Discrimination in Boy Scouts (Page 3)

I've got news for you......it won't make a single bit of difference to the boys.

Oh, no doubt that parents will pull their boys out of scouts because of it......but the boys who stay will not notice a single difference.

I've got news for you......if you think THIS is a mob, wait until your kids tell you that they don't care at all who is gay and who isn't.....they figure out pretty quick it's a stupid thing to worry about.

If I had money to bet on this, I'd say that the BSA will move right on down the road as an organization.........this won't be near the issue you think it will......notice how it never is, despite the wringing of hands of a few folks stuck in the past.  Notice how the legalization of gay marriage has changed all of our lives?  LOL

How about we try to stay within the realm of reality.......that comment is absurd.   Pedophilia is illegal.  You are talking about someone who's sexual preference is illegal.  Yes, in your example they never acted on it......but there is no way to prove that once they say what their preference is. 

It's comments like this that make the discussion turn to stupid.  Hell, what if they were predisposed to chop up babies into little pieces but never acted on it....or maybe if they enjoyed shooting people in a movie theater but never acted on it.......or maybe if their deep desire was to put an entire scout troop in a bus and drive it off a cliff......but they've never acted on it, but each admitted they wanted to.  That's just as dumb as your comment.  Really, Jackemy, you're capable of a better argument then that stinker.....hopefully.

Yeah, that's right.  Thanks.

You hit the nail on the head right here.  I can guarantee you that there are gay boy scouts that are confused and hurting.  Having a positive gay male influence would be a great thing.  Showing them that it's okay and that you can do the exact same things that your hetero counterparts can.  This is the same as the pro athletes coming out.  While it may not seem like news to many people, or they may get sick of hearing about it.  It can make the world of a difference to a kid somewhere.

Justin, that's the big thing I've learned from you during these discussions.  Admittedly, I was one of those people who voiced that I was just tired of hearing about people coming out, because I don't care who is gay and who isn't.   You have helped me understand that it actually does make a big difference to people who are gay and struggling with the idea of coming out or being found out.  Now when somebody says, "who cares", when an athlete or other prominent person comes out, I have no problem telling them that a lot of gay people care, and that it does make a difference.  Thanks.

Sorry I'm coming in late to the discussion on this.

jmcconne I'm a very strong christian and probably share in many/most of your beliefs, but I want to strongly caution you on saying that homosexuality is a choice.  Yes, there are choices around homosexuality such as a person with same sex attraction can choose to not act on their attraction and remain celibate, but the underlying attraction itself isn't a choice in the way you describe.
There is huge debate about nature versus nurture in where same sex attraction comes from and I personally feel it's a combination of both with maybe 80% coming from the nurture part (just my personal opinion, no science behind it).  Every single one of us have sexual attractions that are developed at a very young age and we cannot explain it or choose to change it.  some men are sexually attracted to large bewbs, some are attracted to small bewbs, some like big booty's some like small booty's, some like brown hair, some like blonde hair.  I don't have a choice to be totally into blondes, it's just there.

There have been many scientific studies trying to find a "gay gene" that proves people are born gay, and it hasn't been found.  There have been many scientific studies trying to find certain parenting behaviors or abuse that proves people are "made gay" and it hasn't been found.  Unfortunately our sexuality is very complex and with living in a fallen world, it gets distorted in so many ways it's not even funny.  We see stories of people who are attracted to children, animals, trees, fence posts, you name it.  In those cases we're all pretty certain they weren't born that way but I can also tell you they don't choose to be attracted to them either and could have underlying genetic deficiencies that influenced them.  Thus, I feel it's a combination of nature (genetic wiring) and nurture (environment) that evolves our sexuality.

Now from a Christian standpoint I personally know people who have a same sex attraction and decided that they wanted to draw closer to God and try to change their behaviors.  They "chose" to exit from same sex relationships, but they couldn't choose to stop being attracted to the same sex.  Over time, and through lots of prayer and desire the two guys I know in my church have fallen in love with a member of the opposite sex and even gotten married (one has a baby on the way).  They still have the underlying same sex attraction and temptation to engage with members of the same sex (both of which have diminished over time), but they're choosing to not partake in it because of their belief in the Bible.

I've been counseling men on sexual addiction and sexual identity issues for over 9 years both in and out of the church and I can say with certainty that same sex attraction is not a choice, and as you discovered in this thread it's downright insulting to those that have to deal with it their whole lives.
Personally I feel that many (if not most) Christians get it so wrong on homosexuality because we elevate it to a "worst sin ever" status and treat people and organizations accordingly.  I can almost guarantee that you would have no issues at all if the Boy Scouts allowed a leader who was living with (and sleeping with) his girlfriend.  Sexual sin is sexual sin period and the Bible is very clear on this, so as hard as it may be we as Christians shouldn't treat it differently.

As for people leading youth groups in general, I personally have no problem with anyone gay or straight leading them as long as they don't have a criminal past.

What?  Justin's gay?  haha, just kidding.

Justin, you know I love you!  

Lol welcome to the discussion.  I was wondering where you were.  Good post.  I like your reference to how people tend to elevate this to the worst sin anyone could ever do according to the bible.  Now I am no Biblical scholar but from what I understand sin is sin.  I know many Christians who would never give me the time of the day that engage in premarital sexual relations, divorce, you name it. 

Most Christians (including myself) say that sin is sin and in the broadest context it's a true statement because all sin is sin against God and leads to eternal damnation (according to the Bible).  However, through belief in Jesus Christ who was sacrificed for those sins we are forgiven and able to go to heaven.

If you dig real deep there are some examples where the Bible mentions that certain people will be in "more torment" than others which leads to believe there are different "levels" of sin.  Most notably Jesus tells a story in Matthew 11:21-22 where he says it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon than it will be for Chorazin on the day of judgement.  In my study the context is comparable to saying that a murderer is going to be under more torment in hell than a person who stole a pack of gum.  They're both in hell, but one is getting it worse.  However, they both sinned against God and can both be forgiven through Christ and overcome their sin.  So hence, sin is sin when it comes to salvation.

What I just described above is best summarized in this Bible verse

Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[a] 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. - 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 (NIV)

I know several Christians as well that won't give the time of day to a gay person and it makes me sick.  Even if the motive is to "change you" I'm going to go out on a limb and say that it won't be successful if they never talk to you.   lol

Ironically we just had a sermon on "sex god's way" this past weekend.  I'd strongly encourage you to watch it.  I don't expect you to necessarily agree with anything, but I think you will gain a lot of education on what the Bible says about sex and sexual sin.  Might be handy to educate some of your self righteous Christian friends.  ;-)
http://www.calvarywo.com/media/current-message/

I've got more of a problem with people like the OP being allowed to be parents.

There are more people than we'd like to realise who still carry and publicise this kind of bigotry and his children will have to work hard to overcome not being infected with the same disease of the mind.  I hope they do for their sake.

Such an eye roller when they pull the 'I've got gay friends' card early.  Show those friends this thread and see if they still are afterwards.  

I don't think that's quite fair to say he has a disease of the mind.  Anyone in America is entitled to their opinion and to feel otherwise is just as bigoted.  Remember, a bigot is simply someone who is intolerant of people with different opinions.
If a Christian doesn't want their children to participate in a program that has leaders who aren't Christians then they have every right to do so.  It's no different than you refusing to send your children to a Christian camp because you feel they don't teach a message of tolerance.  I wouldn't think that your'e a bigot because of it.  You simply want what you feel is best for your children.

Obviously we can all have a debate on what is best for a kids growing up, but not a one of us will agree on everything.

I would normally agree with you Tuwood but it’s gone too far.  This isn’t an opinion.  It’s modern day discrimination.

The big difference between the boy scouts and a Christian camp is a core objective of a Christian camp is to reinforce Christian values, teach the word of God and further indoctrinate the children into the religion.  The purpose of the boy scouts is to help people, teach moral values, promote physical and social activity and have fun.

People delivering the objectives of a Christian Camp probably need to be Christian to pull that off because they need to know the weird bits that normal people wouldn’t consider necessary like not having sex before marriage, not being gay and giving 10% of your income to a Church.

People delivering the objectives of the boy scouts can be anyone at all.

 So it’s not the same and people have to stop hiding their bigotry behind a religious screen.  We’re not standing up to religious groups of any denomination enough on these issues.  They are driving huge wedges through our societies, stunting our children’s development and it needs to stop.

Is this still practiced by Scouts? I am not sure I was just looking up some stuff on the web. It has been awhile since my boys were in Scouts.

"Declaration of Religious Principle. The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God. In the first part of the Scout Oath or Promise the member declares, ‘On my honour I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law.’ The recognition of God as the ruling and leading power in the universe and the grateful acknowledgment of his favours and blessings are necessary to the best type of citizenship and are wholesome precepts in the education of the growing members."

My post was in reply to the poster complaining about teaching "Christian values" and it not being a "Christian camp" a post above. I know around here, a lot of Boy Scout troops meet in churches.

The boy scouts are independent of any single faith while maintain a belief in a higher power.

The point remains that it is absolutely not the same to discriminate against a gay person by campaigning against their employment as a leader within a group as it is to choose not to send your children to a camp that discriminates against gay people.

Both believers and non-believers need to do a better job of having civil dialog on topics like this.  Similar to earlier when Justin mentioned Christian people he knows that won't give him the time of day.  We all have different opinions and there's nothing wrong with that because we live in a country that has a constitution that allows us to be free thinkers.  I don't support a lot of things people believe, but I'll fight to the death to give everyone the right to believe what they want to believe and I'll have a civil debate with anyone to explain why I believe the things I believe.
Calling somebody "infected with the disease of the mind" or a bigot does nothing but show an individuals hatred and intolerance towards other people and most certainly will never convince them to listen to the opposing point of view.  I rally against Christians who go out and throw signs in peoples faces telling them they're going to hell because of X because it's stupid and does nothing more than increase the divide that they're trying to close.

Anyways, I'll get off my soap box

I stand by it. 

I’ve had enough of passively awarding someone the right to discriminate.

Loathing someone because they discriminate against others isn’t bigoted.  Loathing someone because of their sexuality is.  So again, it’s not the same thing and Christians have to hide behind these false screens of their countries constitution or their interpretation of a book written by some blokes hundreds of years ago to justify their behaviours.

You lot are going to look as stupid as racists do now in the not to distant future. And in the vast majority of the developed world, you already do.

I love your enthusiasm.  

You loath me and I've never discriminated against anyone.  I just happen to have a different opinion than you do about that book you mention, so I am "diseased" and worthy of bigotry?  This is the same kind of thinking that people use to alienate homosexuals.  They're different than me and don't believe what I believe so I'm going to loath them and publicly demean them any chance i get.

Jesus mentioned in the bible that we are to "do unto others as you would have them do to you".  This is the golden rule that all people, christian and otherwise, should strive to live by.  In other words, you can't simply loath people because they have a different moral compass than you do and then demand that they treat you and your beliefs otherwise.

I totally respect your opinion and even agree with the fact that we should never discriminate against anyone for any reasons.  However that doesn't mean I have no right to believe what somebody is doing isn't morally or spiritually wrong.