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ACA and You can keep your health insurance (Page 2)
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 2015-06-01 1:18 PM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Pro  9391     Omaha, NE |  Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insuranceOriginally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by jmcconne Originally posted by dmiller5 While I am a white male, I was born in the outskirts of Detroit. If that counts for anything. If I had the same parents that instilled the same values including the great importance of education, I'm pretty sure I'd be pretty close. Obviously being white and handsome (not sure if you knew I was good looking) likely provided me some advantages, but I'd be willing to bet working hard from elementary school through grad school and not getting into drugs or other bad habits had more of an affect. Originally posted by jmcconne Originally posted by dmiller5 > Worst answer ever.... I'm fine with ACA, but this type of comment makes me think twice. and the fruits of your labors are there for you because of your privileged place in society. So if you were born a black woman in the outskirts of Detroit, you'd be in the same place you are now? What if you parents were drug addicts that taught you your whole life that working hard gets you no where. My point is that the situation you were born in to impacts your opportunities. People in this country are racist. People in the country are sexist. People in this country discriminate about lots of things. Pretending like a Christian, white, good looking male doesn't have advantages of others is total BS. Now you can argue that these things can be overcome, fine. But pretending like they don't exist, because YOU want to believe that your success is due solely to your own hard work, and not some amount of luck or generosity from others is total crap. Someone, somewhere threw you a bone, or taught you a lesson, or gave you a job etc. etc. etc. that helped you succeed. As a more wealthy person you are more likely to receive this assistance. As a person born in a certain place you are more likely to receive this assistance. ETA: And if you got really sick when you were homeless, and couldn't afford healthcare, you sure as shootin wouldn't have made it where you are. you would have died. Healthcare shouldn't be a flippin privilege. it should be a right that every HUMAN BEING has, no matter if they are lucky enough to have a good job with benefits or not,. All I have to say is Wow. |
| 2015-06-01 1:23 PM in reply to: jmcconne |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insurance Originally posted by jmcconne Originally posted by dmiller5 I'm not in any way against helping others. But to say that what I have is simply because of my place in society is as drastic an over simplification as it is to say that anyone who does not graduate from high school is dumb. Originally posted by jmcconne Originally posted by dmiller5 While I am a white male, I was born in the outskirts of Detroit. If that counts for anything. If I had the same parents that instilled the same values including the great importance of education, I'm pretty sure I'd be pretty close. Obviously being white and handsome (not sure if you knew I was good looking) likely provided me some advantages, but I'd be willing to bet working hard from elementary school through grad school and not getting into drugs or other bad habits had more of an affect. Originally posted by jmcconne Originally posted by dmiller5 > Worst answer ever.... I'm fine with ACA, but this type of comment makes me think twice. and the fruits of your labors are there for you because of your privileged place in society. So if you were born a black woman in the outskirts of Detroit, you'd be in the same place you are now? What if you parents were drug addicts that taught you your whole life that working hard gets you no where. My point is that the situation you were born in to impacts your opportunities. People in this country are racist. People in the country are sexist. People in this country discriminate about lots of things. Pretending like a Christian, white, good looking male doesn't have advantages of others is total BS. Now you can argue that these things can be overcome, fine. But pretending like they don't exist, because YOU want to believe that your success is due solely to your own hard work, and not some amount of luck or generosity from others is total crap. Someone, somewhere threw you a bone, or taught you a lesson, or gave you a job etc. etc. etc. that helped you succeed. As a more wealthy person you are more likely to receive this assistance. As a person born in a certain place you are more likely to receive this assistance. ETA: And if you got really sick when you were homeless, and couldn't afford healthcare, you sure as shootin wouldn't have made it where you are. you would have died. Healthcare shouldn't be a flippin privilege. it should be a right that every HUMAN BEING has, no matter if they are lucky enough to have a good job with benefits or not,. lol, so true. I dropped out of high school. (did go back and get diploma though) |
| 2015-06-01 1:26 PM in reply to: tuwood |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insurance Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by jmcconne Originally posted by dmiller5 While I am a white male, I was born in the outskirts of Detroit. If that counts for anything. If I had the same parents that instilled the same values including the great importance of education, I'm pretty sure I'd be pretty close. Obviously being white and handsome (not sure if you knew I was good looking) likely provided me some advantages, but I'd be willing to bet working hard from elementary school through grad school and not getting into drugs or other bad habits had more of an affect. Originally posted by jmcconne Originally posted by dmiller5 > Worst answer ever.... I'm fine with ACA, but this type of comment makes me think twice. and the fruits of your labors are there for you because of your privileged place in society. So if you were born a black woman in the outskirts of Detroit, you'd be in the same place you are now? What if you parents were drug addicts that taught you your whole life that working hard gets you no where. My point is that the situation you were born in to impacts your opportunities. People in this country are racist. People in the country are sexist. People in this country discriminate about lots of things. Pretending like a Christian, white, good looking male doesn't have advantages of others is total BS. Now you can argue that these things can be overcome, fine. But pretending like they don't exist, because YOU want to believe that your success is due solely to your own hard work, and not some amount of luck or generosity from others is total crap. Someone, somewhere threw you a bone, or taught you a lesson, or gave you a job etc. etc. etc. that helped you succeed. As a more wealthy person you are more likely to receive this assistance. As a person born in a certain place you are more likely to receive this assistance. ETA: And if you got really sick when you were homeless, and couldn't afford healthcare, you sure as shootin wouldn't have made it where you are. you would have died. Healthcare shouldn't be a flippin privilege. it should be a right that every HUMAN BEING has, no matter if they are lucky enough to have a good job with benefits or not,. All I have to say is Wow. care to explain? I mean to me the argument that we shouldn't provide universal healthcare is "wow" |
| 2015-06-01 4:00 PM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Pro 9391 Omaha, NE | Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insurance Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by jmcconne Originally posted by dmiller5 While I am a white male, I was born in the outskirts of Detroit. If that counts for anything. If I had the same parents that instilled the same values including the great importance of education, I'm pretty sure I'd be pretty close. Obviously being white and handsome (not sure if you knew I was good looking) likely provided me some advantages, but I'd be willing to bet working hard from elementary school through grad school and not getting into drugs or other bad habits had more of an affect. Originally posted by jmcconne Originally posted by dmiller5 > Worst answer ever.... I'm fine with ACA, but this type of comment makes me think twice. and the fruits of your labors are there for you because of your privileged place in society. So if you were born a black woman in the outskirts of Detroit, you'd be in the same place you are now? What if you parents were drug addicts that taught you your whole life that working hard gets you no where. My point is that the situation you were born in to impacts your opportunities. People in this country are racist. People in the country are sexist. People in this country discriminate about lots of things. Pretending like a Christian, white, good looking male doesn't have advantages of others is total BS. Now you can argue that these things can be overcome, fine. But pretending like they don't exist, because YOU want to believe that your success is due solely to your own hard work, and not some amount of luck or generosity from others is total crap. Someone, somewhere threw you a bone, or taught you a lesson, or gave you a job etc. etc. etc. that helped you succeed. As a more wealthy person you are more likely to receive this assistance. As a person born in a certain place you are more likely to receive this assistance. ETA: And if you got really sick when you were homeless, and couldn't afford healthcare, you sure as shootin wouldn't have made it where you are. you would have died. Healthcare shouldn't be a flippin privilege. it should be a right that every HUMAN BEING has, no matter if they are lucky enough to have a good job with benefits or not,. All I have to say is Wow. care to explain? I mean to me the argument that we shouldn't provide universal healthcare is "wow" My wow had nothing to do with the ACA. I am absolutely stunned that you truly believe that the only way to get ahead in this country is to be born in the right place, be the right race, and to the right income bracket. I mean seriously, why even try if that's what you believe. The irony of your whole rant is that you display the exact racism, sexism, and classism that you're deploring by saying that none of these people can succeed due to their race/sex/class unless somebody else gives them a hand up. /facepalm Yes, there are challenges that we all face in this life and yes a minority will have obstacles that I do not face, but I also have had a lot of obstacles that most minorities will never face. We're all different and we all have choices every day that effect the rest of our lives. If our choices are derived from "I am X so I can't succeed" then guess what, you will fail. |
| 2015-06-01 4:13 PM in reply to: tuwood |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insurance Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by jmcconne Originally posted by dmiller5 While I am a white male, I was born in the outskirts of Detroit. If that counts for anything. If I had the same parents that instilled the same values including the great importance of education, I'm pretty sure I'd be pretty close. Obviously being white and handsome (not sure if you knew I was good looking) likely provided me some advantages, but I'd be willing to bet working hard from elementary school through grad school and not getting into drugs or other bad habits had more of an affect. Originally posted by jmcconne Originally posted by dmiller5 > Worst answer ever.... I'm fine with ACA, but this type of comment makes me think twice. and the fruits of your labors are there for you because of your privileged place in society. So if you were born a black woman in the outskirts of Detroit, you'd be in the same place you are now? What if you parents were drug addicts that taught you your whole life that working hard gets you no where. My point is that the situation you were born in to impacts your opportunities. People in this country are racist. People in the country are sexist. People in this country discriminate about lots of things. Pretending like a Christian, white, good looking male doesn't have advantages of others is total BS. Now you can argue that these things can be overcome, fine. But pretending like they don't exist, because YOU want to believe that your success is due solely to your own hard work, and not some amount of luck or generosity from others is total crap. Someone, somewhere threw you a bone, or taught you a lesson, or gave you a job etc. etc. etc. that helped you succeed. As a more wealthy person you are more likely to receive this assistance. As a person born in a certain place you are more likely to receive this assistance. ETA: And if you got really sick when you were homeless, and couldn't afford healthcare, you sure as shootin wouldn't have made it where you are. you would have died. Healthcare shouldn't be a flippin privilege. it should be a right that every HUMAN BEING has, no matter if they are lucky enough to have a good job with benefits or not,. All I have to say is Wow. care to explain? I mean to me the argument that we shouldn't provide universal healthcare is "wow" My wow had nothing to do with the ACA. I am absolutely stunned that you truly believe that the only way to get ahead in this country is to be born in the right place, be the right race, and to the right income bracket. I mean seriously, why even try if that's what you believe. The irony of your whole rant is that you display the exact racism, sexism, and classism that you're deploring by saying that none of these people can succeed due to their race/sex/class unless somebody else gives them a hand up. /facepalm Yes, there are challenges that we all face in this life and yes a minority will have obstacles that I do not face, but I also have had a lot of obstacles that most minorities will never face. We're all different and we all have choices every day that effect the rest of our lives. If our choices are derived from "I am X so I can't succeed" then guess what, you will fail. Well you're absolutely stunned because you're reading what you want to read. I didn't say those people can't succeed, and it isn't racism, sexism, or classism to point out that racism, sexism, and classism exist. I said that most people who succeed, have help along the way. And that your race, gender, looks, affluence etc. are factors in who will help you. example: one of my college roomates got arrested for possession with intent to distribute. Rich white kid with lawyer parents. Got off with a night in jail, drug testing, and nothing on his record if he didn't get popped again. You think this happens to a poor black kid in the projects? no. he goes to jail, is in the system, and now his life has just become a lot more difficult. forever. |
| 2015-06-01 5:40 PM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 15655 | Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insurance Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by tuwood Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by jmcconne Originally posted by dmiller5 While I am a white male, I was born in the outskirts of Detroit. If that counts for anything. If I had the same parents that instilled the same values including the great importance of education, I'm pretty sure I'd be pretty close. Obviously being white and handsome (not sure if you knew I was good looking) likely provided me some advantages, but I'd be willing to bet working hard from elementary school through grad school and not getting into drugs or other bad habits had more of an affect. Originally posted by jmcconne Originally posted by dmiller5 > Worst answer ever.... I'm fine with ACA, but this type of comment makes me think twice. and the fruits of your labors are there for you because of your privileged place in society. So if you were born a black woman in the outskirts of Detroit, you'd be in the same place you are now? What if you parents were drug addicts that taught you your whole life that working hard gets you no where. My point is that the situation you were born in to impacts your opportunities. People in this country are racist. People in the country are sexist. People in this country discriminate about lots of things. Pretending like a Christian, white, good looking male doesn't have advantages of others is total BS. Now you can argue that these things can be overcome, fine. But pretending like they don't exist, because YOU want to believe that your success is due solely to your own hard work, and not some amount of luck or generosity from others is total crap. Someone, somewhere threw you a bone, or taught you a lesson, or gave you a job etc. etc. etc. that helped you succeed. As a more wealthy person you are more likely to receive this assistance. As a person born in a certain place you are more likely to receive this assistance. ETA: And if you got really sick when you were homeless, and couldn't afford healthcare, you sure as shootin wouldn't have made it where you are. you would have died. Healthcare shouldn't be a flippin privilege. it should be a right that every HUMAN BEING has, no matter if they are lucky enough to have a good job with benefits or not,. All I have to say is Wow. care to explain? I mean to me the argument that we shouldn't provide universal healthcare is "wow" My wow had nothing to do with the ACA. I am absolutely stunned that you truly believe that the only way to get ahead in this country is to be born in the right place, be the right race, and to the right income bracket. I mean seriously, why even try if that's what you believe. The irony of your whole rant is that you display the exact racism, sexism, and classism that you're deploring by saying that none of these people can succeed due to their race/sex/class unless somebody else gives them a hand up. /facepalm Yes, there are challenges that we all face in this life and yes a minority will have obstacles that I do not face, but I also have had a lot of obstacles that most minorities will never face. We're all different and we all have choices every day that effect the rest of our lives. If our choices are derived from "I am X so I can't succeed" then guess what, you will fail. Well you're absolutely stunned because you're reading what you want to read. I didn't say those people can't succeed, and it isn't racism, sexism, or classism to point out that racism, sexism, and classism exist. I said that most people who succeed, have help along the way. And that your race, gender, looks, affluence etc. are factors in who will help you. example: one of my college roomates got arrested for possession with intent to distribute. Rich white kid with lawyer parents. Got off with a night in jail, drug testing, and nothing on his record if he didn't get popped again. You think this happens to a poor black kid in the projects? no. he goes to jail, is in the system, and now his life has just become a lot more difficult. forever. I don't know brother.......in order for it to be that way we all have to be the same. Life is not that way. Some people will always rise to the top, and those people will pull their children and their children with them.....either with money, or work ethic, or other learned and passed down behavior/talent/ethics. No, you can't change that. Most of us aren't wealthy like the kid in your example, but we pass down other traits through generations. I raise my kids in the way I was raised, and the way my grandparents raised my parents. I suspect my children will hold their own kids close and teach them well, no matter what wealth they have to pass on. I don't know the answer to your scenario, but I know you are genuine in your belief that it can/should happen. I respect that view and in some ways wish it could be......my life would be a lot easier. But you're going to have to come up with the way......I don't have a clue how we make society like you would like it to be. There will always be people who are more suited to success, for a variety of reasons. That's part of the flavor of life. I think all people can be treated the same.....and that is the part of your post that I absolutely agree with.....but it doesn't mean a certain percentage won't go sideways and push themselves downward. Once they do that, really, it's a deeeeep hole to dig out of. Sometimes it affects generations. Good luck with that. Edited by Left Brain 2015-06-01 5:46 PM |
| 2015-06-01 10:02 PM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insurance Of course people are born into different situations. And of course people are different and have different aptitudes. We will never all be equal, or have equal stations in life. Because you are a human being. All human beings deserve to be treated like human beings. Not just the rich ones. The argument I keep hearing is essentially "I worked HARD for this money, why should I give up some of it so poor people can have healthcare. Obviously they are poor because they didn't work as hard as I did. They don't deserve healthcare" That is wonderful that you were able to work hard and get where you are in life. I am proud of you, you should be proud of yourself. tuwood, I've heard your story before; not many people have navigated your path so admirably. However, if you don't acknowledge that not everyone has the same opportunity as you do, you're kidding yourself. Some of the poorest among us work the hardest. Some of the kindest have the most terrible tragedies happen in their lives. We as a society get to decide. What makes a human life valuable. Is it what they do with their lives? Is it their race or their gender? Or is it the fact that they are a human being that gives them value.
Edited by dmiller5 2015-06-01 10:04 PM |
| 2015-06-02 8:53 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Member 465 | Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insurance Originally posted by dmiller5 care to explain? I mean to me the argument that we shouldn't provide universal healthcare is "wow" What is it about being a doctor that is different than say....a farmer or a carpenter, We don't demand a farmer to feed us when we are hungry or a carpenter to build a house for us when are cold. Then why do you demand a doctor to heal you when you are sick? I have a right to life and if I don't eat or I don't have shelter I will die. Shouldn't it be my right to take what meat and vegetables I want at the local farmers market and not compensate the farmer? Of course we wouldn't expect a farmer to give his products to me because I am hungry. What is different about the medical profession that makes them subservient to your "rights"? |
| 2015-06-02 9:38 AM in reply to: 0 |
Pro 5761 Bartlett, TN | Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insurance I think there is a difference between helping someone out that needs and just giving it to people. I think a big problem in this country is that everyone feels entitled. A "I deserve what you got" mentality. And I am torn on this as well, I would like for everyone to have what they need to have a happy life, but I do think they should have to either work for it or at least try for it. I see to many people in my city that just expects things, and when I say people, I mean the "rich" and the "poor". I get that there are some things that are out of your control, especially with children. In my city, every school aged child gets free lunches if they are in a certain county. I know people that can afford to pay for lunches that are getting free lunches because they can and it saves them money in the long run. Totally not what this program was designed to do.
Anyways, I could rant for awhile, but basically, I am all for the government helping people, but not doing it all for people. (not including the disabled and the likes in this group) Edited by jford2309 2015-06-02 9:38 AM |
| 2015-06-02 9:44 AM in reply to: Jackemy1 |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insurance Originally posted by Jackemy1 Originally posted by dmiller5 What is it about being a doctor that is different than say....a farmer or a carpenter, We don't demand a farmer to feed us when we are hungry or a carpenter to build a house for us when are cold. Then why do you demand a doctor to heal you when you are sick? I have a right to life and if I don't eat or I don't have shelter I will die. Shouldn't it be my right to take what meat and vegetables I want at the local farmers market and not compensate the farmer? Of course we wouldn't expect a farmer to give his products to me because I am hungry. What is different about the medical profession that makes them subservient to your "rights"? care to explain? I mean to me the argument that we shouldn't provide universal healthcare is "wow" ...the doctor still gets paid. Does the police officer get to decide not to protect you because he thinks you don't work hard enough? or the soldier? (I guess ferguson might tell us yes, the police officer decides)
This isn't about the individual providing the services, this is about the system putting the individual in a position to receive care. |
| 2015-06-02 10:04 AM in reply to: jford2309 |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insurance Originally posted by jford2309 I think there is a difference between helping someone out that needs and just giving it to people. I think a big problem in this country is that everyone feels entitled. A "I deserve what you got" mentality. And I am torn on this as well, I would like for everyone to have what they need to have a happy life, but I do think they should have to either work for it or at least try for it. I see to many people in my city that just expects things, and when I say people, I mean the "rich" and the "poor". I get that there are some things that are out of your control, especially with children. In my city, every school aged child gets free lunches if they are in a certain county. I know people that can afford to pay for lunches that are getting free lunches because they can and it saves them money in the long run. Totally not what this program was designed to do.
Anyways, I could rant for awhile, but basically, I am all for the government helping people, but not doing it all for people. (not including the disabled and the likes in this group) So, I would say that the program does a good thing. Yes, people take advantage of programs like that. But what is the alternative? Don't feed the children who need it because of the ones who don't? Why does that argument only apply to subjects like this? It seems like a much better argument would be, some people shoot other people with guns, therefore no one is allowed to have guns. You say that and they try to tar and feather you. |
| 2015-06-02 3:18 PM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Extreme Veteran 799 | Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insurance Originally posted by dmiller5 ...the doctor still gets paid. Does the police officer get to decide not to protect you because he thinks you don't work hard enough? or the soldier? (I guess ferguson might tell us yes, the police officer decides)
This isn't about the individual providing the services, this is about the system putting the individual in a position to receive care. This is how it would work if we had a single payer system. It would be interesting to see how health care in America would change if we had a system where doctors, surgeons, etc. are paid in a similar fashion to how we pay police officers. |
| 2015-06-03 8:45 AM in reply to: 0 |
Member 465 | Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insurance Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Jackemy1 Originally posted by dmiller5 What is it about being a doctor that is different than say....a farmer or a carpenter, We don't demand a farmer to feed us when we are hungry or a carpenter to build a house for us when are cold. Then why do you demand a doctor to heal you when you are sick? I have a right to life and if I don't eat or I don't have shelter I will die. Shouldn't it be my right to take what meat and vegetables I want at the local farmers market and not compensate the farmer? Of course we wouldn't expect a farmer to give his products to me because I am hungry. What is different about the medical profession that makes them subservient to your "rights"? care to explain? I mean to me the argument that we shouldn't provide universal healthcare is "wow" ...the doctor still gets paid. Does the police officer get to decide not to protect you because he thinks you don't work hard enough? or the soldier? (I guess ferguson might tell us yes, the police officer decides)
This isn't about the individual providing the services, this is about the system putting the individual in a position to receive care. Who pays the doctor if it is not the person receiving the service? With your other occupations they are all example of government employees who are indeed and acknowledge that they are public servants. They understand that they signed up to run towards the chit when it hits the fan. Because a doctor just so happens to invest money and years of time in himself to gain the skill to treat you when you are sick doesn't make that doctor your servant. Now if you are arguing that doctors should be public servants then what you are arguing for is government healthcare and not universal healthcare...big difference. North Korea has government health care and I am pretty sure it is not universal. Edited by Jackemy1 2015-06-03 8:47 AM |
| 2015-06-03 8:51 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insurance Originally posted by Jackemy1 Originally posted by dmiller5 Who pays the doctor if it is not the person receiving the service? With your other occupations they are all example of government employees who are indeed and acknowledge that they are public servants. They understand that they signed up to run towards the chit when it hits the fan. Because a doctor just so happens to invest money and years of time in himself to gain the skill to treat you when you are sick doesn't make that doctor your servant. Now if you are arguing that doctors should be public servants then what you are arguing for is government healthcare and not universal healthcare...big difference. North Korea has government health care and I am pretty sure it is not universal. Originally posted by Jackemy1 Originally posted by dmiller5 What is it about being a doctor that is different than say....a farmer or a carpenter, We don't demand a farmer to feed us when we are hungry or a carpenter to build a house for us when are cold. Then why do you demand a doctor to heal you when you are sick? I have a right to life and if I don't eat or I don't have shelter I will die. Shouldn't it be my right to take what meat and vegetables I want at the local farmers market and not compensate the farmer? Of course we wouldn't expect a farmer to give his products to me because I am hungry. What is different about the medical profession that makes them subservient to your "rights"? care to explain? I mean to me the argument that we shouldn't provide universal healthcare is "wow" ...the doctor still gets paid. Does the police officer get to decide not to protect you because he thinks you don't work hard enough? or the soldier? (I guess ferguson might tell us yes, the police officer decides)
This isn't about the individual providing the services, this is about the system putting the individual in a position to receive care. the doctor gets paid by the insurance company.......... and the insurance for the poor gets paid through government subsidies. aka the taxpayers Edited by dmiller5 2015-06-03 8:53 AM |
| 2015-06-03 9:22 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Member 465 | Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insurance Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Jackemy1 Originally posted by dmiller5 Who pays the doctor if it is not the person receiving the service? With your other occupations they are all example of government employees who are indeed and acknowledge that they are public servants. They understand that they signed up to run towards the chit when it hits the fan. Because a doctor just so happens to invest money and years of time in himself to gain the skill to treat you when you are sick doesn't make that doctor your servant. Now if you are arguing that doctors should be public servants then what you are arguing for is government healthcare and not universal healthcare...big difference. North Korea has government health care and I am pretty sure it is not universal. Originally posted by Jackemy1 Originally posted by dmiller5 What is it about being a doctor that is different than say....a farmer or a carpenter, We don't demand a farmer to feed us when we are hungry or a carpenter to build a house for us when are cold. Then why do you demand a doctor to heal you when you are sick? I have a right to life and if I don't eat or I don't have shelter I will die. Shouldn't it be my right to take what meat and vegetables I want at the local farmers market and not compensate the farmer? Of course we wouldn't expect a farmer to give his products to me because I am hungry. What is different about the medical profession that makes them subservient to your "rights"? care to explain? I mean to me the argument that we shouldn't provide universal healthcare is "wow" ...the doctor still gets paid. Does the police officer get to decide not to protect you because he thinks you don't work hard enough? or the soldier? (I guess ferguson might tell us yes, the police officer decides)
This isn't about the individual providing the services, this is about the system putting the individual in a position to receive care. the doctor gets paid by the insurance company.......... and the insurance for the poor gets paid through government subsidies. aka the taxpayers But if healthcare is a "right" there would be no market for insurance companies to sell policies to have the funds to pay doctors. It is my right to be treated by a doctor for whatever ails me regardless of my economic status....correct? So why would I have to buy an insurance policy to exercise my human right? . |
| 2015-06-03 9:33 AM in reply to: Jackemy1 |
Champion 6993 Chicago, Illinois | Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insurance because in first world you do not really have not many rights that do not involve levels of other people. 90% of us we have the right to eat but we still have to go to the store to buy it. You can not just go around randomly killing animals or growing food where ever you want. Do not forget if people got paid a living wage there would not way less of a need for government help. |
| 2015-06-03 10:26 AM in reply to: 0 |
Member 465 | Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insurance Originally posted by chirunner134 because in first world you do not really have not many rights that do not involve levels of other people. 90% of us we have the right to eat but we still have to go to the store to buy it. You can not just go around randomly killing animals or growing food where ever you want. Do not forget if people got paid a living wage there would not way less of a need for government help. How about in first world, or in any world for that matter, you have no rights that involve the servitude of someone's labor to fulfill. It is a privilege that I live in a society that has a highly developed food distribution process, serviced by thousands of people who are not doing it to provide me charity but to profit from their labor, so that I can just go to the store and buy something to eat with money I earned at my job which I am a lot better at than hunting. Imagine if I had to go out and kill my own food? I would probably starve. Edited by Jackemy1 2015-06-03 10:27 AM |
| 2015-06-03 10:49 AM in reply to: Jackemy1 |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insurance Originally posted by Jackemy1 Originally posted by chirunner134 because in first world you do not really have not many rights that do not involve levels of other people. 90% of us we have the right to eat but we still have to go to the store to buy it. You can not just go around randomly killing animals or growing food where ever you want. Do not forget if people got paid a living wage there would not way less of a need for government help. How about in first world, or in any world for that matter, you have no rights that involve the servitude of someone's labor to fulfill. It is a privilege that I live in a society that has a highly developed food distribution process, serviced by thousands of people who are not doing it to provide me charity but to profit from their labor, so that I can just go to the store and buy something to eat with money I earned at my job which I am a lot better at than hunting. Imagine if I had to go out and kill my own food? I would probably starve. Your argument doesn't make any sense. THE DOCTORS GET PAID. The question is, who provides the money to pay the doctors. I don't care how hard you think you work. Without the structure of the society you wouldn't have the life you do now. You have your position on the backs of all the people lower than you. |
| 2015-06-03 11:16 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Extreme Veteran 799 | Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insurance Originally posted by dmiller5 You have your position on the backs of all the people lower than you. I think this is an example of where your point gets lost and starts to pit people against you. Obviously crack heads who rob people have had no positive impact on my position in life. They are currently parasites to our society. I see two points that can be successfully argued that will lead people to demand everyone chips in for health care for those who cannot currently afford it. 1. They are people who have made poor choices. Many (but not all) were born into bad situations that have increased the possibility of them making these poor choices. Those that were born into it, had bad luck, or have actively made poor choices, deserve a chance to be healthy and a solid opportunity to be happy. 2. It is more cost effective to try to help people proactively, then it is to pay it later. We have laws that most people agree to that say hospitals cannot allow a person to die because they cannot pay. If we provide people with the ability to receive medical care for small issues that cost less, then we will save money from having to pay for emergency life saving procedures. I think the argument that everyone, for no other reason than they exist, deserves anything that requires others to expend time or resources fails, because (while a small percentage of people) there are people who do not deserve anything due to choices they have and are actively making. |
| 2015-06-03 11:29 AM in reply to: 0 |
Extreme Veteran 3025 Maryland | Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insurance Originally posted by jmcconne Originally posted by dmiller5 You have your position on the backs of all the people lower than you. I think this is an example of where your point gets lost and starts to pit people against you. Obviously crack heads who rob people have had no positive impact on my position in life. They are currently parasites to our society. I see two points that can be successfully argued that will lead people to demand everyone chips in for health care for those who cannot currently afford it. 1. They are people who have made poor choices. Many (but not all) were born into bad situations that have increased the possibility of them making these poor choices. Those that were born into it, had bad luck, or have actively made poor choices, deserve a chance to be healthy and a solid opportunity to be happy. 2. It is more cost effective to try to help people proactively, then it is to pay it later. We have laws that most people agree to that say hospitals cannot allow a person to die because they cannot pay. If we provide people with the ability to receive medical care for small issues that cost less, then we will save money from having to pay for emergency life saving procedures. I think the argument that everyone, for no other reason than they exist, deserves anything that requires others to expend time or resources fails, because (while a small percentage of people) there are people who do not deserve anything due to choices they have and are actively making. In that case you and I have a fundamental disagreement. People do not deserve to be treated well because of what they do for you. They do not deserve to be treated well because of the good choices they've made. Human beings deserve to be treated well because they are human beings. Period. Teachers deserve healthcare. Lawyers deserve healthcare. The illegal immigrants who pick your food deserve healthcare. Crackheads, Thieves and murderers deserve healthcare. The failure to take care of these people becomes a failure of the society. The "best" country in the world has the largest incarceration rate, and is one of the only developed nations to not provide healthcare and affordable education for its citizens. ETA: and you DO have your position on the backs of those below you. This doesn't mean that every single person in the country has directly contributed to your success, but many have. The illegal immigrant that picks your food makes it cheap, and allows you to pursue other activities, like your job. The crackheads provide job security for police, and for drug companies, and for therapists. Edited by dmiller5 2015-06-03 11:34 AM |
| 2015-06-03 11:32 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Extreme Veteran 799 | Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insurance Originally posted by dmiller5 Your argument doesn't make any sense. THE DOCTORS GET PAID. The question is, who provides the money to pay the doctors. The doctor would only get paid what the government would allow, which does not have be based on much of anything. Certainly not supply and demand. I know of doctors who have stopped taking medicare patients because the cost isn't worth the expended resources and effort. |
| 2015-06-03 11:37 AM in reply to: dmiller5 |
Extreme Veteran 799 | Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insurance Originally posted by dmiller5 In that case you and I have a fundamental disagreement. People do not deserve to be treated well because of what they do for you. I believe I have the responsibility to treat and do for others, but I do not believe I have the right to force others to do so. I think this is where our main disagreement lies. |
| 2015-06-03 12:23 PM in reply to: 0 |
Member 465 | Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insurance Originally posted by dmiller5 Originally posted by Jackemy1 Originally posted by chirunner134 because in first world you do not really have not many rights that do not involve levels of other people. 90% of us we have the right to eat but we still have to go to the store to buy it. You can not just go around randomly killing animals or growing food where ever you want. Do not forget if people got paid a living wage there would not way less of a need for government help. How about in first world, or in any world for that matter, you have no rights that involve the servitude of someone's labor to fulfill. It is a privilege that I live in a society that has a highly developed food distribution process, serviced by thousands of people who are not doing it to provide me charity but to profit from their labor, so that I can just go to the store and buy something to eat with money I earned at my job which I am a lot better at than hunting. Imagine if I had to go out and kill my own food? I would probably starve. Your argument doesn't make any sense. THE DOCTORS GET PAID. The question is, who provides the money to pay the doctors. I don't care how hard you think you work. Without the structure of the society you wouldn't have the life you do now. You have your position on the backs of all the people lower than you. See the thing with Socialism, other that being good for everyone except the Socialist, is belief that one person's rights are more important than another's . Your rights are more important than mine. The rich person rights are below that of the poor's, The skilled persons rights are less important than the unskilled. The advantage class must always yield their rights to the disadvantaged. It is a never ending erosion of the individual for the benefit of the people. The attempt to engineer an equal society in eyes of the Socialist always creates a society that anything but equal. I believe that no one person should have no more or less rights under the law and under whatever natural law we were created under than any other individual and you don't. That it why we will never agree. Edited by Jackemy1 2015-06-03 12:28 PM |
| 2015-06-04 10:38 AM in reply to: chirunner134 |
Master 2946 Centennial, CO | Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insurance Originally posted by chirunner134 Do not forget if people chose a job where they would get paid a living wage there would not way less of a need for government help. Fixed it for you. The job you take is a choice you make. |
| 2015-06-04 11:07 AM in reply to: velocomp |
Champion 6993 Chicago, Illinois | Subject: RE: ACA and You can keep your health insurance Originally posted by velocomp Originally posted by chirunner134 Do not forget if people chose a job where they would get paid a living wage there would not way less of a need for government help. Fixed it for you. The job you take is a choice you make. Are you saying the job you can get is always a choice? Not really. Many cases you take what you can get. I took a job once because only one I could get in my field. I had to move cross country for the temp job which only lasted 2.5 months when it was suppose to last a 1 year+. Thanks congress for that. Lucky when the job got funded again I had a job back in Chicago area where I am from. Then I did not have to move back to Maryland just to have employment. The job Also was also not good because I went for a java programming job and found out it was PL/SQL only programming job after I walked into the door but at that time it was too late. If I knew it was a PL/SQL job I would not have bothered to move. In the 3 months I had between the Maryland temp job and the part time programming job I got I had 3 or 4 interviews that I got with several staffing agencies. Biggest issue I had after I came back was even though I had 3 years experience with Object Orientated programming languages since my last job was PL/SQL developer I was being sent on a PL/SQL programmer interviews. Staffing Agencies told me I could only be sent on those interviews because that was my last job even though that is not my strength or area of expertise and only had 2.5 months of experience. |
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