Fast Twitch Tri-FULL (Page 23)

OK, so I had my first swim lesson last night.  The coach at our gym was good enough to do an eval (i.e., he barked at me for 40').  Great guy and very helpful.

The correct form he was looking for isn't THAT far off what I'm doing (that really surprised me).  However, to make just the few modifications was like I was swimming with someone else's body!

I was not bringing my elbow out of the water first and keeping it high (was sort of coming around with my hand).  This led to being just a bit across the centerline on my reach (not pull, thankfully), and having a touch of a circular motion to the whole arm stroke.  Which led to swimming like a "snake in the water" (lots of jokes there) and a more rotation than is aquadynamically good.

Amazingly, the rest of it was OK (kick, body position, etc.).  Not great, but passable...

What surprised me was how HARD it was to get my elbow up as high as it should be.  It felt very awkward to hitch my elbow up that high.  When I finally "got it," though, I definitely moved in a much straighter line.  I wasn't any faster (yet) and did fatigue a bit sooner, as it definitely worked a different part of my delts to recover like that.

So, I'm hoping that this will lead to a more efficient stroke and lower energy swim (or faster at the same output - that's what I want next season... I'll save the efficiency for the season after that and longer distances). 

I'm just glad that I only have 43 years of swimming "wrong" to correct!  Should have gotten my first lesson sooner. 

Anyone else that's gotten lessons late(r) in life and was able to rebuild your stroke?  Curious if this is going to be a constant struggle or one of those things that takes a few thousand yards and starts to feel normal (not feeling like an Olympian - just not thinking about my elbow on EVERY stroke).  I like NOT thinking too much when I'm working out. 

Congrats on the shoes.  One of the great things in any sport is falling in love with your gear!

I'll be curious to hear how they feel after a few runs.  I went to try on Brooks and Newtons at a local running shop a few weeks back, and they steered me to a pair of Saucony ProGrids.  They feel good (I have VERY flat feet and a wide forefoot).  Funny how sometimes you want to fall in love with one thing and end up with another that's actually right for you!  Too many stories there, I'm sure... 

As for cadence, I have trouble counting to big numbers.    So, I've been doing several 30" counts on different portions of the run (a hill, a tempo section, a flat, a recovery jog, etc.).   This thread has me paying much more attention to cadences, and I count every couple of runs, just to see, and this works better than trying to go the whole minute (for me - but I'm slow in so many ways...).

Enjoy the new kicks!

Lots of people are liking the Brooks Pure line. They're just too narrow in the forefoot for me. Hope they give many trouble-free miles.

Question for the group regarding trainer riding:  I've done it rarely in the past since I teach an indoor cycle class and have relied more on that in the winter.  I'd like to spend more time on my bike this winter (it's brand new, I only got one ride in before the weather changed).  I set it up my fluid trainer last week and noticed something odd....the seat was less comfortable than outside after a 50 minute ride.  Is that normal?

Also, what do you do for training?  I had it set up with a certain amount of resistance but I found that in that gear it felt a little too easy; yet when I shifted up it felt a little too hard.  It was almost like it went from light to heavy with nothing in between in the matter of one gear.  Any tips?

What type of plan do you do?  I haven't looked into Sufferfest yet but are there any other options?  Thanks guys!

Totally normal.

I have a pretty set routine I do on the trainer, standing up every 10 minutes (10, 20, 30... etc) at top gear and top resistance (usually 2:00-2:30), then back down. I vary the resistance on the seated portions -- if I'm simulating climbing, I'll keep it higher, if I'm just putting in time, it'll be a little lower (a "feel it" resistance at a good cadence). I've also got a movie going, so I'm getting bored, as I get that most people would be bored riding as I do on the trainer. It's not the active intervals like Sufferfest, but I get plenty of that when I ride on the road.

AMY -

Donto beat me to it by asking about the riser, and that thought came prominently to mind because when I got my first trainer.......I spent several sessions riding slightly downhill until I viewed a Spinervals tape and figured out the error of my ways.  Oops!  And if you don't have a snazzy plastic grooved riser, then for now a wooden vlock will do just fine.  And even though I say "snazzy", it's hardly that; cost, therefore, is very reasonable.

And while we're talkin' cost here.......

If you have just a bit (as in $29.95) of loose change kicking around, try to finsd a copy of Workouts in a Binder - For Indoor Cycling, authored by Dirk Friel and Wes Hobson, and published by Velo Press.  There's 23 pages of useful background info, including definitions and descriptions of workout terminology, and then it's broken into seven categories of drill foci: 

• Endurance (10 workouts)
• Force (8 wrkts)
• Speed Skills (9 wrkts)
• Muscular Endurance (9 wrkts)
• Anaerobic Endurance (9 wrkts)
• Power (8 wrkts)
• Mixed (9 wrkts)

LOTS of great stuff there!!!

KATE -

I'm with Dave concerning low-drop (I've been in Newtons since Nov. '07, with 4mm drop), and even more importantly --- make the transition slowly.  The first bunch of runs should be less than a mile, and if you feel like running more, plan it so you change into (or out of) your conventional running shoes partway through those runs.   But if you want to get a good sense of how your feet and legs and hips rsepond to them, try to use absolute restraint and keep the minimalist runs "pure" -- just whatever minimalist shoe you get.

I'll second Dave once again about calf massage, as you'll almost certainly be engaging the calves in new and potentially stressful ways.  Listen to your Achilles also!

DAVE -

Shoe geek!  Show geek!

But absolutely superb product info there.  Many thanks!

Didn't know there was such a book, sounds interesting, will have to check it out (just checked Amazon, $17.78+, will have to sneak it into my black Friday amazon shopping!).  BTW I have WIAB for swimming, however I've never followed an intensive swim training program and have at best done half of a state workout!

Hi Steve!

oops- I took them out for a try today and ran 2 miles in them.  Truth is they didn't feel all that different- I naturally land on the front of my foot.  My hip flexors are feeling a little sore though.  I will make sure to back off the transition!

BTW- I counted cadence at the start middle and end of my run and got 76 left foot strikes each time.  What does this mean and where do I go from here?

Another question for the group- I'm thinking of signing up for premium membership- what with the sale and all- have you found it useful?  What levels have you tried and what are the benefits?

DONTO -

Yes, it is a bugger to treat.  The best I can do with it (and posterior tibial tendon) is an ice massage ---- ice in a syrofoam cup, with the peeling of the styro exposing another inch or so of ice.  That said, i'm not sure exactly how effectiev it is, although usually for me those lower-leg-wrap-around-ankle pesties are relatively short-lived.

I have maybe had A.R.T. on it (seems I've had it everywhere else!) which, given my implicit faith in my A.R.T. provider, is very likely.  But then again, I think A.R.T. would work for bloody noses and ingrown toenails, so..........

Nice price on the Friel-Hobson book!  and chances are that I bought mine up here, and with the "Price higher in Canada" under the $29.95......it was probably about $34.95 for me.  Garumph.

What do you think the odds are that you will do the 10km....and then see how you emerge from that before deciding on the HM?

KATE -

One miles, two miles, it's all kinda sorta the same!  For you it might be, what with being a forefoot person to begin with.  That should remove much of the potential for calf problems, which is good, and also Achilles.  Now be on the lookout for further hints-of-issues with the joints -- as it the hip area where you're feeling a response, and the knees as well.

Given my injury history, i can be a real noodge about dire warnings of the possible potential for injuries in others.  So, if you are a mostly injury-free person, maybe just make your favorite dismissive sound and ignore my bleatings!

Incredible that you too are an Emerson baby.  They sure know how to turn out stellar childern, don't you think?  (And the vintage crop from 1949 is considered to be especially praiseworthy!)

DONTO again

Half of a well-set workout is better than none, and FWIW, it's been a few years - literally- since I did a serious "prescribed" swim workout.  I wouldn't recommend that to anyone here, and I say it to you only so that you don't beat yourself up over only doing half a workout!

Which reminds me of the Spinervals DVDs, and how brutal they can be --- and how for many of them I haven't made it to completion in one session!  ack!  I'm a fairly strong cyclist, so when he can drop me with some regularity........I gotta respect the riders he has on stage with him.  (I once read that he "fakes" some of the stats he claims for those riders ("127rpm and 467 watts at a heart rate of 196!!  Great work, Nick!!"), but I think that's just sour grapes from any of a legion of people that have been humbled by Coach Troy!

KATE again -

What with ther crash and all, I'm not attending here as I should, and so I haven't yet summarized the possible off-season goals of cadence work for people looking for performance gains in short-course races.  And the off-season is flying onwards, so I will try to get to this within the next day or two.

Short answer, though, is to work at graaaaaadually getting it up to the mid-80s.  That would be a worthy off-season goal for you, but as you start out aim for literally not much more than an extra footstep at a time -- and not even that for an entire run. 

Let me amend that some by saying that if you try 80, say, and can manage it, then you are fine.  It might just be that you naturally have a more rapid footspeed that you normally employ, and that unintentioanlly you have been kind of "dogging it".  That was the case for me when I began increasing mine, but for some people it doesn't come easily and they get real discouraged if they're at 70, say, and struggle mightily to hit 71. 

Also, for me (and most people), there are two steps to the process:  (1) increase footspeed/cadence, and (2) extend it for lomger periods in any given run.  So, getting to 90 for me took several months, I think --- but even longer was getting to the point where I could sustain it for 1km......2km......4km.....7km.......and so on.   Patience is the watchword!

Wicked-awful story of the woman mauled by the deer.  TGFSM that wasn't my scenario! 

If don't mind cutting the run short if I have too, I've DNF'd due to a calf.  But I know Thur will be a full day of beer and food, er food & beer, with neighbors & family coming over for Thanksgiving and could use the calorie expenditure!

TIFFANY -

great resolve on the swimming!  2:00/100 is a fine pace at which to start working on speed, and as for workouts --- if none of the certified fish chime in, I will come up with a couple of simlpe ones for you.

Do you pay any attention to form during those swims?  Of the 2-4/week, maybe choose one (or parts of two) in which you do some form-focused drills.  Are you aware (have ever done?) any work along those lines?

30 minutes a session.........1500-1800 yards.......keep that up and you'll have a very strong swim base that will sit you in good stead heading into NOLA 70.3!

PATTI!

Hugely relievd to see you back here, wondering if your were sytill holed up in a motel, and one that doesn't have computer capabilities.  But seeing as there's no mention of being still inconvenienced by Sandy, I'l assume you're mostly back to normal. 

Offering waht you can is ALWAYS good enough!  The deal here is to get on whenever you can and contribute to the degree that works at any given sitting.  For true!

Congrast on the trukey trot PR....but what's that about rinning through "discomfort"?  I'm hoping it's just feeling that you're working so hard that you think your lungs will explode about the same time your body implodes -- is it just that, and nothing more?

If so, that's the damnedest thing.  i would like a nickel for every time I have backed-off at some point during a red-line run effort.........only to think minutes after finishing that I really could've held on at that tortuous pace for just a bit longer.  Grrr!  So, discomfort and learning to work through it is an ongoing work, but good for you that you cracked the first barrier during the turkey trot.  I gassho in your general direction!

One of the kids just phoned.  I shall return!