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2013-07-08 7:57 AM
in reply to: dustytrails

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Subject: Back to Business
Had a great extended 4th of July weekend watched my son run a 5k called "Finish at the Fifty" at Patriots Stadium. It was really cool to see him run onto the field and finsh at the 50 yard line. Tough race though hot, crowded and they had them run up the ramps to the top of the stadium during the last half mile. I don't even like walking up those ramps.

Time to get back to business going to try and get a few bricks in and some open water swims before my race on the 28th. Water has finally warmed up a bit to a balmy 62F. Working on getting a wetsuit at least two weeks before so I can practice in it. Any suggestions on newbie wetsuits that won't break the bank? Went around and tried a few on which was a workout in and of itself. I could fit into a medum but even with anticiated weight loss I thnk I will go with a large because I felt less restricted. When the weight loss comes I'll just have to put it out on ebay. Talk about 10 pounds fo crap in a 5 pound bag.

Going to try and get more consistent with posting my food intake on myfitnesspal. Anyone else do this to keep track of what they are eating?

Hope everyone had a safe and happy 4th!

Now it is back to business, coundown is now at 20 days.


2013-07-08 9:52 AM
in reply to: JREDFLY

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Subject: RE: Back to Business
Originally posted by JREDFLY

  • Working on getting a wetsuit at least two weeks before so I can practice in it. Any suggestions on newbie wetsuits that won't break the bank? Went around and tried a few on which was a workout in and of itself. I could fit into a medum but even with anticiated weight loss I thnk I will go with a large because I felt less restricted. When the weight loss comes I'll just have to put it out on ebay.
  • Now it is back to business, coundown is now at 20 days.


    Hey James--

    The wetsuit acquisition is tough. I've only bought the one I own now, so I'm not much help. I grabbed it off Ebay and spent about $200 on a Zoot Fusion. It's quite adequate. It seems like the wetsuits start going on sale in the next month or so as the online companies try to dump inventory, so you might be able to get a decent deal. Or, if you know what you generally want, you might try to score a used one at a cheap price just to get through the season and then make the buy late in the year with the deals are best.

    I'd be careful about sizing down. The suits are restrictive anyway and a suit that is too small can really increase resistance on your arms making swimming even more challenging as fatigue sets in that much sooner. I know it takes me a dozen swims to adjust to the restriction before I no longer notice the additional pull against my arms on the stroke. It's not major, but it's enough that even in a half mile swim I feel it is slows me down.

    Good luck with the workouts as you count down to the end of the month.

    Steve



    2013-07-08 10:42 AM
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    Subject: RE: Back to Business

    Originally posted by JREDFLY . . . Went around and tried a few on which was a workout in and of itself.

    Hey James,

    A little tip to help make getting a wetsuit on a bit easier.  Take a plastic grocery bag, put it over your foot or arm, pull the wetsuit on until you see the bag, remove the bag, repeat.  I have also used a large zip-lock bag (I think I prefer those as they aren't as likely to tear as a grocery bag).

    Remember when you are fitting wetsuits - they need to be snug.  If they are too loose you will negate the whole reason you have a wetsuit on - namely to stay warm.  If you get a suit loose enough not to restrict movement it will also not warm the water inside and you will freeze your arse off!



    Edited by k9car363 2013-07-08 7:36 PM
    2013-07-08 11:10 AM
    in reply to: k9car363

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    Subject: Running Question

    I have a couple running questions.  Steve, I think I am directing these at you, however I will be happy to hear from anyone since everyone has more running knowledge than I do.

    1)  I run a couple times a week on a track at a park near my house.  The track is a 1/4 mile, however it is not completely flat.  It gains about 3' elevation in the last 100 yards and loses that elevation at about 200 yards.  Big deal, I know, it is less than 1% grade.  I noticed this morning when I was looking at run splits that my pace actually picks up when I get to the uphill.  To the tune of nearly 1:00 minute per mile. Any ideas as to why?

    2) This is my "real" question - As everyone knows, I am struggling to become 'a runner.'  I still have difficulty running much more than a mile in a stretch.  My pace has been awful, around 15:00 min/mile, including the inevitable walks.  I have noticed over time that my actual run pace when I am running is improving and averages 11:30-12:00 min/mile for the run segments.  This morning, I decided to mix things up a bit - I would run 200 yards, as hard as I could, then walk the balance of the lap, then repeat.  I was able to repeat run paces under 8:00 min/mile and my fastest was 6:37 min/mile.  Granted, it was only a couple hundred yards at a time, however I was ecstatic given that just a few months ago I could not go below 14:00 min/mile no matter what I did.  More importantly for my big picture, I need to get my run pace down into the 8:15-8:30 min/mile range to have a sub 4-hour marathon.

    So, my question is, should I continue doing what I did this morning, working on speed, and let the distance take care of itself; or should I work on distance (aerobic base) and let the speed take care of itself?

    Any suggestions for this fish out of water will be greatly appreciated.

    2013-07-08 5:46 PM
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    Subject: RE: Running Question
    Originally posted by k9car363

    I have a couple running questions.  Steve, I think I am directing these at you, however I will be happy to hear from anyone since everyone has more running knowledge than I do.

    1)  I run a couple times a week on a track at a park near my house.  The track is a 1/4 mile, however it is not completely flat.  It gains about 3' elevation in the last 100 yards and loses that elevation at about 200 yards.  Big deal, I know, it is less than 1% grade.  I noticed this morning when I was looking at run splits that my pace actually picks up when I get to the uphill.  To the tune of nearly 1:00 minute per mile. Any ideas as to why?

    2) This is my "real" question - As everyone knows, I am struggling to become 'a runner.'  I still have difficulty running much more than a mile in a stretch.  My pace has been awful, around 15:00 min/mile, including the inevitable walks.  I have noticed over time that my actual run pace when I am running is improving and averages 11:30-12:00 min/mile for the run segments.  This morning, I decided to mix things up a bit - I would run 200 yards, as hard as I could, then walk the balance of the lap, then repeat.  I was able to repeat run paces under 8:00 min/mile and my fastest was 6:37 min/mile.  Granted, it was only a couple hundred yards at a time, however I was ecstatic given that just a few months ago I could not go below 14:00 min/mile no matter what I did.  More importantly for my big picture, I need to get my run pace down into the 8:15-8:30 min/mile range to have a sub 4-hour marathon.

    So, my question is, should I continue doing what I did this morning, working on speed, and let the distance take care of itself; or should I work on distance (aerobic base) and let the speed take care of itself?

    Any suggestions for this fish out of water will be greatly appreciated.




    Hey Scott:

    I'm not sure what to say on the track "hill" question. I've never experienced a track with elevation gain, even if slight, but then I've never really looked for it either. As you why your pace would get faster on the hill, I really don't know. It could be that you're mentally gearing up for the effort and run it at a faster pace to compensate for the hill. It's also possible that you're just measuring your effort on the 1/4 track and the slight incline happens to coincide with when you're up to speed and running at top speed/form. Just guessing, obviously.

    With regard to your intervals, it's not an either/or answer. You absolutely have to have speed work (with varying interval distances/speeds) as well as the other weekly run workouts. Ideally, your coach will lay out a plan that has a speed work component every week. Week one might be shorter intervals at a very high pace ( X number of 200's @ 7:15/mile?) with a full walking recovery. Week two might be a slightly longer interval at a slightly less aggressive pace (X number of 400's @7:45) with a full walking recovery. Week three might be even longer (X number of 600's or 800's at 8:00-8:15/pace--close to your goal) but with a shorter recovery. But the focus of the weekly interval is to train your body to produce speed, hopefully with reduced recovery periods as the weeks go by. The very fast interval is to train to produce speed. The race pace interval is to start training your body to adjust to a very specific pace you'll need on race day.

    The other running days of the week--presumably at least two more--would be for tempo and distance. The tempo day is about gradually increasing your comfortable cruising speed...starting at maybe 11:00/mile for example. I don't know your current training distances, but this can start at a short distance (1+ mile?) and gradually increase over the weeks as your fitness level for running increases. The weekly distance workout is solely about long, slow distance. The purpose here is to gradually work up to teaching your body to adjust to running a full four hours. So, you would run a very slow, very comfortable pace (15:00 mile?) but gradually and consistently increase the total running workout time as the weeks go by. If you start at 30 minutes for the 15:00/mile pace, then week two you can hopefully push it to 40 minutes, maybe week three, 45 minutes. But eventually, you'll want to work these long slow intervals up to a four hour workout.

    There is ai pretty good book called Run Less Run Faster that has really solid training pace charts. You might have to do some basic calculations to adjust the paces, so the framework is all there. Plus it's a pretty good book about multi-sport training effects.

    You can read about it here:

    http://www.amazon.com/Runners-Faster-Revised-Edition-3-Run-/dp/1609...

    Keep plugging! Based on your email above, you are definitely making progress and getting faster.

    PS--don't run your intervals too fast. Given a mid-point goal of 8:15/mile, I don't see any need to run your shorter, fastest intervals below about a 7:15 pace. You can also build your intervals on Yasso 800's (google it). For these you use your goal marathon pace as the minute time for your 800 yard intervals. So, if you want to run a four hour marathon, you'll eventually need to train to run a long set (10+ intervals with shorter jog recovery) of 800 yard repeats at 4:00 each. If you decide a 4:15 marathon is the goal, then the 800's are run at four minutes, 15 seconds. It's a very simple tool for determining a goal pace for your intervals...but the key is to make sure you have the base fitness to plug in this workout.

    Good luck.

    Steve


    Edited by lutzman 2013-07-08 5:48 PM
    2013-07-08 7:58 PM
    in reply to: lutzman

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    as far as mechanics and running speed.......
    I noticed being speedier in my runs after getting adjusted by a chiropracter massuese.. witch doctor whoever. The longer its been since i have been worked on the slower i run. I am currently considering going to a rolfer to hopefully get "aligned" more permanently.

    Just a thought on a possible contributing cause of your per mile run times. What is your HR during the long runs?

    Mine hangs around 140 bpm when temps in mid 80's and humidity is less than 70 %.

    Totally agree with Steves advice btw


    2013-07-09 6:15 AM
    in reply to: dustytrails

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    Subject: RE: Running Question
    While driving home last night I heard an interview about what sounds like a pretty cool documentary, called "age of champions", about the Senior Olympics here in the States. My aunt (76) has been going for years and having a blast. Held every two years in different cities around the US. As I recall, age groups start at 50. Guess what, we qualify!

    http://ageofchampions.org/

    2013-07-09 6:33 AM
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    Subject: RE: Running Question
    Originally posted by k9car363

    1)  I run a couple times a week on a track at a park near my house.  The track is a 1/4 mile, however it is not completely flat.  It gains about 3' elevation in the last 100 yards and loses that elevation at about 200 yards.  Big deal, I know, it is less than 1% grade.  I noticed this morning when I was looking at run splits that my pace actually picks up when I get to the uphill.  To the tune of nearly 1:00 minute per mile. Any ideas as to why?




    Scott, love these kinds of brain-teaser questions. I remember one from someone who wondered why their swimming pace was faster going one direction in the pool than the other during practice. Never did solve that one :-)

    Any chance that it is a satellite related phenomenon - e.g. the smoothing function for the arcs when going around the track are messing with the pace (if you are measuring pace with a Garmin type device). I don't really know exactly how this works, but I notice on our back country roads that pacing gets a little funky on curves (and to a lesser degree on hills, think trig stuff). Anyway, since the device isn't constantly measuring where you are, curves are actually estimated and I think it is constantly adjusting... so, for example, it might be that it expects you to continue going around a curve in the track, even though you're now on the straightaway... like I said, not sure what exactly is going on, and there's also some error in satellite positioning too.

    On more physical related stuff, maybe you change your gait up vs. down? Or perhaps your full extension is actually before your foot would hit the ground if completely flat? (so on the uphills, your "stroke length" is longer)

    But 1 minute seems like a lot. If I were betting, I'd say you subconsciously attack more difficult challenges :-)

    Stu



    Edited by juneapple 2013-07-09 6:55 AM
    2013-07-09 4:47 PM
    in reply to: lutzman

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    Subject: Tuesday Track Workout
    Here's the workout we did at the track this morning:

    One mile warm up, followed by easy drills--high knees, butt kicks, side lunges, etc.

    5K Group

    800, 400, 800, 400, 800, 400. Each interval is followed by a 90 second walking recovery. Interval pacing on each 800 is your 10K pace with the 400's run slightly faster than your current 5K pace. One mile easy cool down.

    10K Group

    5 X 1200 with 90 second walking recovery between intervals. Intervals starts at a little above 10K pace and increase to slightly faster than 5K pace. One mile easy cool down.

    So, for example purposes, here's what we ran. I'm currently working on a 10K pace around 7:00/mile and I can run a 5K at about 6:30-6:45 pace. So, we ran the first 1200 at about 7:00 pace, #2 at 6:45 pace, #3 at 6:30 pace, #4 at 6:20 pace, #5 at 6:10 pace. As you can see, the first interval was pretty close to my current 10K goal pace and progressed through the final interval at a speed that is slightly faster than my current 5k pace. Good for training the legs/lungs to run slightly faster while dealing with increasing lactic acid from the effort. In addition, the 90 second walking recovery is long enough to start the next interval reasonably fresh.

    Just adjust your intervals to fit your own fitness levels, pacing and race goals remembering that the tendency is to set intervals that are too fast.

    Steve
    2013-07-09 7:16 PM
    in reply to: lutzman

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    Subject: RE: Tuesday Track Workout
    2013-07-10 2:37 PM
    in reply to: lutzman

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    Subject: RE: Tuesday Track Workout
    You'd think since it is so hot that I would want to go swimming, but no...running a lot and some biking. Need to do more swimming. I know I'm losing my swimming fitness. I've run three days in a row and plan on running tomorrow and Friday just to see if I can (I'm pretty sure I can). I need to get my MoJo back for the swim.



    Hope everyone is having a good day!


    2013-07-11 5:20 AM
    in reply to: luv2bhealthy

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    Subject: RE: Tuesday Track Workout
    Well Tsvi, two days to go before the Chris Greene 2 mi swim. Pretty fast field based on the seeding times (not Scott at 18 fast, but fast). The good news is that I probably won't need to stay around for the awards ceremony... hahaha. I say good b/c my daughter is coming home for a visit tomorrow and we're going to a family reunion on Saturday after the swim, so higher priorities for Saturday :-) I look forward to meeting you!

    [yes, Norma, that swim talk was to motivate you!]

    We're still pretty water-logged in the mid-Atlantic. Sounds like we might get a bit of a break this weekend. I don't ever remember a summer rainy stretch like this one. Weird weather patterns for sure. When we get a semi-dry day, everyone starts up their lawn mowers at the same time... lol.

    Busted a spoke on my ride on Monday, so bike is out of commission for the rest of the week. Always dangerous going into bike shops when your bike is getting fixed, especially bike shops staffed by 22 year old Coeur d'Alene finishers who are hoping to Kona qualify in Wales next, and they have a sale on their tri bikes. Fortunately (for my wallet anyway), none in my size.

    Stu
    2013-07-11 8:25 AM
    in reply to: juneapple

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    Subject: RE: Tuesday Track Workout
    Scott and Steve - Thanks for the swimsuit input. With tryng a few on I think I found a happy medium (or in this case it turned out to be a large) to get one that was tight but comforatble enough to swim in.

    Steve - This is great running advice which I am surely going to start using to try and get faster. I was using the Hadd approach (more aerobic focused than anaerobic) but I think you have to put in some serious mileage, at least 40 a week which I haven' had the tme for. Plus it takes a lot of patience because it is marathon focused and I want to get faster for 5k sprints right now.

    Scott not sure if this will help and you may be way beyond this point but when I was first starting out I was 50 pounds heavier and there was no way I could do a track workout. I used the couch to 5k program where I started walking 30 minutes, the next week walked 9 mins. ran 1 min. repeat 3 times, increasing 1 min each week and at the end of week 10 I was running a 5k at a 12 minute mile pace comfortably.

    I feel a lot better now that I lost some weight and I enjoy the track workouts, it makes me feel like an athlete.

    Stu's advice really hit home though, I need to drop another 20 pounds and get up to running a consistant 25 miles per week to start running in the 7s.

    I'm working on it.

    Thanks for all the great input people!!!

    2013-07-11 8:40 AM
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    Subject: RE: Tuesday Track Workout
    Hey TVSI & Stu good luck on your upcoming swim - I know Stu thinks I have a weird taste in heroes but you guys are awesome!!!

    FYI - There is a 8 mile swim up here in Boston that an old friend of mine does, it is from Boston Light into the South Boston L Street bath-house. It is a historic swim which is over 125 years old and wetsuits can not be used. It is run in mid August and they will pull you if you are not done by 5 hours in order to prevent hypothermia. My buddy does the whole eight miles himself but they do have teams which I may like to do some day.

    Anyway I know you guys are going to do great and it will be pretty cool to meet someone from our thead. Have fun!!!

    Edited by JREDFLY 2013-07-11 9:18 AM
    2013-07-11 8:36 PM
    in reply to: lutzman

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    Subject: RE: Running Question

    Originally posted by lutzman

    Ideally, your coach will lay out a plan that has a speed work component every week . . .

    There is a pretty good book called Run Less Run Faster that has really solid training pace charts. You might have to do some basic calculations to adjust the paces, so the framework is all there. Plus it's a pretty good book about multi-sport training effects. You can read about it here: http://www.amazon.com/Runners-Faster-Revised-Edition-3-Run-/dp/1609... Keep plugging! . . .

    You can also build your intervals on Yasso 800's (google it). For these you use your goal marathon pace as the minute time for your 800 yard intervals . . .

    Good luck. Steve

    Hey Steve,

    Thanks for the response.

    My "coach" has decided in his infinite wisdom to drop me.  He helped me put an initial plan together.  I clearly told him I am not a runner and just starting out.  Long story short, he said, "I did not understand that you were a beginning runner.  I do not work with beginners."  WHATEVER.  Trying now to find a new running coach through RRCA, one that is local so that we can actually work together in person.  I think this will all become much more clear when I have a person in front of me to ask questions, etc.

    Thank you for the book referral. It is even available as a Kindle book and it is already on my phone and iPad so I can read it whenever I have a couple spare minutes.

    Yes, I have heard about Yasso 800's.  I figure have to "learn how to walk before I can run," so to speak.  That is definitely on my list for some point in the future.

    Also thanks for the input on training pace.  That is very helpful!

    2013-07-11 8:41 PM
    in reply to: juneapple

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    Subject: RE: Running Question

    Originally posted by juneapple 

    Scott, love these kinds of brain-teaser questions.

     . . . But 1 minute seems like a lot. If I were betting, I'd say you subconsciously attack more difficult challenges :-)

    Stu

    Yeah, that is kinda what I am thinking.  It is funny, until I noticed the elevation change on the GPS tracking I didn't even realize the track wasn't flat.  Now that I know it is there, it looks like Mount Everest as I come up to it.  Guess I just 'try harder' cause I am climbing a 'mountain.'  Surprised



    2013-07-11 8:48 PM
    in reply to: JREDFLY

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    Subject: RE: Tuesday Track Workout

    Originally posted by JREDFLY

    Scott not sure if this will help and you may be way beyond this point but when I was first starting out I was 50 pounds heavier and there was no way I could do a track workout. I used the couch to 5k program where I started walking 30 minutes, the next week walked 9 mins. ran 1 min. repeat 3 times, increasing 1 min each week and at the end of week 10 I was running a 5k at a 12 minute mile pace comfortably. I feel a lot better now that I lost some weight and I enjoy the track workouts, it makes me feel like an athlete . . .

    I have lost about 60 pounds since I started, but still have another 50-60 to go.  I am sure that will help.  I also started with the Couch-2-5K program.  I had just hoped by now I would be running significantly further and faster than I am.  Have to remind myself every now and again that I am not 20 anymore!  Things that were easy back in the day are considerably more difficult now.

    2013-07-11 9:21 PM
    in reply to: k9car363

    Subject: RE: Tuesday Track Workout
    I went to the senior olympics a couple of years ago and did the triathlon - sprint distance. it was in Houston and really fun.
    To qualify for the triathlon you have to have completed 3 triathlons in the year prior to the olympics - i.e. 2012. I did not complete 3 last year so i will have to wait and try and go in 2014. It really is inspiring. The oldest person to complete the triathlon in 2011 was a 91 year old gentleman - he really was a role model.
    2013-07-12 12:54 PM
    in reply to: k9car363

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    Subject: RE: Tuesday Track Workout
    Originally posted by k9car363

    Originally posted by JREDFLY

    I have lost about 60 pounds since I started, but still have another 50-60 to go.  I am sure that will help.  I also started with the Couch-2-5K program.  I had just hoped by now I would be running significantly further and faster than I am.  Have to remind myself every now and again that I am not 20 anymore!  Things that were easy back in the day are considerably more difficult now.




    Scott:

    Don't sell yourself short. Dropping 50+ pounds is a huge accomplishment. However, carrying the additional weight that you still plan to lose can make running a pretty miserable experience. Yet you're still at it! Both swimming and cycling offset the penalty extracted from extra pounds since the water and wheels help carry the load. In running, it's you and your legs which feel every pound with every foot strike.

    As your weight continues to drop, your running will continue to get easier, your times will get faster. A four hour marathon may seem a long way off, but you have no idea how much better your running can be once you can truly train for this part of the sport at your goal weight.

    I haven't been in triathlon very long, but I've been a consistent runner for 30+ years. What I've learned about being a gray guy athlete is everything takes longer than when I was 20 or 30. Extra weight stays around longer. Endurance/speed takes longer to build. Recovery comes more slowly. BUT, while the performance changes are slower, improvement does continue. We just have to think about our timelines, schedules and training plans in way that reflects what we can physically do at 50+ versus what we remember we could do at 20.

    Keep at it!

    Steve
    2013-07-12 5:59 PM
    in reply to: lutzman

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    Liking that new "mug" shot, Linda!
    2013-07-12 8:22 PM
    in reply to: juneapple

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    Originally posted by juneapple

    Liking that new "mug" shot, Linda!


    Stu how didju see it? i didnt post anything since i added the pic.

    I am so jazzed about someone taking the time to be so nice and order and send that mug. Thanks again Guy!

    WHAT EVERYONE GOT GOING THIS WEEKEND ? ? ?

    My Race is next weekend. I been track running race distance every other day..totally ready for Swim leg. I will start last and finish last...but thats okay for now. it is what it is. The bike part intrigues me the most cuz I have never been timed on this bike before and I know its fast.

    I plan on Sleeping a lot this week. Allergies r rampant in central Texas.



    2013-07-13 1:33 PM
    in reply to: dustytrails

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    Subject: RE: crimestoppers? csi
    Originally posted by dustytrails

    Originally posted by juneapple

    Liking that new "mug" shot, Linda!


    Stu how didju see it? i didnt post anything since i added the pic.

    I am so jazzed about someone taking the time to be so nice and order and send that mug. Thanks again Guy!

    WHAT EVERYONE GOT GOING THIS WEEKEND ? ? ?

    My Race is next weekend. I been track running race distance every other day..totally ready for Swim leg. I will start last and finish last...but thats okay for now. it is what it is. The bike part intrigues me the most cuz I have never been timed on this bike before and I know its fast.

    I plan on Sleeping a lot this week. Allergies r rampant in central Texas.




    When you added your picture, it put in on your prior posts! I like it. Nice mug!

    Thanks, Stu, for the swim talk. I am actually going to get in a swim today. I've run every morning for the past 5 days. That is a new PR for me. I've always disliked back-to-back runs, but I did it to help out my running buddy because she isn't getting in much exercise so I decided to see if I could with everything I've got going on exercise-wise. I also plan to ride tomorrow. Considering doing the Tour de Paris next Saturday.
    2013-07-13 7:06 PM
    in reply to: luv2bhealthy

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    Subject: RE: crimestoppers? csi
    Just a quick drive through post. Perfect day for the swim and the water was just the right temp. Will follow-up with a race report eventually. Not a stellar performance for me, lots of cramping the last 1/4 mile or so... almost had to stop. But learned a bunch and got to meet Tsvi and his wife, too!





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    2013-07-14 11:52 AM
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    Subject: RE: crimestoppers? csi
    TWO new photo's on the forum, fun times.
    Thanks for sharing.
    2013-07-14 3:25 PM
    in reply to: 0

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    Subject: RE: crimestoppers? csi
    Originally posted by juneapple

    Just a quick drive through post. Perfect day for the swim and the water was just the right temp. Will follow-up with a race report eventually. Not a stellar performance for me, lots of cramping the last 1/4 mile or so... almost had to stop. But learned a bunch and got to meet Tsvi and his wife, too!




    Thanks for posting!

    Edited by lutzman 2013-07-14 3:25 PM
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