so I wanted to get a jump on it. I think the plan was to discuss June 13? Per the vote we are going with The Art of Racing followed by Cutting for Stone. When we are done with Art I think someone else should start a poll with options for book #4.

Hope everyone is having a great weekend, I have really enjoyed this discussion.

Thanks Keri!

It was the discussion date I was wondering about.

Shall I start a pre thread?

Ok, I've finally finished it - actually I didn't take very long to read it, I just didn't get the book until recently. Anyway, I think it's been discussed quite thoroughly and I have enjoyed reading peoples views but just so I can be a part of this book club (better late than never!), here are my thoughts!

Firstly, I loved the book. Obviously it was avery dark subject matter but seeing it through the eyes of Jack certainly took the edge off. I loved his observations of his Ma's expressions and could imagine exactly what he was describing (or at least I assume so!). I also found it quite funny in places which I didn't expect.

I was amazed at everything that Ma had put in place to keep Jack amused and busy in Room. I think she did an amazing job and in the same circumstances I am not sure I would have the strength to do the same. I liked her decision to not explain the outside world to Jack as I think it saved him some heartache, not wishing for something unattainable. Again, I'm not sure it would even have crossed my mind to do something like that.

I actually wasn't expecting the escape. When I started I assumed it would be one of those books that just doesn't have a happy ending so I was genuinely surprised that it came so soon and that it worked. As with others, I was not convinced at Old Nick not checking Jack was dead but I think that was my only issue with the plot really. Oh, yes, the handing over of Jack to Grandma when Ma OD'd, but I was enjoying the book so much I chose to overlook that.

Thats it I think. I was sad when it finished but I don't think the end felt sudden. I hope the next book is as good!