Dirk's Junkie group - CLOSED (Page 25)

208 is not unreasonably high at all.  I will wager that you could actually achieve slightly above 208, but it would really, really hurt to prove that.  Save that for some day when you are doing a track interval workout with people to push you...Trying the 5k method on your own might work...but I fear it might not.  I personally wouldn't work a private 5k time-trial nearly as hard as I would push it in an actual race. 

Why don't you look around for a 5k race coming up soon?

I would definitely go with the revised ranges for your HR zones.  Feel free to run up to 165bpm on your easy runs. 

208 for a max HR isn't unreasonable at all, but max HR isn't really a number most endurance plans/coaches really care about it.  It's really the LTHR, or whatever term you want to use, that really matters.  And as Jeff says, there are tests to find or estimate that number but they are really,really hard and I agree that it's probably impossible to push enough, but that might be factored into the test protocol. 

There's a test here on BT to help determine your running and biking numbers here.  You can get zones from that for various levels of training.  Typically bike numbers are way lower than running, and your actual LTHR doesn't really change much over the course of a year - what changes is the work you can do at that HR.

For my easy run plan, I'm trying to keep my miles all within the zone 1.  So for my LTHR of 165 from the last test I did, I use 140 as my max HR during my runs.  My resting HR is 48 as another datapoint.  I have been reading the Maffetone book, and he'd have me going at 130, which would really be interesting to try to keep it that slow.  I don't think using age as the only input is a very good method though.  Though according to him I'd still be going way too fast.  Jeff or Dirk?

Dirk: I finished your favorite 6x4 bike work out today!  Almost fell off the trainer when I was done, my coordination was gone and I couldn't get my foot out of the strap!  I do think I found the "little harder" on the last set!  As for the balance between resistance and cardio, I am not sure I found it but my lungs hurt and my legs are sore!

As for my weekly weigh-in, I came in at 8.  Bad part was I forgot my water bottle and by the end of the above WO I was at 6!  Currently having a big glass of water!

Yeah...along those lines, as beginning runners (as a good number of us are technically), when it comes to our training I would argue that it doesn't really matter what all those numbers are.  I'm going on my 7th day running in a row with no pain and I'm just running easy.  Sometimes I run a bit faster, sometimes a bit slower.  But it's working way better than when I tried to run in different zones and just ended up having some sort of issue that took months to go away.  Once I get to the point...and I'm probably talking like 2 years from now...that I can make a difference by doing speed work and all that, then maybe I will pay more attention to running zones.

I want to make it clear that I think using heart rate when running is a great way to keep yourself in check.  I use it every day when running to make sure I'm not going too hard.  I also like to use it when racing to make sure I'm going hard enough and not slacking off.  It may be a good idea to find out what your lactate threshhold heart rate is just to make sure you are keeping it near there during your races and not wussing out. (like I have caught myself doing before)

Nice!!!  This is EXACTLY the type of workout that will make you faster!  Nice job.  Remember to hydrate those muscles!

I am pretty much even for my weight..........I think.  The scale said I am 9 but prior to getting on, it said -1 rather than 0.  It is a digital scale at work in our warehouse and I have never seen it do that before.  Basically I am not trusting it.  When I get another chance I'll check it again against another scale in our barn.

Firstly, thank you Jonathan, Warren and Jeff for not telling me to run off and see a cardiologist immediately - being 16bpm above what I was supposed to be for my age was a LITTLE concerning. Thank you also for confirming I'm actually training about where I should be and I don't have to learn to run at 12:00/mile.

Warren, I did consider doing the 30 minute TT on the bike and running. I'm basically six months into exercising, and finally fit enough to try these things and finding out about my body, so I'll probably try them at some point over the next few weeks. I'd rather have the LTHR, but I'm tired from a few tough bikes and my HR zones have been off for the last couple of weeks. I can give 100%, but not for 30 mins today! 

I'm wondering if having a very high metabolism contributes to having a high HR. In college I ate enough to weigh 300 lbs - Popeye's Fried Chicken and Chipotle Burritos every meal and enough beer to drown a donkey - but I never broke 200 until after I graduated. Thats a thinking point!

Thank you again for the help guys, you guys have so much knowledge to share it's a blessing listen to it!

John

Yeah.  I agree as well.  Trying to fit your runs into a particular HR zone has never been something I have tried for very long.  I felt there were to many variables such as wind, temperature, hills (up or down) to really get a feel for "zoning" my runs.  I just run easy most of the time and throw in some harder stuff prior to the beginning of the racing season.

On the HR during runs I agree 1000%!!  I use this as a tremendous tool to stay on track during races especially.  You can find out loads of information by tracking HR in your logs for all your runs.  This is one of the reasons I am so wordy in my logs.  I track pretty closely how I felt and weigh that against my HR.  Without actually checking my logs and averaging them, I would guess that nearly all of my easy runs over the past year have been from 145-153 HR and my pace has increased by 15-25 seconds a mile depending weather and other factors.

Racing is a huge place to use HR too.  Just as you mentioned Jonathon you can make sure you are going hard enough or also make sure your not going to blow up before the finish line.  Usually this can take a while to master though.  It takes a while to figure out where you need to be for various distances.  Obviously you can't run a marathon at the same HR as a 5k or a sprint and a HIM at the same HR.  So learning to get everything put together takes time.

Not a problem at all John.  If it's any consolation, I did send a note to a good friend of mine who is a very well known cardiologist.  He works with testing athletes on a weekly basis and I get a lot of good feedback.  I asked him about max heart rates at certain ages.  I will let you know what he says.  This is a question that comes up a lot and I never really have a scientific answer.

Very well put.  And an important thing to remember when filling out your race reports.  My HR was X and I felt such and such half way thru the run etc.

bswcpa - 2012-01-26 11:26 AM Quick note to say I'm still alive, although life and taxes have gotten in the way of training. Hoping to be able to catch up reading the last 10 pages of posts by tonight and join in again. A quick perusal shows some good discussions. WELCOME JoAnne! I'd thought we'd lost you but glad to see you're in. Weight loss was so negligable, I'm keeping it at 4. Happy Thursday everyone!

I knew you weren't slacking off because I have been checking up on you in your logs, otherwise known as spying.  I also know you had better not be slacking off with the 60k race you have coming up in a few months.  I imagine that I might get into the trail racing scene a little later.  The Huff was so much fun!  I was talking about that race at work this week and another coworker that ran it said he wouldn't do it in the same conditions.  I told him I would be signed up in a second under those same conditions.

I also agree, and I'm really just using my HR to be sure I'm going easy enough.  Coming from a competitive background in hockey it makes it hard to "train" and not try to "accomplish" something on my runs.  Every practice we went all out and it was absolutely a no pain, no gain mentality, so that's still embedded in my brain I guess.  I also think I had fooled myself into thinking what was an "easy pace".  My easy was way too fast, so the HR really shows what's going on and keeps me in check.

On an interesting note, after just a week of really watching the HR, I can pretty nail my running HR within 1 beat based on how I feel.  I'm going to try again during tomorrow's long run, but it's a little game I play while running - guess the HR.

I always feel guilty when I take a day off, but I know my body needs it.  You won't lose anything.

I've been reading all of this heart rate discussion.  I have never done anything as far as monitoring my HR.  I've also never raced competitively, and my goal for this year is simply to finish my OLY.  Should I be paying attention to heart rate?

Certainly a few days won't hurt you.  And you have to be able to recover from the workouts.  Remember, we don't improve while we're doing the work, it's while we're recovering that our bodies make the changes necessary for improvement.  You must be healthy enough to work and get the proper recovery to see benefits.  When you're sick your body is using some of that recovery strength to battle whatever sickness you have.  If you  interrupt that task or give your body too many competing recovery tasks, something will break down.

It's actually amazing how efficient the body is at telling us what it needs - if we really listen.  How hard/often or even whether to train while you're sick is pretty personal.  I stick with my take on try it out for 10 minutes, and if you don't feel better or at least good enough to finish the workout then it may be best to bag it.

DirkP - 2012-01-27 7:48 AM

I thought some of you who are just starting out might like to see this.  I think it is pretty accurate.  Regardless of the distance you run, the pace you go, whether you race or don't, you are a runner.  And you are going faster than the guy on the couch!

And it's probably not any accident that the guy in the picture isn't running....but panting. 

While not saying that paying attention to your HR would be bad....I would say that there is no reason for you to worry about it.  You can simply train at a mostly low intensity with your emphasis on increasing distance.  That's the easiest, and I would say the best, approach to prepare you to meet your stated goal.

Be encouraged!  As long as the days off are for a specific purpose and a specific duration and your training resumes in a consistent manner it will not affect your season in any measurable way.

When you say that you've pushed yourself through your workouts, I hope you don't mean that you've pushed yourself to meet any certain speed goals.  When sick I think the best way to train is EASY, SLOW and medium distances at most.  You can virtually maintain 100% of your fitness on about 50% of your regular training volume, at least in the short term.

But training while sick doesn't always work and isn't always the best thing to do.  Since you gave it a valiant effort, I think you should feel guilt free about taking a few days.

It's not essential - my goals are similar (ie just to finish and do my best) but I started to monitor my HR to make sure I'm not training too hard and risking injury. Since I started, I've gone slower but much further and actually felt much better about it. I treat it as a training tool, nothing more - don't panic about having one! That's my 2c anyway. 

On the subject of swimming, I found a swimming program designed to take you from nothing to a mile in six weeks - it doesn't focus on form or technique, just on getting the distance. I've been doing it while focusing on maintaining reasonable form, even when I'm tired, but getting the distance is important. The distances and breaks are posted here.

The funny thing is, the more comfortable I get in the water, the better my form gets!

I hope everyone else feels better from all the sickness going around. It seems like it's had a go at everyone!

Allison, Don't worry about losing you fitness over a couple of days.  I believe it takes at least 1 full week of inactivity before there negative impact to your current training.  After 2 weeks you are now in state of undoing anything you have done but that is not to say you can't recover from a 2 week break very quickly and be right back to "normal" within a another couple of weeks.

As you get your training capacity higher and higher your body adapts to the loading and you can do more while feeling under the weather.  Right now you have been increasing your training load and allowed your body to break down a bit.  If you need the recovery it would be wise to take it.  Don't worry about losing any fitness, you're fine.  I would suggest that you do something light if you can or feel okay doing it.  Maybe some swim drills or easy spinning.  I am not sure I would do any running because that is harder to control, at least for me.

David, For your HR question.  I don't think it can hurt you to go ahead and begin to figure out the ups and downs of your HR training environment.  It takes a little time and study to learn what the numbers mean to you personally as they vary quite a bit for each person regardless of age.

The way you can do this if you have a HR monitor (don't try to use the HR monitors on treadmills and such) is just pay a bit of attention to where you can run at an easy, conversational pace.  If you run alone outside I suggest you talk to yourself and make sure you can complete sentences without having to stop speaking to breath.  (Obviously I wouldn't do this while you are running past people unless you enjoy being thought of as a lunatic.)  Watch that HR and track it well for a while.  This can help establish a low zone for anything easy while running.  However, this will ONLY be for running as cycling has a lower threshold than running and swimming has a lower threshold than cycling.  Most of your cycling should be done harder than running anyway.

I would support this concept as long as you follow through with the comments at the end......................

..................."But is technique really everything after the first six weeks? Yes. Technique means nothing more than making the stroke simpler, using less energy, so that your effort is channeled directly into propelling you forward."

Following this principle will certainly impact your swimming ability fi you don't allow time for proper technical swimming.

I also like the idea that rather than using a lap clock for the beginning of each rep, using breaths.  Never thought of thast before butit seems to make some logical sense for a beginner or when a lap clock is unavailable.  But, I think that after this prgram is over it will benefit you to get back on the "clock."