Fast Twitch Tri-FULL (Page 20)

GANG!

Reading the accounts above from SHANA and DONTO about training successes using non-conventional methods makes me think of somehting else that can be added to a list of "Triathlon Orthodoxies", and that would be cross-training.  My list for cross-training is about as conventional as it gets;

• lifting
• Yoga
• cross-contry skiing
• Concept 2 rowing

While I enjoy all three of those to varying degrees, I can honestly say that NONE of this has conferred any almost-immediate benefits for me along the lines of what SHANA and DONTO describe.

So, the off-season is here............and how do we plan to spend it?  There has been some talk about rest and recovery, and I threw out that "assignment" about cadence (and I'm not done with that yet) as a way to get us thinking about adding speed to our off-season training --- but what else??

Not that I have the wherewithal to pursue anything beyond the rather staid activities above, but I'm interested in knowing what works as cross-training that is NOT conventional or orthodox!

I've got a 5K this weekend.  Not a turkey trot per se.  It is called the mustache dache and is in conjunction with Movember.  I've been working on my stache since 11/1 and it is looking most excellent if I do say so myself.  My wife hates it but is putting up with it for this month only.  I am excited for the race.  They are promising lots of cowbells and a mechanical bull at the finish line.  I'm aiming to PR and run somewhere in the 17's...I'll report back and let you all know how it shakes out.

AMY -

Well, yeah.  Sometimes the injury scene wears on me too much, and I get to thinking thoughts such as "I'm tired of hurting".  Simple thought, but complex emotions --- and solutions.  I was just reflecting on this past August, which I lost most of to any serious training due to a rather dopey (and preventable) injury.  I'll divulge that one later, just as a cautionary tale for people to not use equipment that is badly worn.  Stay tuned for that!

Your use of "not avoiding them, just minimizing them" could almost become a mantra, and it really has played out that way for me.  I frequently joke that I am "hardly bionic", but the truth is that not many of us are bionic.  Still, I have had a more active injury history than many of my peers (maybe the opposite could be said, too), and so I really do try to minimize the things I can pretty much count on to end up hurting me.

It's surreal, at times, to think that what I choose to do can lead to surgery.  Surgery!  Yikes!  If I had half the sense god gave gravel I would maybe exit stage left immediately and stop beating up my body.......but then I think along your lines of "minimizing" injuries.  And being optimistic here, I have managed to stay really active, and successful, in the face of four "biggies":  tibial stress fracture; torn meniscus; neuroma (and surgical removal of it); torn labrum.   The meniscus might've involved surgery, but it was what is known as a "longitudianl" tear, maenaing it went the length of the meniscus, and so to scope out the damaged part wouldn't meant removing close to half the cartilage ----and you can imagine where that would leave me in another 10-30 years!  So, I just got all patient for about six months and didn't run, and it healed on its own.  Whew!!!  (That was in '06, and while the spectre of it recurring is always there, it has been fine for six years now!)

It is unsettling to see names of guys I have raced against, or just know of through USAT rankings and such, just kind of disappear.  I'm talking about peers here, the 60+ crowd, and last i knew they were deeply committed to triathlon.  Some have returend after a year away, say, and if I see them I find out that yes indeed, they had some woe-- or some surgery for some woe -- that cost them a year.  As I was in '06, they get philosphical about it, and are just very thankful that they were able to return to action; in time, that lost year is just a blip! 

Glass-half-full people have a big advantage in dealing with the bigger setbacks, and as I am generally in that category, I can look back on the past four seasons (since the hip started acting up) as allowing about 40 races.  Some of the shine comes off that when i admit that the larger problems began in spring '11, and while I have managed about 20 races since then.............it has been a bit more problematic. 

BUT STILL!  The training was done, the racing was done, and while this year was a come-down in a nationally-competitive sense, it was still pretty good.  and where the damage was done was post-August, and all that lost training name, and none of it due to the labrum.  That issues have surafced in the past few weeks.............so it goes!

Finally, i am very relieved that you have no hip concerns of your own.  The more I thought about it, the more I fussed that you might be personally worried, but I guess that's not the case.  May it stay that way!!!!

In preparation for my first sprint in 1 month, what are the longest bricks I should do?  Specifically looking at the bike run brick.

Sprint is 400 m swim / 12 m bike / 5k.  I have done a 12 mile ride and 1 mile run brick.

I don't think you necesarily need to do anything longer than what you have done.  Usually after the first mile of running, the jelly feeling leaves my legs and they feel like "normal". 

2 questions for the group...

#1.  Do you do brick workouts? 

During the season I typically do at least 1 run off the bike per week.  I have found it to be a very easy way for me to sneak in a few more run miles per week.

#2.  Do you use compression clothing for recovery?

I do not, but want to hear your thoughts and experiences.  As my run mileage has been coming back up, my legs feel fairly fatigued most of the time.  I am wondering if some compression socks would help with that.  I am really only asking about recovery.  I don't know that I could ever force myself to run with them on .

JOE -

First, welcome back!

Second, about your bricks, I agree with Dan.  At this point you don't need to go "over-long", and if all you did for the next month were more of the same, that would help lots.

At the stage you're at in your tri "careeer", your brick focus should be on getting your running legs under you to the best of their ability.  Dan is right in saying that after a few minutes the "jelly" usually disappears, so doing any more than a mile run off the bike -- for now -- is not necessary.  It may be that the week before the race you might want to go for a second mile off the bike, especially if you truly worry that you won't be able to do that on race day.  that is, it would serve as a confidence-builder, maybe.

More important, though, is working at your bike pacing for the 12 miles, and see where different paces and speeds on the bike leave you as you set out on those brick runs.  I'm sure you'll find differences --- but I'll caution you now that it is likley that no correlation is definitive.  That is, somedays the legs are real happy to run well off the bike, and other days they are as balky as a sway-backed mule.  Still, it is well worth experimenting on different bike paces in your brick rides.

Real nice set of distances for a first sprint, by the way!

DAN -

Nice answer to Joe!

Yes, I do bricks, and no more than one a week.  I have raced enough over the years so that there are few surprises as to how I feel running off the bike, so as opposed to my advice to Joe...........I will often do race-distance "tempo bricks" before and important race.  That is, for an upcoming "A"-priority oly I will do a 40km ride and 10km run, at race-pace.  Mostly, though, my brick runs are 10-15 minutes at race pace or slightly higher (none of my races ever have anything less than a 5km run, which is why i can get away with 3km, say, at faster than my 5km pace.

Yes, I use compression clothing for recovery -- sometimes -- and at that only my calves.  If I feel i have pushed the calves too hard, the calf sleeves will go on in a heartbeat and stay on for a long time.  But as for routine stuff that doesn't have me worried, I seldom bother using them.  I admit that this might be a lazy-man's mistake, as therapy can't get much simpler than compression calf sleeves, but it just never occurs to me.

Even though you didn't ask, i'll tell you anyhow that i have never used the calf sleeves in a race -- or even in a training run, come to think of it.  Before calf sleeves were invented, however, I had a couple of seasons where severe calf cramps would occasionally nail me on the bike, and had I a pair of calf sleeves then, I sure would've worn them in races!

Dan and Steve, 

Thanks so much for the replies.  I'll do 1 per week till race day.  I might stretch it to 2 miles but after that 1 mile, I felt I was in my pace just fine.

Thanks for the tip on bike pacing, I might try a few things on the next couple.

Also, I picked that sprint b/c of the shortness of the swim.  I've still got a loooong way to go on swimming, but looking forward to a fun race.

Thanks for the tips!

I start my bricks ~3-4 weeks of the race.  I'll not only work bike-run but swim-run as our races locally usually involve 100 yards or more of pier & ground into transition distance.  My AG win I picked off a lot of swimmers walking/jogging into T1 where I was running into T1.

Also after my long rides I won't run but will get off the bike and start mowing the yard.  You cannot underestimate the benefits of pushing & walking behind the mower for 45 minutes after a long ride!

My short brick runs I would do after a trainer session, start with 1/4 to 1/2 mile and get up to ~1 mile, but working at near  race pace efforts.

I have to state that I've been racing now since 2004 and have evolved into this level.  I remember my 1st year asking BT how bricks should feel as I could barely run off the bike without getting calf cramps.

#1)  Yes, at least for this year...  I did the Time Crunched 6 week advanced sprint program (trained through one at 4 weeks, peaked for the second and last of season at 6 weeks).  I did pretty much ALL of those workouts as bricks (tried to have

But, in the sprints I felt like I had to be able to hop on the bike and get right to the top of my threshold power and HR, and then get off the bike run at VERY close to my stand-alone 5k pace, or I would not be racing to my potential (never mind podiums - this is about peak performance to me).  So, I did a lot of bricks at pace or with a lot of intensity in them as a by-product of just happening to pick a program (Time Crunched) that had mostly bricks and a lot of intensity.  This translated, for me at least, into being able to GREATLY improve my run off the bike from the start of the 6 weeks to the end of the program (based on actual results and also my "comfort," if that's a word one can use for pushing to the point that your fingertips are numb and you're looking through a tunnel, with transitioning to the next sport).

So, yes, I did use them.  No, I'm not doing them at the moment as I'm not as pedantic about a specific tri-program when I'm not training for a specific event (been running more - we'll see what races I sign up for here in the next month or so, as my wife recovers from nasty shin splints, as that will determine my next few months program).  Yes, I thought that - in my LIMITED experience - it made a difference for being able to shoot out of the transition and peg it.

2) Didn't believe it made a difference.  Physiologically, still not sure it does.  Practically, I don't care, cuz I'm using them and it just feels better!

I started with just calf sleeves after runs or rides of over 90'.  But, that left my thighs not feeling the compression love... So, I bought a pair of 2XU pants (or whatever you call 'em) and am using them post-run, post-ride, post-just-about-anything-that-leaves-my-legs-feeling-flat!

Can't bring myself to run in them, but after reading a couple other posts, I might try the calf sleeves for LSD (which is the most ache-inducing activity for me).  I don't think I will run in compression pants, as I suspect (here's the physiology again...) that they raise HR over baseline a bit (and there are some studies that suggest the same - can't remember where, but I'll see if I can find the refs and post up).

OK - so ends the LSP (long slow post). 

EDIT: Added the blue text, as the word "pedantic" was self-directed (describes getting locked into a program), not meant toward anyone else...M

JOE -

And while you're at it........

On the final mile or so of one or two of your brick rides, do two or three reapeats of the following pairing:

1. Shift to a tougher gearing (big ring, 2nd or 3rd smallest cog in back), get out of the saddle, and do 10-15s of a "standing grind, then
2. Shift to small ring in front and one of your middle cogs and spin for about 15s.

What this does, if you repeat it two of three times, is start to engage some of the muscles that your run might require, but that have spent much (maybe most) of the ride doing not much at all.  I actually use this tactic, and while it works best for me in olympic-distance, I will also use it in a sprint if I feel that I have spent the bulk of the bike in the aero position and sense that my leg muscles are stale.  This is most common in races that are mostly flat, where the urge to stay aero is tough to deny!

Anyhow, give it a try and see if it activates your running muscles at all.  I'm sure it should, and will, and the only adjustments you will maybe have to make are finding the gearings that work best for (a) the standing grind, and (b) the fast spin.  The terrain you are on in that final mile might have something to say about what gears you use, but most races won't ahve you finishing with either a killer climb or a screaming descent!

KATE -

I'm so happy the vice-grip of the rest of your life has eased up enough to allow you to return to the flock.  May this be an on-going situation for you!

No and yes to your question about a plan to fit your particular needs.  The "no" stems from having never seen a plan that combines swim/run/ski, which doesn't mean there isn't one, but I wouldn't make myself crazy trying to find one "that starnges"  (your words, not mine!)

However!!!!  I think yiou have two options, which are:

1. Find any plan you like that is for conventional triathlon needs (that is, with a cycling component), and switch out the bike sessions for skiing instead
2. Find any plan that includes one or two cross-training sessions, and voila! --- that would be you and skiing!

If you are a perpetually busy person and always feel time-crunched, the second one might be the best one, just cuz it would give you a free "pass" on the cycling.  (Just curious -- why no cycling in your sights?)

Another thought comes from the sageness of my former coach, who told me many times that creating a schedule is less of a science and more of an art.  As that applies to you, take a plan that you like for the swim and run parts, and then channel your inner "artist" and craft your skiing sessions to go with the swim and run workouts.  You can do this without any guilt, a sit's all part of being a BALANCED person.  Skiing is clearly very important to you, so make sure you are paying attention to your own needs and wants, and not jettisoning them so as to do other stuff. 

Also remember (and this is part of the art and science perspective) that if you went to 35 coaches and told them how you wanted a training block (say of three weeks duration) that included a swim, three runs, and some skiing........you would get 35 very different plans.  I just say that to encourage you not to get looked into someone else's vision for you IF that vision doesn't meet your needs.

Finally, do a google search on aquathlons, whicha re swim-run events.  There wil undoubtedly be a training plan for the S and the R, and then there will be a spot or two for cross-training --- and that's where your skiing could go.  i will try to remember to look for that as well and see what comes up!

Finally-finally, and with all that said, don't stray too far from an established plan because then you run the risk of reaping few of its benefits.  It may be true that workout plans are more art than science, BUT there is still a science component that has merit, which is really what is drawing you to a training plan in the first place, right? 

Happy hunting, and let me know if you get frustrated by your search, okay?

Thank you so much for your advice!  I will look into those.  I'm a little embarrassed by the no cycling.  Let's just say I'm going to get what appears to be a cyst or something looked at by my doctor that I was hoping would just go away but is not.  It's right on my seat bone and it definitely does not agree with cycling.  I'm hoping that living in Boulder I will not be the first person in to my doctor over this. I took some time off (as my logs clearly show) and it didn't get better.

I actually like the cycling the best- but I really need this to heal so I don't have to sit funny at work all day.  I think I might need a new saddle for my mountain bike since I used it a lot before this started.

I really want to get back to training.  I did a short run today and felt so much better after.

KATE -

Argh, very sorry to learn of that cycling "limiter" ("restricter" is maybe better).   And I'm sure you're right about a doctor in Boulder knowing similar cases, and if that fails, then one of the 293 cycling clubs or 114 triathlon clubs would have somebody who could advise you.

I will just throw this out to you, but I'm sure you're aware of the currently rich world of contoured saddles, or saddles with "cut-outs".  A few years ago that terrain belonged pretty much to the Terry "Fly", but now there are several players in tyat market niche.  Selle has a slew of different models, I think, and Jett has an offering or two.  maybe check out a webiste for Selle; again, i will do that as well.

On that topic of me checking something out ----- I did that with aquathlons, but only got as far as learning that the USAT Aqthln championship was in Washington this past season.  Then I got a phone call, and from there just dervished off to other things -- completely forgetting aqthlns until i saw your new post.  Oops!  So i will try to get back on that trail, looking for aqthln-specific training plans.

Congrats on the run today!  Ain't it sweet when doing one makes the world seem rosier?

I will definitely be doing this on my brick this weekend.  Makes a lot of sense and may help me in that transition from rubbery legs.  Thanks so much and I really appreciate your help.  I'll let you know how it goes.

GANG!

Off-season weight-gain --- wanna talk?   Or simply avoid?

As I navigate through this almost cold-turkey phase of my off-season, the weight is sloooooowly creeeeeeping up.  I have never thought about % gain before, but that concept clicked in a day or two ago. So............

If I view my racing weight at 170 (I prefer 165, but not only is ist hrader to get there, but the math is also harder), then even if I get up to 177 in the off-season, that is just a 4% gain.  That sounds insignificant (or at least less significant than 177!).

The last two mornings i've been at 172.2 (the horror!!), which is about 1.5%, which shouldn't count for much (right?) --- so why "the horror!!" ?

ANYHOW, for those willing to divulge weight details, what kind of leeway do you give yourselves in terms of "acceptable" off-season weight-gain?  And, so you view it in terms of straight weight (i.e., 177), or maybe percent gain (i.e., 4%).

I used to amble up to 180 in the depth of the off-season and felt that was way too much. That's a 10-pound gain, or about 6% up from minimum-best race-weight ---- and I found it fairly difficult to carve it back down to 174, which was when i began to feel there was hope for myself once again.   So, for me, "acceptable" would be 175.............although at that point I will start in with the self-flagellation!

I have a 5 pound range I'm okay with fluctuating within and that is 4% for me.  I'm not a huge scale watcher- but get on once a week or so.  I find about 126- 127 is where I want to be when I'm fit.  If I drop under 125 I struggle to keep weight on and if I get above 130 I struggle to keep weight off.  When I see the scale hit those bounds I just start some small alterations to back in. 

I'm pretty lucky in that I've only really gotten out of bounds once and that is when I was swimming in college I got up to 137ish with massive shoulders etc. and when I stopped I struggled for a few years to get it off.  Oh, and when I was pregnant - but that was only temporary :-)

Yeah.

Math-avoidance aside, I really do have to add two more percentage points, as where I prefer racing is at about 166 pounds; 170 is sort of a "minimum default weight" for racing purposes.

Just trying to be honest here!

Weight…  Funny, but I didn't really think much about it until I started cycling earlier this year (despite being a total chubster as a pre-teen), and not much even then.  I was happily running my 3-4 miles, 3-4 times a week and carrying in the high 180's (would be pretty routinely 188-189, and I'd step on the scale about once every week or two).  At only 5'8" (5'8.25" when I'm wearing shoes!), I was pretty sure that wasn't too heavy, as my previous marathoning weight was about 175.

Amazing how one only sees what one wants to.

Bought the bike (CFO where I work had been pushing to get me on a bike for 2 years, and I liked it a long time ago, so took the plunge).  I recall when I got fitted and bought a pair of (what seemed impossibly goofy then - until I bought some tri kit) bib shorts that the fitter said, "Get 'em small, cuz you're gonna loose a bunch of weight anyway."  I thought, yeah, right - I was MARATHONING at 175, thank you kindly, and a shmancy bike isn't going to get me under THAT weight.

Amazing how one sees the future poorly out of a rear-view mirror.

Started riding, dropped like 10 pounds in a bit over a month (the easy ones).  Read a Bicycling mag that said my ideal weight was 154, and thought, "NFW."  Well, kept riding, threw some runs back in (missed it after a month on the toy).  Then threw in some swims (hey, I'm at the beach, why not swim down to the point and back… and then start going to the pool at the gym we already belong to).  Then thought, "why not get back into a tri or two…"  AND, my wife caught a bit of the same bug - which sure helps.

During all that Summer fun, I dropped more weight than I thought I even could (and only had to reduce the size of my evening ice cream - yes, I'm still eating good food and drinking good beer!).  Got to about 165 for our tri's in early and mid-September.  At that point, I saw some pictures of me (screen saver!) from the high 180's and thought, "dang, that guy's kinda zaftig.  What was I thinking?!?!"

Amazing how… you get the idea.

So, now I'm right about 160 (dropped a few more when I went after the recent HM) and definitely feel better all around.  What is mind-boggling is that even though I've lost the equivalent of a BackStreetBoy in weight (or thereabouts), I still have a slight roll around the middle (definitely not a 6 pack here).  That 154 from Bicycling now actually seems not only doable, but feels like about the right racing weight (OK, maybe just high 150's).  I'm not starving myself, going hungry or counting calories - just eating well, not going off the deep end (and dropping a whole pint of Brigham's vanilla or such) and working out consistently.

I definitely do not want weight to become an obsession.  However, I can see what's coming - a looooooong, cold NE winter with way fewer races on the docket to train for.  Without "carbon in the weather forecast" (as the work CFO - not to be confused with the home-CFO, aka wife - says of lunch riding days), I'm a bit apprehensive about what will happen on the scale during the winter.  It's been fairly easy to this point - just work out a ton, by historical standards (nothing compared to what a lot of folks here do), and the weight drops (faster than I thought possible).

So, to the original post, I have NO IDEA what I'm going to do this Winter or what will happen with the weight or even what my target is.  It's great to be clueless - makes everything an experiment!  Too bad it takes a full flipping year to run each iteration of it, though (which brings to mind like eleventy-three gazillion questions about training plans, but that's a different line of discourse entirely).

I'd like to get to the beginning of the outdoor season here (and, yes, I plan to ride and run outside as much as the weather allows this Winter and am kitted up for it, but some days it's just impossible - so maybe I'll break out the nordic skis&hellip at not more than 165, but I'd REALLY like to get there under 160.  That just might not be possible without major concessions in other areas of my Winter life that I'm not willing to make (like counting calories closely all Winter) - as long as I don't go over 165.    

We'll see what we see, I suppose!

KATE -

Interesting that at that low point of 125 you struggle to keep the pounds on.  That would be very desirable for a lot of people, I think!

I don't work that way at all.  I tend to think of anything under 175 as being a kind of "suppressed" weight, meaning that all the stuff I do keeps it there,a nd without it I aeould naturally drift up to around 180.  But at 6'2" and turning 64 in January, that's a reasonable weight anyhow.  I think.

Were you a 'fly specialist in college?  I have never figured out which of the strokes is most likely to confer massive shoulders on swimmers who have them, and as a one-trick pony myself (just freestyle) I don't have any personal experience with what might enlarge my own shoulders.  Just curious!

Steve,

I've read where some people think weight gain is a good strategy for the winter, not only to rest but to be heavier when you start back into training to build strength. Maybe so for people with BMI in the normal range. I think it would be fine for you to put on some weight. 

I am currently about 178 at 5'10". I have a large build but it is still too heavy. I need to be 167 to be at the highest weight for normal BMI. I'd love to be 165, and would be even happier at 155. In theory, I would be able to run a 5K in under 20 minutes if I weighed 158. That would be nirvana for me.

When I started this whole triathlon thing I weighed 210 and could run 2 miles in about 24 minutes. That weight is long gone and I am happy with my progress thus far, but there is a long way to go before next spring. Personally I am going to try not to gain weight over the winter because it will only make my job harder come January.

Steve,

It's nice to hear that women are not the only ones obsessing over a pound or two   I thought about your post yesterday while I was at the gym weight training.  I was doing my heavy weights and was pleased that I could go back to higher load now that I'm spending less time on endurance cardio.  During race season, I still lift but due to loss of a small bit of muscle, I'm lifting less and just have less strength.  Now in off season, my strength is returning and I'm gaining some of the muscle back.

This doesn't normally equate to weight gain of more than a pound or two though because me with higher muscle mass and a faster metabolism is me burning more calories.  In season, I think I look more like skinny.  Post season I began to look more "ripped"   And I'm not that big a fan of skinny me!

So in short, I say jump into those weights!