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2009-06-22 12:54 PM
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Subject: RE: kalalau's Group - FULL for now
Anybody have and advise for swimming in the ocean? Its it any better then a lake? I am heading down the shore Saturday. I will have more time to train but no hills to train on. I plan to get a lot of bike/runs in. The pool it pretty small to do laps in so I will have to attempt to put in a lot of time in the ocean. Once again something I have never done. (geeze this is a year of doing a lot of things I have never done) I have been in the ocean ...just never actually swam much.


2009-06-22 4:35 PM
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Subject: RE: kalalau's Group - FULL for now

ras26 - 2009-06-20 9:28 AM
Sorry the weather is sucking, Dave.  I think it might clear up soon though so you can do your ride.  I can't imagine doing a long ride right now.  Between Eman and softball the other night, my quads, hip flexors, and back are still pretty sore!  Going to try to get some recovery workouts in this weekend. 

Yep you probably got decently sore from softball, isn't it amazing how that can happen from softball?  I wasn't that sore from Eagleman, it was more tiredness, and I'm trying to get rest during the weekday sessions rather than the weekend long events.  I did end up with my big bike ride on Saturday, while being delayed thrice.  Roger was pulling me out of the car at the start of the ride, since I waited for 2 hours for the rain to stop.  "No!  It's 60 degrees and I have all day to ride, I am not going out while it is pouring buckets!" :-)

 

2009-06-22 4:44 PM
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abbiesue - 2009-06-22 1:54 PM Anybody have and advise for swimming in the ocean? Its it any better then a lake? I am heading down the shore Saturday. I will have more time to train but no hills to train on. I plan to get a lot of bike/runs in. The pool it pretty small to do laps in so I will have to attempt to put in a lot of time in the ocean. Once again something I have never done. (geeze this is a year of doing a lot of things I have never done) I have been in the ocean ...just never actually swam much.

It's going to be worse than a lake, except that you won't likely be fighting the grass on your way out.  You might like an ocean swim though.  Some people have issues with getting sea sickness with the waves.  I have read stories of people throwing up during races.

I myself have more of a problem with not willing to go out far enough to swim by myself.  You have go head out a bit to get past the waves.  I am much more adventurous during a race than I am recreationally.  I think too much about currents, being sucked out, and sharks.  If you are going to swim in the ocean like that, you might want to read up on riptides and what to do if you get in one.  In short, don't fight it, and swim parallel to the beach until the current is not so strong, then you can swim back in.

I found a couple of nice pages on it:

http://www.ehow.com/how_2127949_escape-rip-tide-alive.html

http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/worst_case_scenarios/1289281.html

It's ok that you won't have hills to train on, the additional time spent training will be great.  If you want, you can push the intensity in short bursts during your rides/runs.

Have a great time!  It's going to be great training at the beach.  Awesome.  Drinks lots before and during training, and don't be stupid about sunscreen.

 



Edited by kalalau 2009-06-22 4:47 PM
2009-06-22 4:45 PM
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Subject: RE: kalalau's Group - FULL for now

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Edited by kalalau 2009-06-22 4:46 PM
2009-06-23 8:19 AM
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Subject: RE: kalalau's Group - FULL for now
kalalau - 2009-06-22 5:44 AM

abbiesue - 2009-06-22 1:54 PM Anybody have and advise for swimming in the ocean? Its it any better then a lake? I am heading down the shore Saturday. I will have more time to train but no hills to train on. I plan to get a lot of bike/runs in. The pool it pretty small to do laps in so I will have to attempt to put in a lot of time in the ocean. Once again something I have never done. (geeze this is a year of doing a lot of things I have never done) I have been in the ocean ...just never actually swam much.

It's going to be worse than a lake, except that you won't likely be fighting the grass on your way out.  You might like an ocean swim though.  Some people have issues with getting sea sickness with the waves.  I have read stories of people throwing up during races.

I myself have more of a problem with not willing to go out far enough to swim by myself.  You have go head out a bit to get past the waves.  I am much more adventurous during a race than I am recreationally.  I think too much about currents, being sucked out, and sharks.  If you are going to swim in the ocean like that, you might want to read up on riptides and what to do if you get in one.  In short, don't fight it, and swim parallel to the beach until the current is not so



Hmmm Dave - I would like to say that was comforting...but...no not really...now i have visions of being sucked out to sea and eaten by sharks...i do appreciate the honesty though...maybe I should look into swimming in the bay. I am going to Brigantine Island..they have a triathlon there in August ..I tried to get into it but it sold out really quick i think it is limited to 600...it will be on my list for next year. I still have not signed up for another one this year yet...i am considering the War at the Shore triathlon in Sept- so far it is still open but I wanted to swim in the ocean first...hehehe

Edited by abbiesue 2009-06-23 8:20 AM
2009-06-23 9:37 AM
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Subject: RE: kalalau's Group - FULL for now
abbiesue - 2009-06-23 9:19 AM
kalalau - 2009-06-22 5:44 AM

abbiesue - 2009-06-22 1:54 PM Anybody have and advise for swimming in the ocean? Its it any better then a lake? I am heading down the shore Saturday. I will have more time to train but no hills to train on. I plan to get a lot of bike/runs in. The pool it pretty small to do laps in so I will have to attempt to put in a lot of time in the ocean. Once again something I have never done. (geeze this is a year of doing a lot of things I have never done) I have been in the ocean ...just never actually swam much.

It's going to be worse than a lake, except that you won't likely be fighting the grass on your way out.  You might like an ocean swim though.  Some people have issues with getting sea sickness with the waves.  I have read stories of people throwing up during races.

I myself have more of a problem with not willing to go out far enough to swim by myself.  You have go head out a bit to get past the waves.  I am much more adventurous during a race than I am recreationally.  I think too much about currents, being sucked out, and sharks.  If you are going to swim in the ocean like that, you might want to read up on riptides and what to do if you get in one.  In short, don't fight it, and swim parallel to the beach until the current is not so



Hmmm Dave - I would like to say that was comforting...but...no not really...now i have visions of being sucked out to sea and eaten by sharks...i do appreciate the honesty though...maybe I should look into swimming in the bay. I am going to Brigantine Island..they have a triathlon there in August ..I tried to get into it but it sold out really quick i think it is limited to 600...it will be on my list for next year. I still have not signed up for another one this year yet...i am considering the War at the Shore triathlon in Sept- so far it is still open but I wanted to swim in the ocean first...hehehe



You could still swim in the ocean. I htink the point is that if you don't swim out far enough you'll be dealing with more waves and movement. That doesn't really bother me. When I do my swims I just stay a little outside of where most of the swimmers are.


2009-06-23 9:38 AM
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Subject: RE: kalalau's Group - FULL for now
Becky,

Have you guys chosen any more races for this year?
2009-06-23 11:52 AM
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Subject: RE: kalalau's Group - FULL for now

abbiesue - 2009-06-23 9:19 AM
Hmmm Dave - I would like to say that was comforting...but...no not really...now i have visions of being sucked out to sea and eaten by sharks...i do appreciate the honesty though...maybe I should look into swimming in the bay. I am going to Brigantine Island..they have a triathlon there in August ..I tried to get into it but it sold out really quick i think it is limited to 600...it will be on my list for next year. I still have not signed up for another one this year yet...i am considering the War at the Shore triathlon in Sept- so far it is still open but I wanted to swim in the ocean first...hehehe

Don't let the ocean thing get in the way of you signing up for the race.  During the race, your competitiveness will kick in and you won't care so much.  Plus, they will not have you swimming in conditions that are unsafe, and there will be lots of kayakers around to save you.

A lot of people swim in the ocean.  I get more brave with more people in the water; I might be able to get out beyond the waves.  But even if you didn't go out that far, you can still swim, it would just be more bouncing around.

 

2009-06-24 2:18 PM
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Subject: RE: kalalau's Group - FULL for now
SCamp07 - 2009-06-23 10:38 AM Becky,

Have you guys chosen any more races for this year?


Not yet, besides Baltimore Marathon.  Our gym has a sprint tri that I am going to sign up for.  I think it's like Sept 20.  I wasn't going make it public, but I am kicking around the idea of another HIM this season.  I liked Eagleman and think I could do a little better and don't really want to wait until next year to find out.  Timberman just opened up a few spots, but it is an 11 hour drive and another $250.  A friend did Mooseman earlier this month and absolutely loved it, and Timberman is supposed to be very similar.  Diamondman is a closer option, and much cheaper since it isn't an Mdot, but I have heard negative things about Pirahna and not being well run, especially if you are BOP.  It's also a MUCH smaller race, so it has the chance to be very lonely.  So, that makes me a little nervous about that.  If you have an experiences to share, I am willing to listen. 

The short answer is no, but I'm thinking about it. 
2009-06-24 2:23 PM
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Subject: RE: kalalau's Group - FULL for now
abbiesue - 2009-06-23 9:19 AM
kalalau - 2009-06-22 5:44 AM

abbiesue - 2009-06-22 1:54 PM Anybody have and advise for swimming in the ocean? Its it any better then a lake? I am heading down the shore Saturday. I will have more time to train but no hills to train on. I plan to get a lot of bike/runs in. The pool it pretty small to do laps in so I will have to attempt to put in a lot of time in the ocean. Once again something I have never done. (geeze this is a year of doing a lot of things I have never done) I have been in the ocean ...just never actually swam much.

It's going to be worse than a lake, except that you won't likely be fighting the grass on your way out.  You might like an ocean swim though.  Some people have issues with getting sea sickness with the waves.  I have read stories of people throwing up during races.

I myself have more of a problem with not willing to go out far enough to swim by myself.  You have go head out a bit to get past the waves.  I am much more adventurous during a race than I am recreationally.  I think too much about currents, being sucked out, and sharks.  If you are going to swim in the ocean like that, you might want to read up on riptides and what to do if you get in one.  In short, don't fight it, and swim parallel to the beach until the current is not so



Hmmm Dave - I would like to say that was comforting...but...no not really...now i have visions of being sucked out to sea and eaten by sharks...i do appreciate the honesty though...maybe I should look into swimming in the bay. I am going to Brigantine Island..they have a triathlon there in August ..I tried to get into it but it sold out really quick i think it is limited to 600...it will be on my list for next year. I still have not signed up for another one this year yet...i am considering the War at the Shore triathlon in Sept- so far it is still open but I wanted to swim in the ocean first...hehehe


Just my 2 cents...
I'm not a very confident swimmer still, so I'd do an ocean swim for a race with lots of kayakers, etc, but I also have a fear of being sucked out to the ocean by some sort of riptide, so at the moment I wouldn't do it by myself.  Many people do it all the time though, so I am sure it can be done safely.  Whatever you decide, just be careful!
2009-06-25 10:36 AM
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Subject: RE: kalalau's Group - FULL for now
ras26 - 2009-06-24 3:18 PM
SCamp07 - 2009-06-23 10:38 AM Becky,

Have you guys chosen any more races for this year?


Not yet, besides Baltimore Marathon.  Our gym has a sprint tri that I am going to sign up for.  I think it's like Sept 20.  I wasn't going make it public, but I am kicking around the idea of another HIM this season.  I liked Eagleman and think I could do a little better and don't really want to wait until next year to find out.  Timberman just opened up a few spots, but it is an 11 hour drive and another $250.  A friend did Mooseman earlier this month and absolutely loved it, and Timberman is supposed to be very similar.  Diamondman is a closer option, and much cheaper since it isn't an Mdot, but I have heard negative things about Pirahna and not being well run, especially if you are BOP.  It's also a MUCH smaller race, so it has the chance to be very lonely.  So, that makes me a little nervous about that.  If you have an experiences to share, I am willing to listen. 

The short answer is no, but I'm thinking about it. 


That's awesome that you're thinking about another HIM this year. I'm still trying to decide whether to tackle one next year.

As far as Pirahna goes. I've done 3 of their races and have had very good experiences with each one. They were all Sprints though. They are very well organized. I also like that they post pictures from the photographers after the race that you don't have to pay extra for.
I think Christy, dolelicious, is doing that race.

That's my .2 cents. 

Edited by SCamp07 2009-06-25 10:37 AM


2009-06-25 12:27 PM
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Subject: RE: kalalau's Group - FULL for now

ras26 - 2009-06-24 3:18 PM
SCamp07 - 2009-06-23 10:38 AM Becky,

Have you guys chosen any more races for this year?


Not yet, besides Baltimore Marathon.  Our gym has a sprint tri that I am going to sign up for.  I think it's like Sept 20.  I wasn't going make it public, but I am kicking around the idea of another HIM this season.  I liked Eagleman and think I could do a little better and don't really want to wait until next year to find out.  Timberman just opened up a few spots, but it is an 11 hour drive and another $250.  A friend did Mooseman earlier this month and absolutely loved it, and Timberman is supposed to be very similar.  Diamondman is a closer option, and much cheaper since it isn't an Mdot, but I have heard negative things about Pirahna and not being well run, especially if you are BOP.  It's also a MUCH smaller race, so it has the chance to be very lonely.  So, that makes me a little nervous about that.  If you have an experiences to share, I am willing to listen. 

The short answer is no, but I'm thinking about it. 

I would LOVE to do Timberman.  I love that area.  I bet it's hilly though. :-)  I've heard good things about Mooseman as well.

I did Delaware Diamondman and I have no complaints about Pirahna at all except maybe they could've given us a better shirt than a pretty plain cotton shirt for that price and distance. :-)  Oh, and the bike was a bit short, like 54.5 miles.  The swim is decent, though you have to swim out to the start and you better get there fast because they are going off on time.  Standing up in Lum's Pond is a bit weird, because there are spots where you will sink in the soil up to your knees or beyond.  Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned that. :-)  T1 is a bit of a run from the swim but not too bad.  I crushed the bike ride, over 20mph.  Watch out for the metal grate in the bridge.  The run can get really hot, but it's on a trail (a C&O-type rail trail) which is interesting if you are not boiling because it is not shaded at all.  But a hot flat race, you've already signed up for once so signing up for another is just another race for you. 

I think the food was pretty good, which keeps me going during the race. :-)

Musselman appears to be still open too, at the Finger Lakes.  And it is one week before Lake Placid so you can stop by afterward.  :-)

 



Edited by kalalau 2009-06-25 12:30 PM
2009-06-26 8:48 AM
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Subject: RE: kalalau's Group - FULL for now
kalalau - 2009-06-25 1:27 PM

I think the food was pretty good, which keeps me going during the race. :-)



Dave - I love that I can always count on you to comment on the food.  It's important!  In all seriousness, that was one thing I was concerned with...whether or not there is adequate support, especially for those of us in the 6:30+ range.  Still undecided which race to do.  Timberman leaves more recovery time before Baltimore.  Hmmm.  Choices.
2009-06-26 10:40 AM
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ras26 - 2009-06-26 9:48 AM

Dave - I love that I can always count on you to comment on the food.  It's important!  In all seriousness, that was one thing I was concerned with...whether or not there is adequate support, especially for those of us in the 6:30+ range.  Still undecided which race to do.  Timberman leaves more recovery time before Baltimore.  Hmmm.  Choices.

I get so disappointed when the food is not exciting.  The Disney Marathon, for example, has just crackers and fruit.  They do have Diet Coke though, which thrills me.  At Double Creek last week, they had BBQ sandwiches!  Those were awesome.  At SetupEvent events, they seem to get a ton of pizza.  I am looking forward to that at the Montclair Triathlon on Sunday.

I can't speak for the 6:30+ racers at Delaware Diamondman, but I thought the support was good, and I was always around other racers.  I just checked the results and it seems like there are a decent amount of people around 6:30, though it's hard to tell exactly how it played out because of the wave system.

Seems Timberman would be a big hype and well supported race, much like Eagleman.  Delaware Diamondman is a lot more low key.

 

2009-06-26 10:54 AM
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Ok I will write up a little bit about my track session on Wed.  I am still sore BTW, mostly in my feet and lower calves, from being on my toes so much.

His focus is mainly to increase our stride and cadence.  Now don't go reading this and thing you need to have long strides.  As distance runners, we should have a shorter stride.  But this track workout, should make my short stride a bit longer, if that makes sense to you.

Anyway, we did a lot of drills, with various things to look silly while running around the track.  We did a couple of laps with changing our drill every 100 yards.  Run backward with a long stride for 100, turn around and do "bounding" for 100, then do "windmills" for a 100, etc.  Kind of hard to describe it all here.

Then he pulled us off to the side and we did a bunch of drills for short distances.  One involved kicking out butt, another was high knees with as high frequency as we could get it.  He also made us run on our toes a lot.  Then came a drill where we kicked our butt with high frequency for about 20 feet, then burst with speed for about 100 yards while he chased and screamed at us.  That was tough.  He kept stressing running on our toes.

Then we took off our shoes and headed to the middle of the track.  There are goal posts in the middle of our track, 100 yards apart.  Then we did the classic interval training that you read about, except apparently he doesn't believe in holding back during the sprint portions.  So we would sprint from one goal post to another as fast as we could, and then jog back for recovery.  We did that 8 times.  He would chase us to make us go faster, and tell us to get on our toes and use our arms to go faster.  Also, you should not be tense when you run.  Do not make fists with your hands.  He showed us "the wafer method" which I have been doing for years, where you touch your finger to your thumb as you run, to prevent your body from tensing up.  That is a good thing to be doing.

BTW, in long distance races, we shouldn't pump our arms very much until the end, because it wastes energy.  Also, in the classic method of intervals, you should be holding back a little bit on these intervals because you don't want to trash your workout or the next couple of days' workouts.  In the classic interval training method, your "sprint" sections of the intervals should all have around the same time.  You should not get so tired that you slow down.

So after the 8x100yd intervals, we then did 2 laps around the inside of the track on the grass for a cool down, and then some stretching.

All in all it was around 90 minutes, a lot going on.  I am hearing rumors of 200yd intervals next week, which don't sound fun at all. :-)

 

2009-06-26 12:50 PM
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Subject: RE: kalalau's Group - FULL for now
kalalau - 2009-06-26 11:54 AM

Ok I will write up a little bit about my track session on Wed.  I am still sore BTW, mostly in my feet and lower calves, from being on my toes so much.

His focus is mainly to increase our stride and cadence.  Now don't go reading this and thing you need to have long strides.  As distance runners, we should have a shorter stride.  But this track workout, should make my short stride a bit longer, if that makes sense to you.

Anyway, we did a lot of drills, with various things to look silly while running around the track.  We did a couple of laps with changing our drill every 100 yards.  Run backward with a long stride for 100, turn around and do "bounding" for 100, then do "windmills" for a 100, etc.  Kind of hard to describe it all here.

Then he pulled us off to the side and we did a bunch of drills for short distances.  One involved kicking out butt, another was high knees with as high frequency as we could get it.  He also made us run on our toes a lot.  Then came a drill where we kicked our butt with high frequency for about 20 feet, then burst with speed for about 100 yards while he chased and screamed at us.  That was tough.  He kept stressing running on our toes.

Then we took off our shoes and headed to the middle of the track.  There are goal posts in the middle of our track, 100 yards apart.  Then we did the classic interval training that you read about, except apparently he doesn't believe in holding back during the sprint portions.  So we would sprint from one goal post to another as fast as we could, and then jog back for recovery.  We did that 8 times.  He would chase us to make us go faster, and tell us to get on our toes and use our arms to go faster.  Also, you should not be tense when you run.  Do not make fists with your hands.  He showed us "the wafer method" which I have been doing for years, where you touch your finger to your thumb as you run, to prevent your body from tensing up.  That is a good thing to be doing.

BTW, in long distance races, we shouldn't pump our arms very much until the end, because it wastes energy.  Also, in the classic method of intervals, you should be holding back a little bit on these intervals because you don't want to trash your workout or the next couple of days' workouts.  In the classic interval training method, your "sprint" sections of the intervals should all have around the same time.  You should not get so tired that you slow down.

So after the 8x100yd intervals, we then did 2 laps around the inside of the track on the grass for a cool down, and then some stretching.

All in all it was around 90 minutes, a lot going on.  I am hearing rumors of 200yd intervals next week, which don't sound fun at all. :-)

 



Nice description.  Yeah, that sounds like a pretty typical sprint workout, although no one chased us in HS...and we wore shoes.  :-)  The "wafer method" is also the "potato chip" method.  It works pretty well, but I tend to try to keep my hands loose on distance runs. 


2009-06-26 3:03 PM
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Subject: RE: kalalau's Group - FULL for now

ras26 - 2009-06-26 1:50 PM
Nice description.  Yeah, that sounds like a pretty typical sprint workout, although no one chased us in HS...and we wore shoes.  :-)  The "wafer method" is also the "potato chip" method.  It works pretty well, but I tend to try to keep my hands loose on distance runs. 

There was another drill that I had forgotten.  Some people call it grapevines, he called it the karaoke drill.  It's hard enough to do that drill by itself, but then for track they want you to thrust your one knee up for every move.

2009-06-27 4:58 AM
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Subject: RE: kalalau's Group - FULL for now
Thanks for the write up Dave. I've been wanting to add some track work to build speed and have been scouring my old Runner's World for ideas. These seem more fun challenging.
2009-07-01 8:29 AM
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Subject: RE: kalalau's Group - FULL for now
ok getting nervous...now that the training log is on july and i can actually see my green race date...what advise do u have for next week workouts?
2009-07-01 3:13 PM
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Subject: RE: kalalau's Group - FULL for now
abbiesue - 2009-07-01 9:29 AM ok getting nervous...now that the training log is on july and i can actually see my green race date...what advise do u have for next week workouts?


Anything you do should be at a low intensity. You won't get any training benefit the last week before your race.
2009-07-01 5:52 PM
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SCamp07 - 2009-06-27 5:58 AM Thanks for the write up Dave. I've been wanting to add some track work to build speed and have been scouring my old Runner's World for ideas. These seem more fun challenging.

I wish I could get you to these workouts, but I don't think it can happen.

Today we did the same workout, as coach was sick and didn't come.  Hopefully I won't be sore this time because I am planning on a really big weekend of training on Skyline Drive and the Appalachian Trail.



2009-07-01 5:54 PM
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Subject: RE: kalalau's Group - FULL for now

I saw a really nice article on the front page of BT today, is good reading:

Eight Things I Learned from My First Triathlon
Or why an Ironman 70.3 may not be your best choice for your first triathlon.

 

You are already avoiding many of this guy's mistakes but there's some other nice tidbits in there.

2009-07-01 5:57 PM
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abbiesue - 2009-07-01 9:29 AM ok getting nervous...now that the training log is on july and i can actually see my green race date...what advise do u have for next week workouts?

I thought you were on one of the BT training schedules?  If not, pick one and see what the last couple of weeks look like:

http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/training/trainingplans-list.asp?h=1&racetype=0&level=-1

And don't ever let me hear that you have picked a "run focused" training plan. :-)  We focus on our limiters, remember.

2009-07-02 1:49 PM
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Subject: RE: kalalau's Group - FULL for now

Jim Adams (local running guy) posted this nice track workout for anyone interested:


Goal - Increase lactate tolerance levels

Each Set

3x300m at faster than 5k race pace
100 meter jog
Must hit all 300's in the same time without slowing down
1x 400m at the same pace
400 m recovery jog

Repeat for three sets, once in shape do four sets.

2009-07-07 10:15 PM
in reply to: #1876643

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Maryland
Subject: RE: kalalau's Group - FULL for now

Hey, check this out, I just ran into this pretty neat website to analyze Olympic swimmers' form.  It displays it in animation and from as many angles as you like:

Virtual Swim

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