General Discussion Triathlon Talk » HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH! Rss Feed  
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2005-09-02 11:21 AM
in reply to: #239364

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Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
mikericci - 2005-09-01 9:05 PM

Can you define Anaerobic Threshold and Lactate Threshold?


Your definition of LT is fine, AFAIK. Another good explanation is here:
http://www.velonews.com/train/articles/8217.0.html

LT is a stable condition. Anaerobic is not, it's the point at which you start to blow up. I know the terms are used interchangeably but in my mind, Anaerobic is that point where you can only go about 60s once you cross it, and LT is much less of a scary place. Scientifically speaking:
At the highest extreme, the workload requires an additional formation and
accumulation of lactate to maintain power output. Exhaustion results through
the disturbance of the internal biochemical environment of the working muscles
and whole body caused by a high or maximal acidosis. Generally, accumulation of
lactate limits performance to periods from 30 sec to 15 min. For example, the
average time to exhaustion at the minimal velocity that elicits VO2max is 6:30
and is not correlated with the blood lactate level developed during the task. (Billat, L. V. (1996))
I really didn't think the field test would be reliable but I see now that it appears to be quite accurate. I know what I'm doing next week. i've just finished expanding my volume and doing base. I'm reluctant to give up my nice big numbers on the charts but it's time to take the volume down and the intensity up. An LT test will be a nice way to start the next phase.

FWIW here is an article that suggests that LT as used in coaching might not be as valuable as we think:
http://www.roble.net/marquis/coaching/billat.html



2005-09-02 11:28 AM
in reply to: #239689

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8763
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Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
Thanks for all the good information. Good luck on your test!
2005-09-02 1:24 PM
in reply to: #239689

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Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!

dovecom - 2005-09-02 11:21 AM
mikericci - 2005-09-01 9:05 PM Can you define Anaerobic Threshold and Lactate Threshold?
  FWIW here is an article that suggests that LT as used in coaching might not be as valuable as we think: http://www.roble.net/marquis/coaching/billat.html

By looking at that article, then we should assume that any method used to determine training zones wouldn't be "valuable" or reliable, right? that's why it is so hard to rely only on your HR as many variables can and will changed from one workout to the next… isn’t it why we determine training zones but also rely on HR, perceived exertion, power meters, pedometers, etc. I don’t think training based only on your LT will be either 100% accurate or the only way you should go about defining your training zones. However, using it as a base I think gives you a BETTER parameter for training instead of the 220- age formula. I used that formula for a while and it developed my overall fitness of course but as soon as started trained based on LT I definitely improved much faster. Maybe it was a result of the previous work maybe not. What I know is that if this method is used by elite athletes, and recommended by experienced coaches it is because it provides positive training results even though it is not approved 100% by the scientific community.

Ex: I am 30, and based on that formula my MHR would be 190, hence training at 75-80% of MHR would put me on 143-152. In fact my MHR is anywhere between 198 and 200 so training at 75% of my MHR would be around 148-158. My running LT is at 184, hence my Z2 is at 157-167… that’s a BIG difference

2005-09-02 2:39 PM
in reply to: #239791

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8763
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Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
I agree. I usually use the HRM as data and information, and I use it to control my effort more than anything. I know what 'hard' feels like and I have a pretty good idea what 'pushing too had' feels like too. And I know the range of numbers I typically see when I feel that way.

You make some good points and thanks for sharing your comparison, that is a big difference!
2005-09-02 8:28 PM
in reply to: #237705

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Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
2005-09-02 9:07 PM
in reply to: #240023

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8763
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Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
Nice find. pretty much sums it up.


2005-09-03 8:01 AM
in reply to: #237705

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Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!

Ok I have not done the test yet I will. 

Today I  did my fastest mile to date 8:55  not to fast I know.  using the 220-51 by Max Hr is 169

during this mile my MAX hr was 169 but  average 154. at 169 it was getting a little tought at 162 it was not an all out effort but a very good pace.  Not sure where I am going with this.  but My thinking is that the 169 number is low for my Max HR.   most of my trainiing runs have been at about a 14 min mile pace ave HR 128 or so.

2005-09-03 11:19 AM
in reply to: #240107

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8763
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Boulder, Colorado
Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
8:55 isn't slow. Speed is relative. You'll get faster once you know your training zones and you start training properly. Give it some time. We were ALL where you are now. Just be patient. :-)
2005-09-04 11:33 AM
in reply to: #237705

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Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
Used my running HR zones for an LSD bike today. They worked really well!
Came off a two + hour ride (27.5 miles). Did a 15 min run in the same zone. Felt better and went further on the run then any brick prior.
I'm a happy camper! Thanks for the prod. And, yes, I will do a bike LT test, but I have to figure out an appropriate course and get some help for that one.
2005-09-04 11:40 AM
in reply to: #240446

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8763
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Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
Great job! LT bike test can be done on a trainer, outside or both. It's good to have inside and outside LT numbers for the bike. Good work, keep it up!
2005-09-05 2:11 PM
in reply to: #237705

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Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
It has been mentioned breifly but not in detail:

How can we use our moring resting HR to help determine if we're getting adequate recovery?

This is a great thread. Thanks.


2005-09-05 2:23 PM
in reply to: #240915

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8763
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Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
Typcially, I look for a 5-8 beat or greater variance. Once you know your resting HR when you wake up you will know what that variance typically is. Taking your MRHR (morning resting HR) every day for a week or so will show where it usually is.
2005-09-05 3:42 PM
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Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
Can you define, more specifically, when to take my morning resting HR? As soon as I throw my covers back, my HR rises. Is it after I get my slippers on or is it while I'm still lying in bed? Certainly rolling over and attaching my HRM will cause an increase. As comfortable as the band is, i'm not sure I could sleep in it...
2005-09-05 5:32 PM
in reply to: #240948

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8763
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Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
What I do is get up, go the bathroom, drink some water and then sit and relax for a few minutes and take it then. Most time I take it manually. As long as you take it the same way all the time you will get consistent results.
2005-09-06 11:48 AM
in reply to: #237705

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Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!

I have noticed that getting up, going to the bathroom, go downstairs to the kitchen for a glass of water and relaxing prior to measuring just as Mike does gives me the same results as taking it in bed. I always measure manually, for a full minute and average three measurements. One as I wake up in bed, the other two after the routine above with two minute interval between them. They are generally consitent and off by a beat or two. Currently I am at 43~44, but have seen as low as 40. The values have been going down (from 60~62) for just over a year since I went back to training after 15 years of sedentary life. I am now at about the same low I had as a 20 year old.

2005-09-06 6:22 PM
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Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
Ok, I know this thread seems to not want to die so here goes

This morning I went and did the run LT test as you prescribed. Timed the last 20 minutes of my run and registered a average HR of 180. My HR went as high as 190 during the last few minutes of it.

I am confident that I gave it all I could during the run so I guess I can trust that my run LT HR is in fact 180 right now.

I will use the spreadsheet you attached to set-up my zones. Just remind me, for my LSD, I should be within Z1 and Z2 right? I remember you writing that we should not be concerned with Z3 and th when should I be using Z4 and 5 again?....I want to get this right.

I want to make sure the way I train will ensure that I will get faster at the same level of exertion.

Thanks for the great help.


2005-09-06 6:32 PM
in reply to: #241697

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8763
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Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
Steve - good man! I am glad you did the run. So, yes, Zone 1-2 for now, and really get that base rolling. Zone 3 is more for after base period, but you can use it somewhat for the hills AFTER you have a very solid base built. Then you hit the Z4-5 stuff when you are getting ready to race - about 6-10 weeks from your A race. There will be times when you hit those zones by accident, but try not to do this too often.
2005-09-06 7:18 PM
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Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
Thanks Mike.

One last thing..(really , I think thats all for now)

What is considered to be LSD? I mean, I can run within Z1 Z2 for quite some time but when does it become long enough to actually become beneficial to my training? As previously noted, my average run is approx 10km (1 hour or so at Z1 and 2) is this long enough to create benefits? When IO complete my 10km I feel like I have had a good workout but should I be going longer?

On the other hand, I ran over 2 hours last Friday and feel that was too much for my current level of fitness. Should I stick to a 10k per session and try to aim at increasing speed as my LT improves?
2005-09-06 7:24 PM
in reply to: #241725

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8763
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Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
Steve,

LSD-here is something I wrote on it last year: http://www.d3multisport.com/articles/lsd.htm
I think going to 1:30 is a big breakthrough - even if you have to use the run/walk method. If you were to run 9 cycles of 8/2 (8 minutes run/2 minutes walkl) that would give you 90 minutes but in reality it would be 12 more minutes of running beyond the 1:00 you are running now. You can gain a lot of endurance and fitness by utilizing the run/walk method. Give it a try.

Eventually you will run faster at the same HR, so that 10k time should be coming down, so you will need to extend the time you run anyway. Try that 8/2 run and let me know how it goes....
2005-09-06 7:34 PM
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Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
Honnestly, I think I can probably do 90 minutes properly as long as I keep my HR in check, as mentioned in many other threads, I might need to slow down my pace to a gentle trot to get the HR in the zone. I did that last week and although my ego took a hit, I do see how it can be beneficial.

I just sort of have the "don't walk" mind set so the last thing I really want to do is walk part of the course, unless my HR gets ahead of me.

I'll let you know how things go after a few runs Mike.

Thanks again
2005-09-06 7:41 PM
in reply to: #241735

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8763
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Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
Steve

My 5k PR is under 17:00 and my 1/2 IM run PR is under 1:30 - and I walk on my runs on most days. There is nothing wrong with it, and at the same time, I understand your 'don't walk' mind set. :-)


2005-09-07 5:19 AM
in reply to: #241740

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Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
OK  so this mornint I did the LT run test Ave HR was 157   some body point me in the right direction to do the math. and then let me know what I should do with all this new info
2005-09-07 6:48 AM
in reply to: #241902

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8763
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Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
Download this calc: http://www.beginnertriathlete.com/discussion/forums/thread-view.asp...

Then keep your longer runs in Zone 1-2. Your shorter runs can be in a higher Z2. When you run race pace workouts, you can go into Z4-5.

This is all depends on your experience. There are some article on my site (left hand side) on HR training. If you have questions, post them here.

Articles: http://www.d3multisport.com/articles.html

This should get you started in the right direction.
2005-09-07 7:23 AM
in reply to: #237705

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Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
Mike,

How do you factor heat load into the heart rate zones? I have been monitoring my HR during workouts and the temperature and dewpoint during those workouts and I can see a very large difference in the HR for a given performance level based on the temp and dewpoint.

In particular, if the dewpoint gets very high (mid 70s) sweating doesn't work very well as a cooling mechanism. I've noticed as high as 15-20 bpms difference in average heart rate for the same pace. I've noticed this on the bike as well as runs.

Any thoughts?

Brittain
2005-09-07 8:12 AM
in reply to: #237705

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Subject: RE: HR Zones: 220-Age - the TRUTH!
The Calculator will not down load My running is very close to your excample however what are the % that I should use ? That way I can do my bike as well.
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