Experior's Group - CLOSED (Page 24)

I've had the very same problem, usually in a race scenario. I have plenty of cardio left for the run led, but my quads feel tight, dead or cooked. What do I need to get past this? More bike? More run? Or both?

Good news!  It can be a little depressing to find out just how much is wrong with your stroke (at least, it was, and still is, for me), but better to know than not to know...

The basic problem is that your nice strong heart delivers more oxygen-rich and nutrient-rich blood than your slow-twitch muscle fibers can take up.  (The stuff that the fast-twitch fibers need is already there in the muscle, by and large.  They don't need oxygen, for example.)  So there's a bottle-neck, and your heart slows down to deliver just what can be used.  It's like putting a gigantic fuel pump (your heart) on a 4 cylinder car (your slow-twitch fibers).  Meanwhile, you are pushing harder because you want to go faster; your fast-twitch fibers are recruited to help in the effort.  (You 'go anaerobic', as they say.)  But they tire easily, and so you quickly get tired.  This is a very common situation, because our heart's ability to deliver the goods develops more quickly than our muscles' ability to use them.  Also, people run too fast.

There are two classic ways to progress out of this situation, and I personally like both of them, in tandem. 

1.  SLOW DOWN.  By slowing down, you are relieving your fast-twitch muscles of their duty because you aren't demanding more than what your slow-twitch muscles can deliver.  This means that you don't get as tired, and therefore you can run longer, and therefore you can provide a bigger stimulus to your slow-twitch muscles and the energy systems that feed them.   A good rule of thumb is that when you get back from most of your runs (i.e., all of them except long runs and any sessions involving speedwork), you should feel like you could go right out and do it again.

2. SPEED UP.  It is well documented that one of the best ways to improve your VO2max (your ability to use -- not deliver, but use -- oxygen) is to do short hard intervals.  These intervals are typically between around 2 to 5 minutes, with roughly an equivalent amount of jogging between for recovery.  A good start might be something like the following, in place of a normal 4-5 mile run:

WU: 1 mile very easy ('recovery pace') with 3x30s strides
MS: 8 x (2' @ 5K pace - 10s, 2' easy jogging or walking)
CD: 1 mile very easy ('recovery pace')

If that is too long a run then scale it back to 4 or 6 intervals.  If you can't do 4, I'd say that you need to focus on just running more first before trying this.  But don't skimp on the warm-up or cool-down.  They are already minimal.  I would personally like to see more like 2 miles of warm-up, but I was trying to keep the total distance and time manageable.

As I've said before, be very careful introducing this sort of speedwork.  Listen to your body.  Do it at most once every two weeks.  (If you feel strong and want to do speed work every week, you can alternate these intervals with some other form of speedwork, such as a tempo run, which works other things, like improving lactate threshold).   Be conservative at first until you get a sense for when and how hard you can push, but don't be conservative with the pace.  If you aren't doing the pace, then you aren't getting the benefit, which is achieved because you are working at or near your VO2max.

Also, do bear in mind that I'm no coach.  I'm just telling you what I've read, what I've heard other people do, and what works for me.

Edited by Experior 2010-01-26 9:34 PM

Got my core workout in tonight, now some rest for my early morning swim.

Good night
Sylvain

So the slow run.  It was hard.  At first it was hard to slow down.  Then I got tired and actually had a bit of a challenge keeping 11ish pace.  Very strange.  Not sure if that makes sense b/c I haven't been doing that type of run *at all* or if I just had a really off day.  In any case, I feel a bit like those of you struggling with the swim.  It's like I'm having to rethink the whole approach to run workouts.  I just didn't know squat about running training... different beast than swim training. 

Thanks again to all who have helped illuminate my poor brain these last couple of weeks.

Anyone who would like to be added to the monthly goal chart, just message/inspire me with your goals.  I see Sylvain is already rarin' to go.  Speaking of which, I'm very happy to do a Feb. set of targets, but I'd like to suggest that the first column be changed to something other than weight as the primary goal.  We'll move the weight to a secondary goal for Feb :-) 

Cheers,
Stu

Went to the pool this evening and had a great swim.  Felt real good in the water.  Also did my typical core workout.  I think I either going to add some other movements in or double up on a few of them. 

Michael, thanks for the section on the speed workout for running.  I generally do tempo runs, but will begin at least every other week adding in a Speed Run as you suggested.  I think this will be good for my 5k's for the Sprint Distance Tri's.  

Stu..you mentioned maybe adding another goal for Feb. and moving the weight challenge down to the second goal.  I am looking at adding in some road work on the bike instead of Indoor Cycling Class.  It will be interesting to see how the classes have helped me when I get on the road.  I'll have to gear up a little as the rainy season is still here.  I actually purchased some fenders last fall and haven't installed them yet so I might do that as well.  The bike was an identified limiter for me last season and I wanted to see some improvement for this upcoming Tri season along with my run so I might as well get after it now.  Thanks for pushing us....

That's almost definitely a good sign!  This is exactly what should happen.  You will still feel fatigue, but it is a different fatigue.  Instead of your fast-twitch fibers just giving up, you are fatiguing (among other things) the energy-delivery systems that supply the slow-twitch fibers.  (See the difference?  You are fatiguing them, rather than overwhelming them to the point that more and more fast-twitch fibers are recruited to help.) 

When you run this way, you gain other benefits as well.  You are training your body to use more fat for fuel (surely a good thing!); you are training your brain to focus on firing those slow-twitch muscles; and you are training your mind to deal with this sort of fatigue, which is really, mentally, very different from the kind of fatigue we feel when we burn the candle at both ends.  At the tail end of a long day (like a HIM or IM), that mental training can come in pretty handy.

Brian- yes, the bike was probably my main limiter last season as well and I know that if I'm going to manage the HIM well, my bike conditioning is the key.  I'm guessing that I have to wait another month until I can gear up for biking here in Virginia, but that will definitely be the primary focus of my training in March/April.  I'm also sure that most of my problems on the run were due to not being in good enough shape on the bike, so when I extrapolate that to the HIM distance, I'm seeing major bonk.  But, for now I have to make sure my swim and run have a good base and then as soon as the weather turns here, become Mr. Cycle :-)

Okay, that's a relief (kind of).  It was seriously depressing going out for only 3 miles and then on the last mile struggling at that sluggish pace.  It is counter-intuitive for sure.  So, 2 follow-up questions. 

1) Do I need to bring my endurance pace run distance up slowly?  If I hadn't been in a rush (and tired) yesterday, I would have thought I should have done 8 miles or so at that pace, but now I'm not so sure that a) I can, and b) I should.  I'm guessing that in the long run (haha) the endurance runs should generally be farther, but maybe it's counter-intuitive again.

2) How often should I do endurance paced runs?  Is it like the intervals where they should be mixed in every two weeks or so or should one run each week be a (possibly long) endurance run.

Thanks again Michael... this run training has been a real eye-opener for me!

Stu

Swim went very well again this morning. Tried to count strokes, out of six 25m lenght I was consistent at 10 strokes with my right arm (start with right finnish with right with left extended reaching wall). So that would mean I take about 19 stroke per 25m. I've caught myself using only arms, so I know that if I properly used my lats to pull me I can easely reduce stroke count. Next swim, Friday, I will work with my catch and make sure I pull with my lats throughout the whole workout. This is where my concentration will be untill I no longer have to think about it, well almost. I believe I can safely say that I stay long consistently now without thinking, arms are relaxed on recovery and not using my shoulders. Progress in pool

Lost count again today, only one lap I think. Michael, how do you count again....1,2,4,5,7...

Sylvain

For me I will be doing the long run on Sundays @ normal long run pace that was generated by smartcoach tool on runnersworld.com and on Tuesday I will run a short run, starting at 3 miles graduay increase to 6 miles, at long run pace + 30 sec. I will experiement with that and see how I feel and progress in one month.

Sylvain

See below.  Quick version:  My slowest runs are not my long run.  I prefer to keep the long run faster. I think that's what Sylvain was saying too.



MOST (like 80% or more) of your running should be somewhere in McMillan's 'Endurance Workouts' zone -- that is a fairly wide range, though.  (For example, for me it ranges from 7:20 to 8:50, and there is a huge difference between those paces for me -- 7:20 is a decent clip and 8:50 feels almost like walking).  I personally prefer to save the slower end of this for recovery runs and shorter 'easy' runs.  I like to use the faster end of it for long runs.  I'm not a fan of running long runs at a glacial pace.  But others disagree with this and see the 'long slow run' as the most important workout of the week.  We can talk about that debate another time.

So for instance, referring to McMillan's categories, my running week this week will look something like this (I hope! -- and I'm just using my plan as a convenient example here; it is by no means ideal):

MON:   3 mile recovery
TUE:  3 mile easy (slow end)
WED: 8 mile long (fast end)
THUR: 3 mile recovery
FRI: 1 mile recovery, 6x800 speed (with unlogged recovery jogging between intervals), 1 mile recovery
SAT: OFF
SUN: 3 mile brick as 2 miles tempo, 1 mile recovery

This puts me at:  80% in endurance workouts, 8% stamina workouts, 12% speed workouts

That's not an ideal mix, but it's OK.  On non-intervals weeks I'll have a higher percentage of stamina and lower percentage (probably zero apart from a few strides) of speed.



Edited by Experior 2010-01-27 8:05 AM

There is no mistake that I am SLOW. I have gone from couch to where I am now over the last seven months using my heart rate as the gauge for my running workouts. Mainly because I was somewhat concerned about dropping over. : )I stay in Z2 and lower Z3 for most all my runs. My mile split times have gone from 18min. to around 12min.

Encouraged by the recent posts talking about speed work and the fact that we just did some threshold testing in my spinning class and I was able to maintain my heart rate between 168-172 for 20 minutes, I looked over my running logs over the last few months and came to the conclusion I may not be pushing myself hard enough during my runs. So during last night’s run I pushed it a little. Here is what I did and the results from my log:

***[First day to add some speed work. Again, I use "speed" in quotations. Miles 2,3,4 I ran the first 1/2 miles at threshold then recovered for the second 1/2 mile. Felt pretty good. Will do this first run of the week.

11:47 Avg HR 147 warm up
11:11 Avg HR 162 First 1/2m Thresh
10:45 Avg HR 165 First 1/2m Thresh
10:43 Avg HR 166 First 1/2m Thresh
11:14 Avg HR 164 cool down

Min HR: 109
Avg HR: 161
Max HR: 173]***

I feel good today. No leg soreness to speak of. Best of all I did not drop over. : ) I Hope working in some bursts once a week will help with my overall speed and cardiovascular conditioning. It sure was more fun running at a faster pace and I was even holding back a little. Any comments are welcome.

Phil

Edited by StlPhil 2010-01-27 12:39 PM

Nice!  And by the way, 33% drop in pace over 7 months is awesome.  You should feel very good about that, and the prospect of more speed to come.

While the conventional goals have their place, one of my goals for Feb is increase my average showers / day.  I once read a Jeff Foxworthy-esque triathlon joke: You know you're a triathlete if you take 3+ showers / day...  So far this week, I'm at 2.67 / day.  My goal for the month is to keep ASD over 2.2.

- Mark

Here I was trying to schedule multiple workouts together so I take less showers.

today i back amongst the living. run felt good and then some circuit training. i will survive. but 10 days off was very frustrating. my wife was happy that the alarm wasnt going off at 4:30am. but i have actually missed the beautiful sunrises every morning, and it is also nice having the entire road to yourself. tomorrow the alarm is all set.

I've never been cleaner in my life... sometimes a hint of chlorine to top it all off :-)  ASD rate, I'll add that to my log and no doubt there will be people asking about what new heart rate measure that is... lol.  Love it!

Well, after two swims using workouts in a binder, I must say that I'm really liking it.  I like the fact that there are some longer repeats mixed in with the shorter ones.  It's really showing me that my pacing really sucks.  I can swim slow for hours.  I can swim fast for seconds.  Need to find the middle ground there....

I'm also happy that I finally got started with the Jorge winter program.  I'm seeing a noticeable difference in my cycling strength after only two weeks.  I'm really curious to see how this translates to outdoor riding...

I haven't had a chance to call the swim instructor today.  Busy day at work, and I got a call early this morning that my son honked in gym class, so he's been home all day.  When he hasn't been in bed, he's had his butt on the can and his head in a bucket.  The poor kid is having an awful time right now...

Scout

Thanks Michael, I am happy with the improvement. Do you think the approach I'm taking adding "speed" to the run is sensible?  Would suggest any change in what I'm going to do?

Phil

Something like that went through our family recently.  I felt so bad for my kids.  Now I feel bad for yours.

Swim:  I'm right there with you!  My coach will tell me to do something like 400m, negative splitting every 50m.  I'll get done, all proud of myself, thinking that I dropped 2-3 seconds each time, and she'll then give me the bad news that my splits were nearly even.    I've gotten a little better at this, emphasis on little.

Winter bike plan:  I am also very curious about how it will affect outdoor riding.  I'm in the middle of week 10 of the plan, and also liking it.  I have decent, though not definitive, evidence, that my outdoor riding has improved a good bit.  I did a course (outdoors) on Saturday in very familiar territory; I expected to take around 3 hours and got back quite a bit early.  Of course, lots of factors could be in play here, but I think the plan is one of them.  I also noticed that I was climbing the hills on that course about 1mph faster than I did last year.

Oh, you have so just inspired me to get up early tomorrow!

Honestly, I get sick of taking showers.  Lots of times I just jump in for 15 seconds and call that good enough.  I always take one good one per day, but often after a mid-day workout my only aim is to not smell bad later.

Now logging ASD -- I think we should petition for some sort of new graph in our logs for that!  Maybe 'planned vs. actual' ASD?

Yes, I think it sounds very sensible.  My only suggestions are:  (1) Make sure that you are rested.  You want your quality workouts to be quality.  Don't go into them tired.  I have moved them, or changed them to just an easy run, when I thought I wasn't rested enough to do them well.  (2) Listen to your body.  It sounds like you are doing that already.  If the workouts start making you sore or take more than a day or two to recover from, then it's too much, and you should scale back the frequency (not the intensity!) of your speedwork.

This I can say with confidence:  If you stay consistent and don't injure yourself, you WILL get faster! 

And don't beat yourself up about paces.  (Not saying that you are -- just a reminder for all of us.)  Everybody except the best of the best can find others who are faster.

Thanks for the tips on the trainer.  It was set up correctly and I suppose it is functioning as it should.  I was just thinking it would be a more realistic ride- I'm not spinning like a hamster wheel, but I don't feel as tired as I would be riding in the same gear, at the same cadence, for the same amount of time outside.  At any rate, it's nice to finally be back on the bike after such a long time.


Now it's time for me to get myself into the pool.