GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!! (Page 31)

Edited by midlifeinsanity 2010-05-23 8:01 PM

M -

I think we can find stuff for you!

Can you do whey? I'm sure there are several powders that are whey-based, with no soy. Recoverite, for example has this profile: maltodextrin, whey protein isolate, xylitol, natural flavor, white stevia.

Maltodextrin is a complex carbohydrate, and stevia is a natural sugar, I am sure. So, would Recoverite work for you? (If not, i will look further afield! )

As for artificial sugars, I know that HammerGel would not use them, and looking at an AccelGel right in front of me, it has whey as a protein source (rare in a gel; see post above to Mark), and uses dextrose and high fructose corn syrup as sweeteners.

OOPS! Fine print on AccelGel under "Allergen Information": "Contains milk. Manufactured in a facility that processes eggs, wheat, soy. peanuts, and almonds." Is that enough to rule out AccelGel? And is it a strict allergy you have to soy, or just an intense dislike?

DARREN -

Interesting comments, and probably very accurate perceptions!

In my mind, HR is most important for running, of partial importance for cycling, and as I've said last night and today, of limited importance for swimming. I can hit any of my zones when I run, just depending on how much I want to suffer or how lazy I'm feeling. With cycling, I doubt I've ever hit Z5 and sustained it, and maybe the same thing for Z4. To hit and sustain work in those zones would have me riding very carelessly, downright dangerously. Nope, i'm not going there!

When you mention the McMillan/Daniels zones, are you referring to the descriptive ones - Endurance, Stamina, Speed, Sprint? (Are the last two reversed?)

If so, I'd say that Endurance is comparable to Zone 1 is th standard HR zone sequence. I think there is a huge range to what McM. and D. allow for Endurance, isn't here? Like, a several-minutes difference in pace per minute?

Stamina is Zone 2, and the next one (Speed or Sprint??) is Zone 3, maybe bordering on Zone 4. And then the last one is strictly redlining, I guess, so that puts it at Zone 5 ideally, Zone 4 for most mortals who don't want to suffer to the max.

Does that help at all? I guess i ought to go and check their parameters for each of their zones. But for you and how you describe yourself, I think you're clearly focused on their Endurance catagory, which would keep you comfotably knocking off the big distances in Zone 1. Does that sound about right?

Edited by midlifeinsanity 2010-05-23 8:02 PM

DWAYNE -

Not for the faint of heart, those Warrior Dash events! I'd never heard of them before, so my education in Radical has added a newchunk of knowledge.

So for you and the Texas event, 14 obstacles in 3.51 miles -- with medical staff to be on hand if there is "suffering". Hmmmmm.

The site didn't load the info on the obstacles, so that will be a vicarious thrill to await me at some future point.

And 18 waves, with up to 500 hardy (or foolhardy? ) souls in each. Can you say "mass frenzy". Or "kinetic energy run amok"? They didn't mention a priest to minister last rights before the fun begins.....but maybe that's just a foregone conclusion!

Well it does sound fun (and I notice that one of the sidebars has a big advertisement for paint-balling!), in the way that most extreme sports are fun.

Have you done one of these before? I'll bet they're highly addictive, and I wonder how many people travel the "circuit", or as much of it as they can.

And when your dash is finished, it is mandatory that you post a photo of yourself in the warrior helmet. No excuses for no photo!!

Ok Steve & all,
I'm tardy. But not dead.
I *have* been training but not like I had been before Christmas. I have three words for you. HOT BUTTERED RUM.

Anyway, I'm so overwhelmed with the  level of expertise in this group...I am so outta my league here. I'm barely qualified to participate!

To answer some questions that I've seen posted:

My bike:
I have a Trek 2100 on order but it's on backorder...rude! So it better hurry up so I can get used to it before my first duathlon in March. I have been riding my Trek Hybrid but it has flowers on it and leather seat/handlebars and I don't want people to laugh at the fatty on the granny bike! 

My training log:
I'm not very good at keeping a log of my lameness. So I made it my NYrs Resolution. I tried several apps for my android phone but didn't find one I liked, so I'm doing a calendar type thing in Excel. It's working out great.

What I'm doing now:
Hmmm, I'm having a tough time getting to the gym as much as I'd like. I'm only going 4-5 days a week and I like to go 6-7 and have at least 2 2-a-days. I'm not swimming at all. I just can't do it. I flop around in there like a buffoon so I have no confidence to do it. My daughter bought me the Speedo neoprene hand fin things to try but I just don't want to swim in there with the teenage swim team or buff lifeguards...I know, I'm insecure. I'm running 3 miles at the gym when I go, even before class (which is nothing compared to most of you). I ride the bike (I also have a trainer in my garage) and I use the rowing machine. I'm finding it hard to even get the motivation, with kids home for the holidays (they went to school ONE DAY and we were out for snow, ugh) Plus I work at home (I own my own web design business) and have three children, 17, 11, and 3.5....so unless I *make* time for myself when they are home from school, my exercise suffers and I'm pissed because I've put on pounds from the holidays...shocker. I don't want to give up my cardioboxing to actually train for my races at this very moment because they are the only reason I'm dragging my big butt to the gym...
I'll get better, promise.

My shoes:
I'm addicted to Asics Gel Nimbus. I wont wear anything else. I have three pair that I rotate to give the foam time to re-inflate from the sheer weight of me stomping on them. I'm also very anal about my running shoes being dirty, I won't wear them anywhere but to exercise. I pay so much for the darn things, I'm not going to waste the precious life of them by wearing them to Target!
 
An aside:
My hubby just found out that he is probably moving into a director position at his company...which means we could be selling everything we own and doing a "Jeffersons"... moving on up! So that's great but I'd be leaving my gym and be very busy with the move....plus I'm already on shaky ground with my exercise/weight gain. 

So, to sum up my blabbering....I'm here. 

 

Edited by midlifeinsanity 2010-05-23 8:02 PM

ROBYN -

Welcome back!! I admit to having been worried about you, but if I'd known it was just a matter of hot buttered rum, that would've allayed my fears!

So many things to comment on!

Most important, to my mind at least, is you comment about being barely qualified to paticipate in this group. Just through interest and the commitment you are making to yourself, you are FULLY qualified to participate, and I don't think any of us feel otherwise.

As far as being out of your league, just remember that there are between 5 and 7 of you with varying degrees of newness to this stuff --- and that for the rest of us, we were all once as new as you feel yourself to be right now. But you're right in feeling that there is a fair bit of expertise here, and with each passing day I'm floored by that, too. The initial roster of my other group was predominantly people who were quite new or completely new to multisport, so this year's group (which is you guys) is really very different.

But there sure are a lot of the group who know a lot and love sharing it around, and that seems very special. We are moving very quickly (amassing posts and pages), to be sure, but on any given page there are many posts that are brimming with thoughts and information. That's gotta be a big old plus, right?

Given your commitments (that would be job and family), you have a huge amount on your plate and you are doing a fabulous job of fitting exercise and triathlon goals into it. Never forget that for a couple of us (me, Anne....maybe Denise?) life's big commitments are behind us. For me, well, the kids are 25 and 23, and off on their own; my parents are long gone; I've been retired for 2.5 years. There's Lynn who is still working, and Luna our sweet old dog --- but nothing else. It doesn't get much more simple that that.

For you, though, not only do you have three kids (not to mention the big kid in the photo!), but the ages of them mean that you constantly need three different tactics to tend to their various age-related requirements; that's a humungous job right there!

And still, you're managing to make it to the gym 4-5 days a week, and doing the trainer in the garage and the rower, and running in your beloved Nimbuses (Nimbii?). And the cardioboxing, too - we can't forget that! And there's no reason to give that up quite yet, especially if it's something you love. Fit it in whenever you feel it works, or especially whenever you feel you NEED it. It's usually emotionally risky to give up something you love, especially when you can't immediately replace it with something of equal or greater value.

A Trek 2100 on order, eh? Cool beans! (I hope you didn't order it through BikeSport Michigan, as their rep is taking a colossal beating in the forums world. But given that you live in TN, I doubt you're ordering through a Michigan store.) But if for some wild reason it didn't arrive in time for the March du, then don't worry -- nobody will be laughing at your Trek hybrid. At just about any given race, the range of bikes is staggering, and it just goes with the turf of so many people doing these things for the love of them.

Another thing that people will NOT be laughing at is you in the pool. I know how the mindset works, with everybody there all exposed except for a relatively small piece of usually tight-fitting "clothing", but in my zillions of hours in pools I have never sensed people laughing at others either because of their physiognomy or their technique in the water. I mentioned this sort of thing to two people in my group last year, with the suggestion that it might actually be illuminating for them to just go the pool and sit in the gallery for an hour and look at what all the people in the water are doing. The ranges of styles and approaches in a pool is just about as staggering as the range of bikes at a tri or du, and it is just the nature of the beast that, in effect, it takes all kinds. Certainly the lifeguards (buff or otherwise) know this, as do the members of the swim team.

But if you can find a time in which there are less excellent swimmers in the pool with you, that will probably make you feel more at ease. So if you can, schedule around the swim team's times, or any sessions involving hard-core masters swimmers.

And just focus on one length at a time, the 25 yards to the other end. Start each 25 with your most comfortable stroke. For many people it's breast, so do that for maybe 15 yards and then inconspicuously switch to freestyle for the final 10 yards. Then maybe for the next two lengths just do breast, and then another length of a 15/10 switcheroo. Try not to view yourself "flopping around like a buffoon" (NOT good for your self-esteem! ), and the best way to do that is swim mostly whetever is your most comfortable or "prettiest" stroke. And then for freestyle -- sneak those in when no one expects it, when no one is looking. Ten yards to go --- swoosh!, swoosh!, swoosh!, swoosh!, and you've reached the wall in a matter of seconds! A successful stealth freestyle!!!

Running three miles regularly is very significant; there are several people in the group who are envious of you for being at that point already! You are also very wise to not only rotate your shoes, but to keep them for running only. How any of us walk is very different from how any of us run, so wearing good running shoes for ANYthing else is promoting wear in places that won't be conducive to running. The odd time is kind of okay, but to do it regularly? Nope! That's a big no-no!

Finally, well done on coming up with a log system that works for YOU. A lot of us (not me, however, at least not yet) have their logs posted here, but ultimatley your log has to work for you -- and if online doesn't work for you yet, then don't do it until (if and when) you are fully ready.

Finally-finally, sad to say, I'm cutting you off from the hot buttered rum. No more until about December 23. (It's for your own good..... )

LISALISALISA!!

How did it go today? Curious minds are DYING to know!

Welcome back, Robyn.

Listen to Steve.   He knows what he is talking about.    I am one of the people envious of your regular runs.   I have been doing tri's for a while and am still struggling with the run part of it.   It won't take long for your swimming to improve.   I couldn't swim when I started and was afraid to put my face in the water.   Just take it day by day and before you know it you will be looking forward to your swim sessions.  

Anne

OK, I am going to try the 'surging' on my next swim session because I HAVE to get 200's in before meeting with swim coach next Saturday.   It sounds like something the Triathlon swim coach told us about in one of our classes, for speeding up to pass somebody, get around a buoy, etc.    I don't remember the specifics, but he said we are all only capable of swimming all out for 20-30+seconds (depending on age, fitness, I guess) but that we can continue to do that indefinitely, after letting the body recover after each all out effort.   

I do have a tempo trainer and use it religiously on my running but haven't been using it for swimming.    I will take it on Saturday and get the coach to set it at the right tempo for me.   He does say that my turnover tends to be too slow. 

I agree with you about T1 and trying to get the stroke count down so low it is detrimental to the entire stroke.  

I'll tell you I WAS pretty darned excited about my fast 100's this week.   I am finally seeing some improvement in my times for the different lengths.   For example - last year I could do an easy 50 in 1.08; 100 in 2.28; 200 in 5:36; and 500 to 1500  meters would work out to a 2'46" pace/100 meters.     If I did a fast 50 in 1.03, I could only do a fast 100 in 2.22 - which I think is quite a variance in pace.  

Now I can do 50 in .58 seconds; 100 in 2.05; both those 'fast';  I can do 200 easy in 4.39 so am going to try to do it fast in 4.20 this coming week.   The variance in pacing is reducing a bit, as the distance increases.   I'm thinking that is good. 

My question is:   is my goal to be able to do the 100's in 1.56 and the 200's in 3.52?   etc.   Just basically doubling the time for each or should I be expecting each successive 100 to be slightly slower, and if so, what is the acceptable 'range'? 

I do use Marc Evans' pacing charts for swim, bike and run, to try and keep me 'in line'.   He says that your interval (speed) training should be based on where you are now, not on where you WANT to be - which is what most people do and usually end up seeing injuries because there are trying to train too fast.  

For example, in my swimming, he says I should be able to maintain the same pace for either 50's, 100', 200's and 500's before I attempt to move up to the next 'level'. 

Hope all this makes sense.


P.S.   I did a run today and decided to keep it at 5km instead of 6.   Still 1km run with 250m walk recovery;   Any suggestions for next weeks run 'program'?    Thanks

Hi,

Steve and Ann:
Thanks for your recent discussions about "surging".  I might try that.
I learned the front crawl last year.  I think my form's not bad.  I do/did the TI drills.  I can now swim about 1500 yds (30 laps) without getting tired but if I try to sprint (for a time trial), I'm a wreck after 50 yds (1 lap). 
Denise

  
Hey Denise,

Glad to hear I have some company.      I have yet to actually COMPLETE a TT because I am also a wreck after 50-100 yrd, wimp out and make excuses why it was better to just do an easy swim.        Maybe we'll both have some luck with these surges.  

Anne

Hi,

Robyn;
Congratulations on all you manage to do.
When I was 1st learning to swim last year, I HATED going to the pool.  I was so uncomfortable trying to do a few front crawl strokes and then having to switch to side stroke to get to the other end of the pool - and, of course, lots of great swimmers in the other lanes.  It didn't help that I was about 40 years older than most of the other swimmers.  I made myself go anyway, and it gradually got better - both my swimming and my comfort level at the pool.  Don't give up on the swimming.
Denise

Well, I survived!! Not only that, I think I beat my HM PR by 1 minute, which surprised me since I knocked 19 minutes off my time in my last HM ... still waiting for the official time. Totally wasn't expecting a PR today. It was about 25 degrees at the start and about 36 degrees when I finished. I was dressed perfectly, so it wasn't an issue. It was crazy at the water stations because the spilled water was icing up the street, so had to walk through them. They had checked the course at 5 am and it was clear, only to find out right before we started that a water sprinkler had come on and iced up the road at mile 7, so they were putting gravel down. I actually may have even been able to do a bit better with my time, but was running with another women in my running group who had done her first HM on New Years Day. At times, I slowed up for her when she was struggling but she ended up beating her first time by about 17 minutes, and said she felt much better at the end then she did on New Years Day. So all in all, a very successful day.

I woke up at 3 am this morning and couldn't get back to sleep, so have been dragging much of the day. Feeling much better now after a margarita and mexican food, but about ready to crawl into bed after a nice soak in some bath salts. Full race report tomorrow once I get my official time!

LISA -

Say hey! Congratulations on the PR, especially on a day that was not without its challenges. I went to the website a few hours ago, but the results weren't up then; maybe now?

A post-race meal of margaritas and Mexican, eh? Well, I guess that menu is much wiser post-racre than pre-race!

And well-done on the proper desssing, which must've been a real puzzler for lots of you if you forego running when it's less than 40.

Looking forward to your fuller report. Sleep well!

Great job, look forward to the race report.

ANNE -

I've just returned from the pilgrimage the you BT log, just checking on your run totals for the week before answering your question about the runs for this week.

But first! That sure looks nice there, the crossing-off your swim goal for a 200m pace. Very fine goal-setting and attainment!

You came through the runs from the week just past in great shape it seems**, so for the coming week I think you can go two simple. One is to just build the distances some more using the same r/w tactic, the other is to reduce the "w" component. And, really, I think you can do both and probably not suffer at all, because....

**.....I was impressed with the numbers for heart rate when you intentionally spiked it, brought it back down, and spiked it again for kms 3-5. So, I think that if you are capable of dropping your pace as you did for kms 3 and 5, you can forego the walk parts of runs this week.

Aiming for 15km is a bit beyond the 10% rule.......but only for people who follow 10% on a weekly basis; many do it monthly. The other weekly goal - and I know it's one you want because of the adjustment you made yesterday - is to hit 6km on one of the runs. That one's very doable! So.....15km....with a 6km run in there....represents a decent increase without inordinately risking injury.

Sound reasonable?

ANNE again -

Moving on to swimming now......

(1) I will try to remember to use my Tempo Trainer today so that I can tell you the settins at which I begin to notice a significant change in my pace. I should be able to remember these, but never can. So, each time I use it I have to kind of start over again and hit-and-miss with the pace I set it for. (And I haven't used it in over three months. )
(2) The big lesson I learned from the Tempo Trainer is the importance of speeding up my arm turnover. That may sound obvious, and proably is, but I wonder if for a talented swimmer there are more ways to access speed without increasing arm turnover. But for me, the "burst speed" seems to come only from an increase in stroke rate.
(3) I was very intrigued by what your coach previously told you, that most swimmers can only sprint for 20"-30", and then have to back off and recover some. I'd say that I am really at the lower limit of that, but it sure feels good to have an expert confirm that most ordinary mortals can't keep up that pace forever; I guess I feel that most good swimmers can.
(4) My former coach, Erik, told me that if one wants to go fast in races they have to train fast at times. I have certainly done that over the years with cycling and running, but I resisted it for a long time with swimming. (BUT SEE NEXT POST!) Thinking about that a year+ ago, that's what got me working on the arm turnover and the surging -- with the Tempo Trainer being very useful.
(5) The $64,000 question is in the paragraph that begins with "My question is.....", and I will get to that in a while -- maybe in 15 minutes, maybe later today. But now, on to that NEXT POST, mentioned above in #5.

TIME TRIALS


Anyone have any experience with these? Denise mentioned it yesterday, Anne responded, and in writing to Anne just a while ago I thought about time trials some more. For now, I'll just give a brief description of them, and mention how I have used them in swimming in the past (seeing as how this was the context in which Denise and Anne were discussing it.

The Time Trial (TT) is one of two types of performance testing that are potentially higly useful indicators of race fitness and the efficacy of your training. Quite simply, a Time Trial is a relatively short test that is done at race intensity, with the result measured in elapsed time.

When I began working with Erik Cagnina back in early '03, it didn't take him long to set my first swimming TT -- 1000 meters; go for it! And I did....and I thought I might die in the process. This first one (I'm looking at my '03 log now, which is why logging is good and keeping them around is better!!) was on Feb 16, and took me an underwhelming 21:37 to complete, and even though I suffered, my comments were mostly positive: "Good TT - not in time, but rather feel. Worked at exaggerated pull; felt vey effective." I thought, okay, that's that, but in the next block of workouts he had THREE swim TTs set for me -- oh, nooooooo!!!!

But with the first one under my belt, I kind of knew the drill and what to expect (arrgghhhhhh!), so even though I was dreading doing others, I sucked it up (HTFU) and did 'em. The second one came on March 6, and I was thrilled to get it down to 20:23. The next one was on March 14, and that was 19:55, and on the follow-up to that one, on March 26, I hit 19:16. (I wish I could tell you that that sweet progression continued, but it didn't. Subsequent TT got down to a best of, I think, 18:57, and without poring back through my logs, I'm sure that was the only that was sub-19.)

1000 meters is a LOT for a swim TT, and I wouldn't recommend it for your TT goal distance for most of you. But for some of you, a swim TT might be beneficial, and the goal you want to test yourself at can be whatever pushes your limits a bit, but isn't a bonafide killer. And they don't have to be even a tenth as frequent as the ones Erik set for me so early in our relationship. In fact, after the dust had settled from those first few, they came about once every three weeks for a few months, and then even less frequently after that.

Traditionally, time trials are used closer to race season, which is in keeping with the goal I mentioned above of being valid indicators of race fitness. (And except for Steve A, now in his Build for IMSG, none of us need to have our race fitness in place right now.) But if you just want to set a modest goal for time/speed purposes, a TT can be valuable - be it for swim or bike or run.

Finally, if you are thinking of working TT into your schedule, it is critical to try to keep conditions the same each time. So, for swimming, use the same pool and try to do it at a time when the pool is crowded and you aren't having to swim around slower people or stop at the end of your lane to let a faster swimmer whoosh past you. For a run, choose a straight stretch of road and try to keep weather conditions roughly similar. That sort of thing.

FInally-finally, I'm just tossing this out for your general edification. PLEASE don't feel compelled to start doing these yesterday, and if you NEVER do a TT, that will be fine, too!

ANNE once more -

Urp. the TT post took longer than I thought it would, and I have to head into Ottawa now, so the response to "My question is...." will have to wait until later today. I apologize!!

GROOVERS!!

If a certain Scott ("Masi 68") shows up today or sometime soon, don't be confused or surprised. He wrote me yesterday asking if he could join, and what I didn't know is that there is not a single mentor group that is still open. So, marmadaddy told him to ask around and see if anyone could take him in, and I told him (Scott) that would be fine. I also told him we were big, and that if he preferred small he might want to look around some more, so he might have chosen that route instead. But if he shows up here, there you go!

I felt we could absord him because one of The Originals (shuhshuh - Ken) has never returned, and while I hope he does, at this point I'm just not counting on it. More importantly, maybe, is that two others - hooslisa and ThatGirl - returned to my old group, figuring that two groups was too many for them to keep up with. So, those three losses brought us down 16 (17?), and I feel that keeping under 20 is workable.

It's important to me that I don't let things slip on any of you! There were a few days there where I was perpetually falling behind (kind of like "Snakes 'n' Ladders"), but I think I'm mostly up to date with the more critical responses. (NOTE TO MARK -- I KNOW, I STILL OWE YOU THE BIG ONE ABOUT PERIODIZATION!!!) Slippages will happen, however, and when they do, just keep prodding me to get my act together and answer that question you asked a day or two or three or (heaven forbid) four ago.

As for me, for now, I'm off to the pool. Glub, glub!












Edited by stevebradley 2010-01-11 8:01 AM

Lisa - Congratulations on probable PR
Sounds like it was dangerous with the ice - although, for some reason, the "water sprinkler going on" struck me as funny.
Denise

Lisa, Congrats on what sounds like a great run over the weekend.  Let us know what the official watch-watchers say.  :-)


This week marks Week 15 of my program.  As of Sunday, we'll be half way to Ironman St. George.  I can see the light at the end of the tunnel - I just hope it's not a train!  After this week, I get a recovery week which I'm in desperate need of. 

This week's schedule:
Monday:  1-hr swim / 1 hr run (2x Z4 for 6 minutes inserted at 10min) (done!)
Tue:  1 hr bike @ Z2 / Transition for 30-minute run
Wed:  Just like Monday except 1x Z4 for 10 minutes inserted at 15 minutes on run
Thu:  1:15 bike at Z2 (Insert 4x Z4 for 5min at 15 min w/ 3 min spin recovery)
Friday:  Rest
Saturday:  4 hr bike / transition to 30 minute run
Sunday:  30-minute bike (spin 100+ rpm) / 1:30 run

Lessons learned over the weekend:
1) Don't mess with the schedule - there is a reason not to do back to back runs!  Flip-flopped by Saturday Bike and Sunday Run.  Less than 12 hours after the Friday run, I was on the long run.  Less than 10 minutes after that was done, I was in a bathtub full of ice. 

2)  Ice baths are still way cool.

3)  I'm terrible at estimating turn-around points on long rides.  What should have been a 3.5 hour ride ended up at 4:00 because I bit off more than I could chew.  Oh well - now I know what my 4-hour ride looks like! 

4)  Treadmills:  still boring.  But they are great for intervals - really let you dial in a HR and stick to it. 

5)  Hills - easier the second time around - looking forward to the third!  Still need to work on descents.  I'm still far too timid and am giving up WAY too much time. 

I am thinking of getting started with these but gawd, they hurt so much. Going full out is painful and egodestroying and mentally horrible. I really hear they are a good way of judging your fitness, even in biking and running, if you do the same route, say 4 times a year, to give you a base line fitness. Of course, isn't that what races are for?...., as suppose the difference, at least with tri training is that you don't really have the opportunity to go all out at race pace for a specific discipline like you would in a one sport race.