Andrew Haberkorn's Group - FULL (Page 20)

Hi Guys - I've been a bit MIA over the past few days.  Recently I've developed some pain on the outside of my left heel.  It feels almost like a bruise.  In any case, I'm taking a few days off from running to see what it does.  It's frustrating but my gut tells me that a few days off might be all I need.  I have a lot going on with work and school so a couple days off might do me some good on the mental side of things as well.

I went to my LBS the other day to oggle over the bikes and chat with the guys.  I ordered a few things for my Thule racks in preparation for my bike purchase and picked up a floor pump.  I should be able to scoop up my bike a week or two.  I'm just waiting on Uncle Sam to deposit my loot.

@microspawn - Congrats on your marathon.  It might not have gone down the way you planned but it sounds like you had an alright time anyway.  To quote Vanilla Sky: Without the sour, the sweet ain't as sweet.  I read your race report and checked out your pictures.  I have the same shirt that your wore.  I should talk to Champion about a sponsorship deal.  I have tons of their clothes.

@andrew - I'm digging your website.  I really like your AH logo and color scheme.

That's it for me right now.  Keep on trucking, peeps. 

A few days off from running is likely exactly what the doctor ordered here.  A few suggestions on things you can do to help speed the recovery and not lose fitness...

1) Icing.  You know this already.  Everyone knows this.  But it's a pain in the a$$, and let's be honest, painful.  The problem I always had with icing was having enough ice to fill a bag or bucket and the fact that cubes from my freezer were too big to really press against the tender area.  Here's the secret (likely, not so secret)...

DIXIE CUPS!  It's cheap, simple and effective.  Go out and buy some 12oz (or so) paper cups.  Fill them 3/4 full and put in the freezer.  Once frozen, you can take one out quickly and peel back the paper as necessary to reveal the top section of the ice.  Proceed to "massage" the affected area with the ice for 5-7 minutes at a time.  Because you are rubbing the ice directly on your skin you want to avoid icing for too long.  The ice will melt, so make sure you have a towel to catch the water.  I've found this is very helpful when trying to ice specific areas.  This works well as rehab or injury prevention.   

2) Obviously, if you can bike and swim, those are the best options for staying active while experiencing a running injury.  One other option that helps keep the running fitness is pool running.  Head to the pool and jump in the deep end (grab a belt if you have trouble staying afloat, but this can and should be done without).  Proceed to run in place while vertical in the water.  This can be mind-numbing (think bike trainer), but it recruits the same muscles as running, without the pounding.  Really work to mimmic your running form.  Spice things up with some intervals to get your heart rate going.  An example workout could be as follows:

10' Warm-Up (just run in place)
5' Moderate to get the heart rate up
Then do two-times through the following:
5' 10k Pace
2' 5k Pace
1' Mile Pace (or hands out of the water to make it more difficult)
9' Cool Down

Heal up quickly!  Thanks for the kind words regarding the site.
 

The energy isn't really an issue for me.  I find that eating properly (a lot, but healthy) and getting enough sleep make all the difference.  I usually fail on the sleep part, but I'm pretty good with what I'm putting into my body.

That being said, I (and everyone else) has those days where "the wheels fall off."  While it is never great to not hit the workout as planned, it isn't the end of the world either.  My coach and I follow the philosophy of losing the speed, but getting in the duration when things get ugly in a workout.  It looks like you did just that with your run.  

It sounds to me like you have a smart coach.  Sometimes, a day off is EXACTLY what we all need.  For some reason, endurance athletes (myself included) think one missed workout, or an unplanned day off will ruin all of the hard work they've put in.  That just isn't the case, and often, a day off is far more beneficial than slogging through a crap workout.  The key is to figure out when you need to HTFU and push through the fatigue and when you actually need a day off.

Enjoy your day off and make sure you set aside time to just relax, just like you would for a workout.  It's easy to fill your "off day" with activities that take away from your relaxation.  Plan an hour nap or couch session with the same dedication as a hard run...it helps me to actually focus on relaxing when I otherwise wouldn't.

 

"Sometimes, a day off is EXACTLY what we all need.  For some reason, endurance athletes (myself included) think one missed workout, or an unplanned day off will ruin all of the hard work they've put in.  That just isn't the case, and often, a day off is far more beneficial than slogging through a crap workout.  The key is to figure out when you need to HTFU and push through the fatigue and when you actually need a day off."

Hey andrew,
I know what you mean, and for whatever reason, this season I feel more dedicated than I ever have in the past.   Maybe cause I actually placed in a race last year, so that was a huge motivation, but also am going for my first, probably only, Ironman.  When I first made my training schedule, i wanted to do each exercise 3x a week, but wanted an extra running day, so when i created it, i had mon-thurs of two a day training(which enabled me to have frida off), the second week i moved my thurs swim to friday, cause the 2 a day's were killing me.  So now i haven't actually had a day off training in 22 days, nor have I missed a workout in that span.  The only workout i've missed was due to losing my dog, and that was a short swim. 
 The weird thing is I am loving it.  And now that I have that streak going I don't want to take a day off!   But I feel fine, physically and mentally, so I don't think there's any need to.  I'm trying to keep it up through next weekend cause I'm taking my wife on a surprise weekend trip, where I probably will not be doing my long ride.  Anyway, not sure why I felt the need to share all that...just proud I guess.

But I did have a question for you regarding something you talked about in a previous post.  You said that you prefer to train by minutes rather than distance.  I followed a half IM training plan last year that did that, and it was weird for me cause I've always gone by mileage.  You are a ridiculously fast runner, so even if you're having a bad day, you'll cover a lot of miles, myself however, my best days are maybe a sub 9 min mile for no more than 4 miles, maybe 5...but typically, if i'm doing long distance(10+) i can't go faster than 11 min miles if i want to run at a conversation pace. 
I'm asking now, cause I'm giong to be following the same guy's plan but for the full ironman and it goes by minutes.  My worry is that I'll never do the mileage required if i keep following distance.  I think the longest run is maybe 3 hours?  But for me, that'll be like 15-16 miles.  Will that be sufficient for an ironman?  Does my question make sense? 
Can't wait to hear your thoughts. Thanks

As you should be.  I think the most important thing is that you listen to your body and take a break when needed.  Also, a day-off doesn't necessarily mean a day of no activity.  Maybe it is just a 20 minute jog to shake out the legs or cross-training.  Keep up the consistent work, but also pay close attention to how you feel physically AND mentally.  You have a long time before your IM - it doesn't matter if you have a great streak going now if you are going to be burnt out by Sept.  



This is a GREAT question, and one that I'm probably not qualified to answer.  I have never trained for an IM, so I'm hopeful someone else with experience can chime in.  If not, I will talk to my coach and get you his thoughts.  That being said, below are my *personal* thoughts based on what makes sense in my head! Proceed with caution...

I think I touched on this in my previous post that you referenced, but when it comes to long runs/rides when training for an IM or marathon, I believe distance is more important than time.  You have to get your body ready to handle the duration/pounding it will go through during your race.  As you correctly point out, if you have a 3 hour run scheduled, that doesn't necessarily get you the mileage you need.

I think you need to determine what the appropriate distance is for your long rides/runs at a given point in your training cycle and stick to those.  I think training by minutes is okay, but your plan needs to be adjusted based on the workouts specific goal.  A 40 min run for one athlete does not equal a 40 min run for another.  You've pointed out one of the flaws of training by time, as it requires a little more attention to lock in on a particular athlete's needs.

Interested to hear other (more experienced) thoughts...again, I'll get you an answer if we can't answer it here.

Drew

For longer runs time is a more appropriate metric. Regardless of the speed or miles running more than 3 hours is going to be difficult to recover from. That is why many plans use time. It would do you a disservice to prescribe a 20 mile run if you are running 12 minute miles and prescribe at the same mileage to someone running 7 minute miles.

The time is the equalizer for recovery. In addition, when I did my ironman I don’t think I ran for much more than 15 miles (less than 2 and a half hour). However, there was a big bike ride before that run.

I don’t remember which ironman champion said it but (to paraphrase) “I don’t know how you guys complete an ironman in 13 + hours. I would be dead if I had to stay out there that long.” It was not meant as an insult but it did show the differences between athletes.

And this is why I caveat certain advice!  The above makes sense to me as well, but *personally* I would want to make sure I felt comfortable with the longer miles.  As you point out, the duration for me vs. someone else makes a significant difference.  I almost feel like there should be a middle ground or happy medium on time/distance.  Don't want to overdo it...but don't want to underdo it either. 

I understand what you're saying, and I've also heard about 16 miles being the cut off distance for training, very different from training for a marathon.  But at the same time, if you're running slower, the pounding will be less, especially if you incorporate walking.  I've also heard that quote from a pro too, and I can understand it. When I did my marathon, there were people in my group that were training to walk it, and I was more impressed with walkers simply because I could NOT walk that far a distance. I couldn't imagine walking for 7 hours straight. 
But I just looked at the program again, and it has the longest run as a 3 hour run.  I have no idea what kind of shape I'll be in by then, so I don't know what mileage that'll be for me.  I'm guessing by then I'll be doing 11 min miles for that distance.  so that would be roughly 16 miles for me. 
So your thoughts are to stick with  the time training and not worry about mileage?  Would that go for the bike as well?  The longest bike ride it has a 6 hour ride.  Which, where I live, will probably be under 80 miles or so since it's mountainous here and  i tend to pace around 14ish, but closer to 19 on flatter terrain.  course I've never ridden nearly that long on flat terrain so I don't know how fast I'd go. 

Thanks for all the insight though, I really appreciate it. 

Regarding the time issue. I firmly believe that you are only as good as your next workout. If I went out for a 3 hour run it would put me down for several days - several. I just would not be able to recovery to get any effective training for the rest of the week.

I do understand that you want the miles for security purposes - I understand the fear. However, just like a marathon, you don't go run a marathon in preparation for a marathon (especially if finishing the marathon is the main goal). To take it out further, I know a lot of ultra runners. They do not run 50+ miles in their training. They will, however, run two 20 milers on back to back days (B2B) because they can recover much quicker.



FYI - I had my first bike crash of the year last weekend. It gave me an opportunity to revisit the medicine cabinet - check out my post. It is better to have the stuff on hand (JUST IN CASE - not trying to JINX anyone) - http://www.powermultisport.com/2011/02/bike-crash-whats-in-your-med...

Thanks for the tips.  I had no intention of running or cycling the full mileage. I know that you basically train to a point, and the is just will and determination.  I just wanted to be sure that 15-16 miles would be enough for training purposes, same with the cycling.  Is it same to assume, and I would be happy to stand corrected, that 80 miles of hilly and mountainous terrain will prepare me for 112 of flat?  

Sorry to hear about your crash.  Though, the fact that you landed head first, from your photo you seem to be in pretty good shape considering that.  I'll never understand why I see cyclists ride without helmets. I just don't understand it.  I mean, you can get a cheap one for $30 that'll do the job.  I think the farthest i've gone without one was about 150 feet, when i accidentally was dropped off on the wrong side of my building and i rode about 5 mph on the side walk.   How is your bike from your crash? did it survive?

I think the biggest bricks that I did for IM training was about 80 miles with a 12 - 15 mile run afterward. I did however do a least a couple of centuries on the bike - but I like the bike. I also trained in the deep south in 90+ / 90+ conditions (heat index is ofter well over 100). These were tough days in the middle of the summer.

Regarding my bike, yeah, no damage at all (well, one of the rubber hoods on the shifter is scratched). I took the brunt of the fall.

@ james - incredible story. I am very glad that you are okay, considering the crash. I read that report. I absolutely love your blogs. Your detail in them is very helpful for a noob like me. I was even telling my wife about your wreck. I never thought about the other riders and how that can effect your pace, and potentially an issue. Thank you for your story. What an incredible spill with relatively little collateral damage.

@ rookieIM - I am in the same boat as you. I am very worried about distance. I train for distance because I will need to hit a certain mileage on those race days. I can also see the argument for time as well. Drew suggeted mileage a few pages back if that is how you know that you accomplished something. I need to hit a mileage, otherwise I feel like I just ran.

I had a meeting with a higher up here at work and he identified that I am a destination goal setter. I have tried and tried to workout and get in shape before but nothing ever stuck. Now that I have races to go toward, I have stuck with this longer than I ever have before and am excited to continue. So even on a micro level like a workout, I like to set a task and hit it.

Last night my goal was to run 6 miles in an hour. (my pace seems to always be 10 minutes per mile.) I miscalculated the route and ended up running 6.6+ miles in just over 67 minutes. I was very happy with that since it was the first time ever running when it was chili out. (about 48 degres until about mile 4, then it started dropping rapidly) I have been trying to swim every other day and I seem to be getting worse. There is a masters swim course at the local university that I just found out about 2 days ago and most likely will be joining. 48 dollars per month for essentially up to 20 sessions per month (seems worth it). I will become a student in the summer which then it becomes free.

I am happy with the recovery from my injury and seem to be back where I left off. My first race is May 1st for a half marathon.

I am healing up and thank you for the kind words regarding my blog.

Not to beat a dead horse on this mileage / time metric. They are both used to gauge how long you do something. I actually always use miles – but I also use pace for my runs. So indirectly I am using time as a metric.

I think people get in trouble when they take cookie cutter training plan and apply it to themselves without knowing the intentions of the workout. Like I said, I think it would be a disservice to advise someone to make sure they get their 20 mile run 3 weeks before a marathon if I knew that they were running 12+ minute miles ( 12 x 20 = 4 hours). 4 hours is a long time to be on your feet for a training run.

On the flip side, all of my bicycle trainer sessions are done my time – the miles mean nothing. I set my intervals by time and watts. Who cares about miles? When I ride the bike outdoors I train by routes. I have 20, 30, 40, 50, etc. routes that I ride. Some of them are 55 miles and some of them are 28 miles. It does not matter. However, just as with the trainer sessions, I have intervals of different times that I try to hit difference exertions. If I am with the group that might be a set pull or possibly breaking away or chasing a break away.

Hey Doug,
What you wrote is really funny, it seems we have a lot in common.  First off, as far as the destination runner, I can completely understand that. I was really in that boat during my first marathon training.  Now that I've run 26 miles, I'll never set another distance record, and i have absolutely NO desire to do an ultra.  I don't hate myself enough.  The timing of your post is really funny too, because this season, i've been using my heart rate monitor differently than in the past.  It frustrated me so much to be running what I felt was slow, yet my HR was very high.  This season I've used it, but didn't pay attention on my short runs, but followed it religiously on my long runs.  And in January, in order for me to stay in the 150's I had to run at a 12 min/mile pace.  Today, literally 20 minutes ago, i did a 3.4 mile run, in 10 min/miles and averaged 146.  So getting a lower HR has become my mark instead of distance. So I think with that in mind, it'll help me to train in time, and still feel like I'm making an accomplishment. 
The other part that made me feel like I was reading my own post was that of having no ability to workout/exercises, unless I had a specific goal in mind. I've NEVER maintained any kind of workout regimen before I got into triathlon. 
In fact I actually quit racing in 2009, and in 2010 got back into it mainly because I wanted to get in shape for my honeymoon in november(last year).  I knew the only way I'd stick to it was to race.  And it worked.  I just could never see the point in working out, if the only thing it did for me was made me better at working out. 

Congrats on hitting your goal pace, that's awesome.  Since you messed up your map, were you thinking that you were going a lot slower than you actually were?  it's a great feeling to find out you were actually much faster than you realized.  Not sure what to say about getting worse in your swimming. I've never heard of that before. Most people that are new to it, progress really fast, cause they tend to have awful technique at first.  You'll probably see massive improvements when you start training with the masters group. You'd be amazed how much difference technique makes in swimming compared to the other disciplines. I've seen people who are incredibly fit, struggle like crazy swimming, simply because they have poor technique.    Good luck and stick with it. You'll see improvements pretty quickly.

I do need to watch my heart rate. I have a heat rate monitor that I have to constantly hit the touch part on the front to give me a reading. I know that there are some continuous HR monitors, but dont they all have the chest strap? I am going to buy a garmin gps with HR monitor soon. Does anyone have one that knocks there socks off for a relatively inexpensive price? I will most likely buy either at the dck's sporting goods here or maybe amazon.com. Any models better than others?

If my budget was around 200 dollars, could I get a good one? Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Several years old but it is tough to go wrong with the Garmin Forerunner 305 -

http://www.powermultisport.com/p/equipment.html

Looks like the best price is $128 (with free shipping) at amazon right now.

Edited by microspawn 2011-02-24 2:38 PM

do you know the difference between the 305 and the 405?

the 405 looks substantially smaller. Does the battery last longer in the 305?

People have a love hate relationship with the 405 due to the bezel - reread the reviews on amazon.

I have a 405 that was a gift from my wife.  It does what I need, and because it looks like a "watch" I can wear it when not working out.  (I charge the battery every night because otherwise, it dies on me)

If I was buying my own, I'd have gotten the 305 for the following reasons:

1.  I don't really like the touch bezell that the 405 uses to change screens.
2.  I prefer the 4 read-out display option that the 305 offers.  I like to see time/pace/distance/HR while running.  With the 405, you only have the option to display a max of 3 items.  I have a second setting that just does time & HR that I can bezell into - though I have to remove any gloves I might be wearing during the winter (see complaint #1).

Again, it was a gift (and a total surprise) from my wife and it does everything I need, though I don't trust it's water proofing enough to swim with it.

If you visit DC Rainmaker's site, he'll tell you more about just about any garmin/sport watch available than you ever want to know.
 

+1 on DC Rainmaker - he rocks.

+1 on the 305.  I've never used it, but I researched them extensively and that was the one I was going to get. Based on price and reviews, it sounds like you can't go wrong.  I never got it because my phone tracks my distance fairly well, and i have a HR monitor, so I never really needed to make the purchase.
But if you just want something that'll give you a continuous HR, I got a polar at target for like $40-50 and it does the job. 

Lot's of great discussion here.  I love it!  I thought I'd let you guys know that I just posted a new entry to my site that might be something you'd be interested in reading.  It's about the mental aspects of training/racing.  I'd love to hear your thoughts on the mental aspects of your personal training/racing.

www.andrewhaberkorn.com

Check it out if you have time, obviously, no worries if not!   

Great blog post!  And 100 percent on the mark.  A big part of training, in my opinion, is the mental aspect of it.  You can fail a workout before you even begin by how you are approaching it mentally.  Same goes for life in general.  If you tell yourself that you can't do something, then you are setting yourself up to not doing it. 

I try to approach all of my training with the can do attitude, or die trying :-).   I find that when I tell myself that I can do it, it makes it so much easier to convince my body that I can.  And more times than not, my body listens and gets done what I am asking it to do.

When I am training with the Tri club and hear someone say they can't run that fast, or can't do something, I tell them it's all mental.  That they can do it, they just have to get their head in the game. 

Drew, nice website! I agree with you on attitude. Your energy comes from your brain, as much, if not more than your body. I am trying to control that voice in my head...at least the crabby whiney negative one....she is VERY LOUD sometimes!! Haha! Hey all - have a great weekend! Stay healthy and train well.
Thanks for all the tech info earlier on the page. I'll make a note of it for future reference.
Holly