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Calling them out for cheating (Page 3)
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 2009-07-14 10:17 AM in reply to: #2279790 |
Veteran  740    The Woodlands, TX |  Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheatingAt the race briefing for Buffalo Springs HIM last month, the head official specifically warned that he would interput this scenario as "Blocking" and would give a yellow card penalty to the person who increased speed to keep from being passed. He specifically mentioned the scenario where the 40-year old man increases speed to keep from being passed by the 20-year old woman. He said this interpretation would only apply to people who were obviously in different age/gender groups. If you could reasonably expect that the person trying to pass was in your "race" (age group), then he said speeding up was part of racing, and making the pass was the responsibility of the person in back. I don't know if they actaully penalized anyone for this, but he talked about it for several minutes in the briefing. It seemed like an unusual interpretation of "blocking" to me. |
| 2009-07-14 10:48 AM in reply to: #2279790 |
Veteran 263 | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating Sorry if someone already quoted this, but it seems relevant, from the USAT rules: "5.10.g. Being Overtaken. When the leading edge of the front wheel of one cyclist passes beyond the front wheel of another cyclist, the second cyclist has been “overtaken” within the meaning of these Rules. A cyclist who has been overtaken bears primary responsibility for avoiding a position foul and must immediately move to the rear and out of the drafting zone of the passing cyclist. The overtaken cyclist shall first move completely out of the drafting zone of the other cyclist before attempting to re-pass the other cyclist." |
| 2009-07-14 11:05 AM in reply to: #2284056 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating g_shotts - 2009-07-14 10:17 AM At the race briefing for Buffalo Springs HIM last month, the head official specifically warned that he would interput this scenario as "Blocking" and would give a yellow card penalty to the person who increased speed to keep from being passed. He specifically mentioned the scenario where the 40-year old man increases speed to keep from being passed by the 20-year old woman. He said this interpretation would only apply to people who were obviously in different age/gender groups. If you could reasonably expect that the person trying to pass was in your "race" (age group), then he said speeding up was part of racing, and making the pass was the responsibility of the person in back. I don't know if they actaully penalized anyone for this, but he talked about it for several minutes in the briefing. It seemed like an unusual interpretation of "blocking" to me. "Unusual" to say the least. I would call it "wrong." Here are the relevant sections of the USAT rules: 5.10 Position Fouls. In accordance with the Rules as set forth in this section, a participant is not permitted to position his bicycle in the proximity of another moving vehicle so as to benefit from reduced air resistance. While on the cycling course, participants shall not work together to improve performance, efficiency, or position by teamwork or other joint conduct. A variable time penalty shall be imposed for any violation of this section. c. Right-of -Way. A participant is generally entitled to assume any otherwise proper location on the cycling course provided that the participant arrives in the position first without contacting another participant. When taking a position near another participant, however, a cyclist shall not crowd the other participant and shall allow reasonable space for the other participant to make normal movement without making contact. d. Blocking. Cyclists who have established the right of way must not block or obstruct the progress of another participant. Not sure how this applies to that scenario.... Really wondering at what point they decide the lead racer was being vindictive as opposed to competitve or even just riding his own race... Edited by the bear 2009-07-14 11:06 AM |
| 2009-07-14 11:38 AM in reply to: #2279790 |
| Extreme Veteran 413 | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating |
| 2009-07-14 1:22 PM in reply to: #2282440 |
| Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating Best explanation I've heard for the reason it's OK to draft the swim but not the bike. But is the no drafting rule on the bike really about safety? I mean, there are plenty of bike races (not to mention ITU tris) where drafting is legal. (Yeah, I know that there are also crashes in those races, but the point is that the safety issue does not prevent these races from occurring or allowing drafting.) I think the no drafting rule is absolutely only about safety. Just like the no ipod rule is about safety. ITU is the only triathlon I've seen that allows drafting and how many of those races are in the US? By the ITU website, there are 8. Do you know of a non-ITU triathlon that allows drafting? You're not allowed to ride tri bikes in UCI road races unless it's a time trial and the reason they list is safety... Only the traditional type of handlebars is authorised for use in massed-start road races, cyclo-cross and track competitions (except for individual and team pursuit, kilometer and 500 time trials). The attachment of any additional handlebar component or extension is prohibited. |
| 2009-07-14 1:40 PM in reply to: #2284648 |
Champion 7595 Columbia, South Carolina | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating GomesBolt - 2009-07-14 2:22 PM Best explanation I've heard for the reason it's OK to draft the swim but not the bike. But is the no drafting rule on the bike really about safety? I mean, there are plenty of bike races (not to mention ITU tris) where drafting is legal. (Yeah, I know that there are also crashes in those races, but the point is that the safety issue does not prevent these races from occurring or allowing drafting.) I think the no drafting rule is absolutely only about safety. Just like the no ipod rule is about safety. ITU is the only triathlon I've seen that allows drafting and how many of those races are in the US? By the ITU website, there are 8. Do you know of a non-ITU triathlon that allows drafting? No, I don't, but of course there are loads of road bike races that allow drafting, and safety doesn't seem to be the issue there. You're not allowed to ride tri bikes in UCI road races unless it's a time trial and the reason they list is safety... Right, but this seems to me to get it backwards. We ride tri bikes because we are not allowed to draft, not vice versa. At least, that's my understanding of the history here, but I could be wrong. Edited by Experior 2009-07-14 1:41 PM |
| 2009-07-14 2:38 PM in reply to: #2284239 |
Elite 3471 Evergreen, CO | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating 5.10 Position Fouls. In accordance with the Rules as set forth in this section, a participant is not permitted to position his bicycle in the proximity of another moving vehicle so as to benefit from reduced air resistance. While on the cycling course, participants shall not work together to improve performance, efficiency, or position by teamwork or other joint conduct. A variable time penalty shall be imposed for any violation of this section.
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| 2009-07-14 2:47 PM in reply to: #2284879 |
Champion 5117 Brandon, MS | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating skarl - 2009-07-14 2:38 PM 5.10 Position Fouls. In accordance with the Rules as set forth in this section, a participant is not permitted to position his bicycle in the proximity of another moving vehicle so as to benefit from reduced air resistance. While on the cycling course, participants shall not work together to improve performance, efficiency, or position by teamwork or other joint conduct. A variable time penalty shall be imposed for any violation of this section. Good to know. At my race Sunday a horse trailer was trying to pass bikers but was going slowly because up ahead bikers were passing bikers. I was tempted to get behind the trailer because I didn't think the rules prohibited drafting other than off other bikes. Glad I didn't do it. Then there's always the fun scenario of what might happen if that horse trailer stops. I'm also glad you didn't do it. Edited by sesh 2009-07-14 2:48 PM |
| 2009-07-14 2:50 PM in reply to: #2279790 |
Elite 3471 Evergreen, CO | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating Another question. If I'm ready to pass and check over my shoulder to make sure it's clear, and another rider is to the left but back, do I have to make sure I'm still 3 bike lengths ahead before I make my move to pass? Or can I pass quickly and get over to the right so they can then pass me? I don't mean I'm jumping right in front of them, but it may not be a full 3 lengths. Does it depend on whether there's room for us to ride 3 across? Or does the person behind me have to drop back just a bit so there's 3 lengths between us? Also, if people to the right are drafting, I've assumed I can pass them all, having 15 seconds to pass each one even tho there isn't room for me to get to the right after passing each one. HOpe this is correct, otherwise I'm being penalized for them drafting. |
| 2009-07-14 3:06 PM in reply to: #2284915 |
Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating skarl - 2009-07-14 2:50 PM Another question. If I'm ready to pass and check over my shoulder to make sure it's clear, and another rider is to the left but back, do I have to make sure I'm still 3 bike lengths ahead before I make my move to pass? Or can I pass quickly and get over to the right so they can then pass me? I don't mean I'm jumping right in front of them, but it may not be a full 3 lengths. Does it depend on whether there's room for us to ride 3 across? Or does the person behind me have to drop back just a bit so there's 3 lengths between us? Also, if people to the right are drafting, I've assumed I can pass them all, having 15 seconds to pass each one even tho there isn't room for me to get to the right after passing each one. HOpe this is correct, otherwise I'm being penalized for them drafting.
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| 2009-07-14 3:48 PM in reply to: #2281585 |
Pro 5011 Twin Cities | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating GomesBolt - 2009-07-13 1:22 PM I had an interesting encounter with a drafter. I passed a lady (that had a 10 min head start because I was in the clyde wave and she was an AGer). She jumped right-on to my wheel and stayed there no matter what I did. About 5 miles later, I went over a bump and heard a thud and a crash. My bottle had fallen out of my seat bottle cage and she apparently hit said drafter. I felt bad that she hit it, but she should've been far enough-back to go around it. I saw later she was DQd (don't know if that should'a been DNF). So there's an example of Karma knocking her out. Technically, you were also in violation of the rules and could have been penalized as well. |
| 2009-07-14 3:54 PM in reply to: #2279790 |
Pro 5011 Twin Cities | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating Personally, I worry about my race and not what other folks are doing. It's my job to race...it's the officials' job to ensure that we are all following the rules. Will they catch everyone? No. Will they sometimes catch "innocent" folks? Sure. Happens in every sport. Thems the breaks. |
| 2009-07-14 3:57 PM in reply to: #2280223 |
Expert 1074 Madison, MS | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating Slugger - 2009-07-13 3:41 AM I made someone work really, REALLY hard to cheat. She was pretty hard up on my tail, though I wasn't counting bike lengths, and then she went to pass. I laid that hammer down and wouldn't let her by, so she finally had to drop back. Next time she tried it, I laid the hammer down again, and was holding her off, but she just held on right next to me, her front wheel at my back. My watch was set to go off every 30 seconds, and it went off twice while she was next to me. I called out, "30 seconds, drop it!" At which point, we came to an uphill, I had already blown myself out screwing with her, and she finally got her wheel in front of mine. She was a much faster cyclist overall, but damn, I made her work hard for that pass, and I was so hoping an official would see it and call her on it!  Oh, yeah, and she was on a pretty nice roadie, and I was on my decade-old beat-up mtn bike. Cheater? Yep. Sorry she picked on me? I'm bettin'! Ah yes. You're the person that totally pisses me off. Slows down when I'm behind you so I start riding up your a$$, so have to try and make a pass in order not to draft (and would rather not go slower to accommodate you), then as soon as I try and make the pass, you put the hammer down, so I can't and am caught in a bad place because once committed, I have to make the pass in 15 seconds. So, I drop back because I am not going to be able to do it, and I hope there is no official around to see, you let up, and I ride up your damn a$$ again. Sigh. |
| 2009-07-14 4:07 PM in reply to: #2284648 |
Pro 5011 Twin Cities | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating I think the no drafting rule is absolutely only about safety. Just like the no ipod rule is about safety. ITU is the only triathlon I've seen that allows drafting and how many of those races are in the US? By the ITU website, there are 8. Do you know of a non-ITU triathlon that allows drafting? I think, in part, safety is a concern...and, you also have to consider the freakishly litigious society in which we (particularly Americans) live. So yes, safety (or pseudo-safety enforced b/c of fear of lawsuits) plays a role. But I think it is far less about safety than it is the fact that drafting in a tri on the bike changes the flavour of the race entirely (if it were solely about saftey, we wouldn't have draft legal racing). Triathlon was conceived as, basically, a 3-event "race of truth" (or, a tripartate time-trial, if you want). Drafting was illegal--even before aerobars were commonplace. A non-ITU tri is an INDIVIDUAL sport. The idea is to win, you must be good in all three sports. In a draft legal tri, strategy is far different, and it favors other folks. All you need to do is come out of the water in front, and get yoruself in and cozy with a nice group of riders, and chill until the run portion. And, for spectators, it probably IS more interesting to watch that type of race...hence part of the ITU (and the olympics) going that way. More excitement=more viewers; more viewers=more $$. So...essentially, you have two sports: one that favors the strong swimmer and runner, and is good for sponsorship and TV $$...and one that favors a more balanced athlete, and perhaps is less of a media darling. |
| 2009-07-14 5:37 PM in reply to: #2284963 |
Elite 3471 Evergreen, CO | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating the bear - 2009-07-14 2:06 PM skarl - 2009-07-14 2:50 PM Another question. If I'm ready to pass and check over my shoulder to make sure it's clear, and another rider is to the left but back, do I have to make sure I'm still 3 bike lengths ahead before I make my move to pass? Or can I pass quickly and get over to the right so they can then pass me? I don't mean I'm jumping right in front of them, but it may not be a full 3 lengths. Does it depend on whether there's room for us to ride 3 across? Or does the person behind me have to drop back just a bit so there's 3 lengths between us? Also, if people to the right are drafting, I've assumed I can pass them all, having 15 seconds to pass each one even tho there isn't room for me to get to the right after passing each one. HOpe this is correct, otherwise I'm being penalized for them drafting.
Tnx Bear! I never get in front of someone if I think they'll have to slow down for me, but I usually pass if I know I can get in front of the person I'm passing before the person behind me is ready to pass me. I may not be fast but I am courteous  |
| 2009-07-14 5:58 PM in reply to: #2279790 |
| Regular 281 | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating I don't know if anyone has asked this yet. If the USAT or any other traithlon organization allowed drafting in the bicycle leg of the race, would you do it? And would you have a problem with someone doing it to you if it was legal? |
| 2009-07-14 6:33 PM in reply to: #2279790 |
Elite 4547 | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating Personally, if somebody is really drafting off of me, I'll let it go...to a point. After a while they're gonna catch some water or Gatorade from up ahead. Cheaters suck. |
| 2009-07-14 7:20 PM in reply to: #2279790 |
Veteran 281 | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating I read a few posts on calling people out, yelling at them, making comments, etc... Keep in mind that bad sportsmanship is a penalty as well. If you say anything derogatory especially foul language you can be penalized or even DQ'd. In regards to throwing something behind you (water, gatorade)... is it really worth the risk of causing an accident and potentially injuring someone? What about the person riding three bike lengths behind the drafter, how would you feel if you injured that person with your unsportsmanlike actions? My opinion, if someone throws something at another competitor, that person should be banned for life from all USAT events. I'm just sayin.. Edited by snowriderinfl 2009-07-14 7:29 PM |
 2009-07-14 8:09 PM in reply to: #2285585 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2009-07-15 1:44 AM in reply to: #2285128 |
| Master 2665 The Whites, New Hampshire | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating kvesey - 2009-07-14 4:57 PM Ah yes. You're the person that totally pisses me off. Slows down when I'm behind you so I start riding up your a$$, so have to try and make a pass in order not to draft (and would rather not go slower to accommodate you), then as soon as I try and make the pass, you put the hammer down, so I can't and am caught in a bad place because once committed, I have to make the pass in 15 seconds. So, I drop back because I am not going to be able to do it, and I hope there is no official around to see, you let up, and I ride up your damn a$$ again. Sigh. Uhhh, 'scuse me? Where did I EVER say I slowed down? I was riding a freakin' MOUNTAIN BIKE! She was obviously capable of going substantially faster than me, as I beat her out of T1 by a good margin and she was riding my tail by mile 1. Once she finally did pass me, she was way out of sight in no time. I sure as HECK wasn't slowing down to pull any games - I just sped up to make her work for her pass. When I couldn't maintain that speed any more, I dropped back. What I did was absolutely legal, and a legit race strategy. Would you call me out for sprinting all out the final quarter mile of my run, thus passing three people? Who here DOESN'T specifically work on THAT race strategy? Could be construed as the same type of thing (though without the rules issue) - I'm gonna make my competitors work as hard as I possibly can to beat me, and I'm going to work as hard as I can to beat them. You don't like it, that's fine. Tell me how my booty looks when you see me at the finish line, k? I'm would NEVER do this to just anyone, and I would certainly not do it to someone that I *knew* was outside my AG. I have no interest in screwing up other people's races, but this is a race, and if I can gain a legitimate advantage, I'll take it. Especially if I'm taking it over someone who is NOT gaining a legitimate advantage. |
| 2009-07-15 6:00 AM in reply to: #2286004 |
| Resident Curmudgeon 25290 The Road Back Gold member | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating Slugger - 2009-07-15 1:44 AM Would you call me out for sprinting all out the final quarter mile of my run, thus passing three people? Who here DOESN'T specifically work on THAT race strategy? Uh, me, as it isn't a very good strategy IMHO. I would prefer to properly pace the run, the whole race for that matter, rather than have enough for an all out sprint at the end to pass three people I would have been in front of anyway. |
| 2009-07-15 6:19 AM in reply to: #2286074 |
| Subject: ... This user's post has been ignored. |
| 2009-07-15 7:27 AM in reply to: #2285106 |
| Austin, Texas or Jupiter, Florida | Subject: RE: Calling them out for cheating mmrocker13 - 2009-07-14 4:48 PM GomesBolt - 2009-07-13 1:22 PM I had an interesting encounter with a drafter. I passed a lady (that had a 10 min head start because I was in the clyde wave and she was an AGer). She jumped right-on to my wheel and stayed there no matter what I did. About 5 miles later, I went over a bump and heard a thud and a crash. My bottle had fallen out of my seat bottle cage and she apparently hit said drafter. I felt bad that she hit it, but she should've been far enough-back to go around it. I saw later she was DQd (don't know if that should'a been DNF). So there's an example of Karma knocking her out. Technically, you were also in violation of the rules and could have been penalized as well. Is that because I was "littering on the course" or are you saying because she was drafting off of me? Either way, you're right. As far as the ITU thing, every ITU race I've watched is all-about that 10K speed and especially about the last 1K. The bike is always boring. It's not Basketball or Football, it's an endurance sport. There's no spectator value like there is in a sport with a ball. I didn't fully understand why NBC delays the showing of Kona 2 months until I realized that 90% of people watching need the human-interest pieces the whole time because that's what the sport is about, overcoming things, putting a priority on training, and making the cut to Kona. Irregardlesslynessitude, in USAT drafting is illegal on the bike, and not illegal in the swim or the run. The rules are there. |
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