California shooting...... (Page 3)

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn




Meh, your first paragraph makes kind of a weak argument. Our judicial system isn't built on absolute certainty, since absolute certainly is nearly impossible to acertain, rather it's built upon the standard of "reasonable doubt". If there are generally-agreed-upon protocols whereby mental health professionals can determine with a high degree of accuracy that certain people pose a danger to themeselves or others, I'm ok with depriving those people of the means to do harm until it can be determined that the threat no longer exists. Will they be wrong sometime? Yeah, probably, and that's unfortunate, but if they can be right an overwhelming majority of the time, I'm ok with there being a few outliers. We're perfectly comfortable in this country with capital punishment, even though the judicial system doesn't get it right 100% of the time either, so there's no reason why we need to apply a 100% standard of perfection to mental health assessments.

Regarding your second point, even today, there are circumstances in which one's 2A rights can be taken away, no? I'm not even necessarily saying that a person who is identified as having a violent mental illness needs to have their guns taken away permanently. Once they're determined to no longer be a threat, they can have their guns back. Their right to bear arms shouldn't infringe on other peoples' right to not be murdered. The 2A is a pillar of our Constitution, but I think there's a segment of the population who have convinced themselves that the 2A supercedes all other constitutional rights, and nowhere in the Constitution does it say that.

Originally posted by NXS



In both cases, my point is when you start talking about taking away an individual's rights we need to be very careful because when they are gone there will be no getting them back.

Originally posted by powerman

Well to just jump in... I had a coworker that went through a very nasty divorce. I won't go into detail, but this guy was OUT THERE. I was absolutely dumbfounded how he still had a job. I am not one for sensational thinking.... but I regularly though when we make national news for a shooting spree... that the entire country would look at us like we were the biggest idiots around. The signs were everywhere... it was crazy. But the guy never did anything... well yet.  Because we just don't know right? He saw conspiracies every where of how his wife was out to get him, and management was involved, and the cops, and the phone company.... He would joke all the time about how his therapist says he is a ticking time bomb... and he would end a lot of discussions with.... and then there was a gun.... 

Seriously... the law and doctors were involved, and you would just take a glancing look and say my God, this guy needs to be locked up... but he didn't do anything... well yet. Things seems to have settled down... and maybe it is the "quiet ones" you really need to worry about. this guy talked about it all the time.... but we don't know do we? Because the guy didn't commit a crime to be locked up for. And if things go the way they are, he should not be locked up, because he didn't do anything bad. So what do you do?

I don't mean to hold this guy up as a DB, but it's the conversation we are having. If there was ever a workplace shooting here there would be a name that would come immediately to mind. And then everyone would look and say... just how much evidence did you need... yet, he is a law abiding citizen and has not cause anymore problems. So how many do you lock up because you think they "might" do something bad, and how many bad things will you ACTUALLY prevent by doing so?

Originally posted by annie

 

Powerman, this sure illustrates the problem.  The police must hear of many people that seem right on the edge and ethically/legally they can't do anything. As the situation is these individuals must pull the trigger or knife a bunch of folks before anything can be done.

As a side note what is DB?

Originally posted by Left Brain

That's not true.  The Police can do plenty, and we do every day.  We involuntarily commit people daily....and they are released the next day.  If we can find a reason to arrest them for peace disturbance, disorderly conduct, etc., we do that too....and they are released almost immediately.  We take guns all the time, sometimes at a families request for "safekeeping", sometimes because we can articulate a threat to someone, sometimes during drug search warrants, blah,blah,blah......we melt hundreds....no, thousands.

This I know.....there are too many guns to ever say we can get rid of them.....besides, I don't know anyone who wants to, at least not in my circle of friends., and I surely don't.  Who the hell wants to live in a place where only the Police have guns. (take it from an insider, you don't)

I can do my job......but from there the system is a mess.  There really is no avenue to keep crazy people locked up.....and at this point, probably even more important.....there is no where to put them. 

We don't just hear about people who are on the edge, we deal with them every day.  In fact, it's become one of our main jobs. (not what I signed up for, but it fits what we do so we do it)

The only thing I know to do is take people seriously when they make threats.....just believe them.  Once you do that, the rest is easy.  It gets muddy when we try to figure out who is serious and who isn't.....THAT is not my job, and apparently nobody can figure that one out.  It's not easy.....I wouldn't want to do it.

Originally posted by powerman

Well when you say it like that... then sure. People are not loosing their liberty for no reason... they are loosing it for making threats. Don't make threats. Seems simple.