GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!! (Page 25)

Hang in there Diane...

Edited by midlifeinsanity 2010-05-23 7:56 PM

Diane,
Ditto what M said.  This sport takes a lot of patience.  Something's always going wrong.  And even if nothing's going wrong, it takes months of hard work just to get a little bit better.  But, obviously, a lot of people think it's worth it.  Sounds like you're going to be ok in the long run, so that's good.
Denise

Steve,

Hope all is well.  Could use some advise on lactate threshold testing.  I called a local company, Phase IV here in LA (on recommendation of some other BT'ers) to set up a test.  VERY experienced people...perhaps too much so. http://www.phase-iv.net/

Moreon that in a second.

Basic question though:  they strongly advised that I get tested both on the bike and the treadmill for my HR zones.  The guy's take is that there is no "rule of thumb" for doing one test and then making an adjustment for the other sport.  Now, if money grew on trees, then sure, get them both done, but at $200 a pop, that's expensive.  If you only got one done, which would it be, and do you agree that there's no way to apply the testing results of one sport to the other?

Second basic question:  Do I want a Vo2 max test or a lactate threshold test.  From what I can tell, on one, they use the oxygen mask to measure oxygen intake and Co2 output, the other they are taking blood samples.  Which one is more useful, as both seem to claim that they can provide me accurate HR training zones.

An aside on the call:  It quickly devolved into an "upsell" situation.  Apparently, my training plan is for S**t, my volume is WAY to low (12-15 hours / week with 17 weeks to go...REALLY?), my sore left knee is an indication that my running form is for S**t and I most likely need their biomechanical evaluation for runners.  My bike (Felt B-12) is for S**t, but that I should be OK on it for now, but they highly recommend a second fitting ASAP, and hey, they happen to do that.  At 38, I should really consider engaging in a strength training program, and wouldn't you know it, they offer that too!!!

I always wondered why people thought this was an expensive sport!  Buy a pair of shoes, get a bike and wetsuit, then just go ride, run and swim!  Little here for a race, little there...I forgot I need biomechanical running assessments, personal nutrition planning and a strength training coach.  Worst of all, the tone on the other end of the phone is one of, "well, without all this highly scientific information and evaluations, there is very little chance I can finish an IM distance.   As much as I know I need to get tested, I'm afraid to go to this place, as a simple phone call already has me worried as to whether this is all a pipe dream. 

 

 

 

Edited by SAquavia 2010-01-06 6:28 PM

That's exciting to hear you have already registered for a race.  It sounds like a good one.    I know what you mean about wanting some competition.   There aren't that many women in my age in a lot of the races.   I'm always figuring out how I would have placed with the women 10 years younger.     However, there are 2 or 3 women here in Ontario that are untouchable and I'm always keeping my fingers crossed they DON"T show up.     

Thanks for all the well wishes.  Currently predicting 20 degrees on Sunday.  Thinking most will be overdressed (we very rarely see 20 degree weather around here), so maybe that will be an advantage for me ... ha! ... I'll need it.  I'm just going to think about how dreadfully hot it was over the summer and count my blessings. 

Diane, hope that a little rest from the swimming will get things back in order.

Steve A, I think I would keep shopping around for somewhere else to do your testing ... yikes, I hate dealing with those hard sell tactics.

Got to run for now as my son is needing the computer to shop for a battery for his car. Guess I might as well cook dinner while I'm at it!

DIANE -

Well, no, that's not exactly the best news, is it? But, the long-term prognosis is favorable, and if you are patient and work hard at rehab, you should be okay in time. And Denise is right, that in doing this stuff something is always going wrong. The trick is working around it and through it, being creative with the workouts, and trying very hard to make silk purses out of sows' ears.

I could regale you with countless stories of the times I have been "on the shelf", and while each time it seems like the end of the world.......well, I'm still doing triathlons and duathlons, so I've been able to keep bouncing back.

And I hope that you will, too! It sounds like you have a fine, dedicated person behind you on this, and with that one element of a Support Crew in place, you can progress at the best and safest speed possible.

In the meantime.....think duathlon, maybe? You know, the run/bike/run events that are ideal for people who either can't swim, ro hate to sim, or are too injured to swim. Twice in my life I have become a somewhat reluctant (but VERY thankful!) duathlete, with the most recent time being this summer after the bike crash and separating my shoulder. While it is not the Full Triathlon Experience, it is the same general environment --- and not as tricky to plan for as a tri. I mean, there's no goggles and wetsuits to worry about, so the transition space suddenly becomes tidy and eminently manageable. Mostly, though, it's just an outstanding way to keep one's head (and body!) in the game

That leads me to Saving Grace #2, which you have mentioned yourself -- this becomes a great time to focus on the bike and the run. That kind of has to be the mentality, but keep in mind that many, many experienced people choose to train this way, i.e., eliminating one of the sports for a while and focusing hard on the other two. In fact, that is kind of how I run my off-seasons, seeing as how I can't seem to force myself to take a true OFF-season. I went aboyut 8 weks with little bike work, and now I'm back to that but taking it quite easy on the run. In a week or two or three I will drop the swim for a while and place my emphasis on cycling and running.

You really do sound very adaptable, and that will help you immensely. You're right about flutter-kicking for a while, and the next time you see her, ask about sculling. I was able to do this with my separated shoulder, and maybe you can, too. It is hard to explain sculling without graphics, so search around on-line and ideally, find a video of somebody doing it. Sculling does not require full arm extension, and one of the great benefits is that when done correctly, it provides terrific feel for the water as the "catch" is being made. (Also, see on-line video for the catch, which is the first step of the pull. Your arm enters the wate, extends forward, and then should pivot downward from the elbow before pulling back past your body. When you read about "high elbows underwater", the big part of this results from having a strong catch -- which can be improved greatly by sculling.)

Finally, along with the separated shoulder ( five weks recovery), a few years ago the other shoulder was plagued with a shoulder impingement. The rehab for this took longer than the separation, but as with your current problem, it happened in the winter - perfect for those of us who live for the competitive season! There were times when I wondered if I would ever swim again, but as with practically any other injury, time heals. And again -- you're especially fortunate to have a wonderful trainer behind you, so just keep the faith!

Arghhhhh!!!!!!   Just had a LONG post back to you and lost it!!!!!   Back to re-typing.   This is where I feel like picking up the phone.  

STEVE -

I'm kind of floored by the "customer service" you received from those people. I don't know who they think they are, but they sure don't seem to be very attuned to the range of clients with whom they might be dealing. The only way I can excuse them is if every previous client they have tested has been an elite or a pro. Really. That is the only reasonable grounds they could have for some of the statements they made.

Getting to un-specifics first:
(1) Your training volume is not too low for where you are in your tri career and what you hope to accomplish at St. George. Now, if you were a pro looking to score a paycheck, or an elite willing to die to land a Kona spot, then you might beneift from afew more hours each week. But there are thousands and thousands of people who do an iron on less hours than you've got, and less experience as well. And also -- it's not so much about the quantity as the quality.
(2) Sore knees happen for dozens of reasons, only some of which reflect poor running form. To wit, overuse is a big culprit (note: I am NOT suggesting that is what's behind your sore knee), so while they seem to be advocating more hours for you, I hguies they don;'t relaize that increased hours can exact its tolls on the body.
(3) Your bike is FINE! They mustn't be aware of the annual bike Kona bike count done by Slowtwitch, because if they did they'd feel incredibly stupid or deceitful making such a comment.

Frankly, I wouldn't give them a pot to pee in, let alone my money for an ssessment. I'm not questioning that they don't do good assessments, but I neither like nor trust their attitude. So, my advice would be to look around for a second option.

Having blown off some steam there, I can also give them a couple of points for vaild suggestions. that is, all of their recommendations (disregarding their editorializing about you and your training and your equipment) have merit -- running assessments, bike fittings, strength work as one ages. (As an aside, at your relatively young age, I wouldn't worry too much about strength training, at least on the basis of age!)

All that aside, I want to focus on your final comment: "....has me worried as to whether this is all a pipe dream". What I HOPE is that you are referring to the testing; what I FEAR is that you are talking about is St. George. Please let me know which one it is, and as soon as you can, okay?

But for now, I can tell you that St. George is not just a pipe dream for you!! Right from your first posts I could tell that you respected the distance and were willing to put in all the work required. Moreover, you ask extremely in-depth questions, so it's obvious to me that not only do you study all this stuff, but that you take it seriously enough to be hungry enough to go much deeper than many IMers are even remotely aware they can (and should!) go.

There are lots of things that can undermine an ironman, and the list includes mechanicals, poor pacing, random nutrition, undertraining.....and overtraining. The first-three are really race-day phenomena, but the other two are things that happen long before the race takes place. I really think your training hours are fine; to my mind, you're neither undertrained or overtrained, but just about right on.

At this point, your body will give you some pretty clear messages if it's over-trained. (Do you know what to look for? I suspect you do, but if not let me know and post a list for you.) It sounds as if you are well over what was ailing you a month or so ago, so that's something to be thankful for, to be sure!

As for undertraining.....I just don't see it happening for you. Your workouts seem to be of a pretty high caliber, and you are steadily and surely climbing up the mileage ladders. As I said to Diane, albeit in a differnet context -- Keep the faith! St. George is NOT just a pipe dream for you, it's something that is well within your limits and that you are training very seriously to accomplish!

STEVE again -

I have to split the scene here, so I'll get back to you soon about specifics about testing. Quickly, though, for me I had both, in August '02. The first test was the run, then the bike two days later.

If I had to choose one, it would be the run,as that is where I am more inclined to push myself to the further limits. HOWEVER, I will search around and see what the professionals say about this.

Stay tuned!

Thanks Steve, much appreciated!  I will definitely take my business elsewhere.

That said, do you think it makes sense to get tested for both bike and run, or is just testing the run and making an adjustment for bike sufficient?

Also, am I really looking for a Lactate Threshold test or a Vo2 max test if what I want are accurate HR training zones?  Or will both get me to the same place? 

Hey Darren:

Bizarre thing but when I click on some of the members in the table, it goes to my training log. Maybe it's a weird thing with my computer...?

Tracey

STEVE -

Quickly again!

Mine was lactate - blood samples in the fingertip.

I'm not sure I was given an option. They (Peak Perfomance Centre, Ottawa) knew what I wanted, which were accurate heart rate zones, and gave me the lactate test.

My zones were established after the run test , the first one, and they were what I used fairly religiously for a few years. Looking at my log.........for some reason I only wrote down "Bike zones" on the day I did the bike test; nothing more than that. Hmmm. I'll have to figure out what those were!

The run test yielded the following:
Max H.R. - 180
VO2max - 58.3

Z1: 127-143
Z2: 144-160
Z3: 161-165
Z4: 166-175
Z5: 176+

Those results are kind of ancient history, maybe? Like, 8-plus years? Yikes! I was that much younger then, but I'm much better trained now. Maybe I'll get tested for my birthday!

Yeah, you are using an older version of the table. Use this one, all the links should work. The reason that some of the links went to your log is that I didn't have the member ids at that time so it defaulted to you (the person doing the clicking)

---start copy----

GrooveTime Group Steve
CathyD BigDH ShunShun DeputyDawg Lufferly Latestarter lmcvetty SAquavia Dwayne FoxfireTX	thall0672 midlifeinsanity hooslisa smarx Hepeoc LadyNorth TriD64 rcotter ThatGirl Augeremt
link to the forum pg1

----stop copy----

Darren: Thanks for sending the updated table! (I don't always keep up with things).

STEVE:



So what you're saying is that regardless of your pace, optimal cadence is 90? I've been working on increasing my pace by actually lengthening my stride, which of course results in a lower cadence. Any thoughts on that?

Thanks!

EVERYONE:

Hi all. I was wondering if I could get some suggestions on a tri bike. I don't have a racing bike currently (just a mountain bike), and my training is done on a life cycle at the gym. When the weather starts getting better I want to get outside (yes, it's only January but I'm already thinking Spring!)

I know close to nothing about tri bikes. I would like something that's not too terribly expensive, but also something that I'll want to keep as I progress on to more/longer races. Am I asking too much if I want to spend less than $1000?

Thanks all!

Tracey

LISA,

Hope you have a great race this weekend!   I had to do a conversion to figure out just how COLD it will be.       If the sun is shining and the wind stays away you will have a beautiful day.   

Anne

ANNE -

Thanks you for the info on motels. As I said, I'm still a long ways off from signing up for either of those, but I might book the one in Muskoka - just in case.

The thing that bugs me about Somersault is that for all but one event (The Canadian) they use only three splits. I HATE that! Not only do I take a fair bit of pride in my transitions and want to see them up there pure, but it bothers me even more that it affects the actual posted times of at least one of the three disciplines. They usually work it so that the posted bike time also includes T1 and T2, but that's not always the case. So, at their races I click on my watch at the palces where a timing mat would likely be if they had enough to allow five splits, just to get a decent idea of my "pure" times for each of the five.

The thing I like about U.S. races is the whole USAT points thing. It is a pretty accurate indicator of how one stacks up against eveybody else in the age group across the country, and beyond that there is the goal to be ranked either All-American or Honorable Mention. It's a good system.

The points-system for both Trisport and Multisport really depend on how many races you do. With USAT and Soemrsault, the point are based on averages of your best three races, but for Trisport and Multisport it is just total points -- the more races you do the more points you amass, period. So fo me to compete in either, I have to travel a lot -- either through Algonquin Park or down the ultra-tedious 401. Yechh.

Really sorry to hear about your shoulder.   However, seeing what you have accomplished over the last few years, I am sure you will not let this 'blip' stop you from achieving your goals.   You obviously do have patience and are able to see the upside of a problem and turn it into an opportunity for you.    Well done!  

Anne

TRACEY (and all - this is about RUNNING CADENCE) -

I'm going to an expert for the best words for this, so what follows will be from Joe Friel amnd The Triathlete's Training Bible.

"Many triathletes try to get faster by maximizing stride length with a slow cadence. To get this long stride they have to raise their center of gravity by a few inches with every step, bouncing as they run. This 'loping' stride has several implications.

"The first is that the runner needlessly expends a lot of extra energy........The second implication is that once he or she is up in the air, the loping runner is dependent on gravity for a return to earth.....vertical displacement means slower running due to the time spent falling back to the ground. The third implication of loping is that when a runner does come back to terra firma, there is considerable impact force. Repeating this a few hundred times each mile, mile after mile, year after year, often results in the overuse injuries that plague runners.

"So the way to run faster is not with a longer stride, at least not when you are initially trying to improve your running, but rather, with a quicker cadence. Increasing your cadence will minimize your vertical displacement, allowing you more frequent cointacts with the ground, which is when horizontal power is applied, and will decrease your risk of injury because you will experience a lighter landing."

Make sense? I took that from Friel verbatim, just because he explains the info in the second paragraph so well. But, really, the key is in his summation in the final paragraph......and I guess I could've paraphrased that myself. Still, I guess it's good to get some things straight from the horse's mouth, eh?

I hope the above helps!

You are competitive, aren't you!         Although I do have some favorites (LOVE jumping off the steamboat in Gravenhurst) and for some reason, really like Orillia, I don't like doing the same races over and over.   So at some point I AM going to have to look other than Ontario for races.   I don't really care about series placements, but I am pretty adamant about being in the top 3 of any race.   Also adamant about being first on the bike.  

I too hate the way Somersault does their timing and Trisport does that too in their short races.    I forgot to mention we raced in Kingston a couple of times in May as well, and I really like that race, but that isn't Somersault.   It is well run.  

We come to Ottawa a fair bit and we really like it.   So far it is #1 on our list as a good place to retire.    I love cycling in the Gatineaus and there is such a massive amount of cycling lanes (it seems).   The only thing that has me concerned is the availability of good, clean open water swimming.     We often stay in Nepean and it is so easy and quick to cycle downtown.   As we get closer to that time, (2-3 years?)  hopefully you can give us some guidance.  

Anne

TRACEY again -

Several years ago you could get a Quintana Roo tri bike (I think the model was Kilo) for about $1000, and that was a good entry-level tri bike. Now, on the one hand prices have likely gone up, but on the other hand there are many more tri bikes being made noadays, and with more people entering triathlon and duathlon, companies are probably making more entry-level bikes.

I will search around for this information. But if you are at loose ends, google Cervelo, Quintana Roo, and Kuota. The Cervelo entry level tri-bike is the P1 (I know Cervelo because I have the P2C), but I'm not sure on QR and Kuota. It might be Tequilo (sp?) for QR, and I think a guy in my other group bought a Kuota Kalibur last season. (He bought a Kuota at any rate, so there is a realtievlt inexpensive one from them. Beyond that, also google Trek and Felt, although I'm not sure they start with a bonafide entry-level model.

And the other way to go is with a good road bike which you can "trick-out" with things such as clip-on aerobars and lighter, more aerodynamic wheels. You lose something, in a road bike, in not having more aggressive geometry, but even that can be fixed by switching out the stock set post with a so-called "fast-forward" seat post. (Actually, I think "Fast-Forward" is the name of a specific model of seat post, made by Profile Design.)

Let me know if you find anything, and from this end I will do some searching later today.