Dear Gov. D-bag of WI:

Expert

1192

Oak Creek, WI

Subject: RE: Dear Gov. D-bag of WI:

I still believe that creating a business friendly state will be in all of our best interests long term... will generate more tax revenue from additional companies moving into wisconsin, as well as all the individuals employed in our state... i've already heard rumors of a few large companies in IL looking to move to WI due to the big tax hikes in IL... I believe that abbott just bought a big chunk of real estate over the border in WI (for starters)...

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Expert

1002

Subject: RE: Dear Gov. D-bag of WI:

snipped for irrelevancy

Edited by UWMadTri 2011-03-08 9:44 AM

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Iron Donkey

38643

, Wisconsin

Subject: RE: Dear Gov. D-bag of WI:

UWMadTri - 2011-03-08 9:38 AM

Fred Doucette - 2011-03-08 9:31 AM

UWMadTri -

Cruse, I say this with as much respect as I can muster, but you haven't got a clue. Your views on the poor in this country are so completely absurd that my only guess is that you've lived in Beverly Hills your entire life and never descended from said hills.

Actually you said that with literally no respect to him whatsoever. You know nothing about him and your comments are inappropriate.

Why not just say "Cruse I disagree with you" instead of the personal characterizations?

No need for that dude. None.

ETA: You need to review the rules of conduct in this forum. Personal attacks such as these are not allowed.

I really appreciate how much passive-aggressiveness you felt that you were entitled to before (and completely ignored after I fully responded to you), however directly telling someone that they do not have a clue about their completely misguided views on poverty, views that they stand on as fact...that's bad. Would it have been better if I phrased it with red italics or lots of smiley faces?

I think this board would benefit from letting the rules of decorum down for a day so that all of you can get out this horrible passive-aggression.

Okay, already.

This is my post and I'm going to end this right now. Anymore of this between ANYBODY, and I will have this thread pulled.

ENOUGH!

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Iron Donkey

38643

, Wisconsin

Subject: RE: Dear Gov. D-bag of WI:

Fred Doucette - 2011-03-08 9:47 AM

Phil it has been by and large an excellent thread.

I will recuse myself if I am a problem here, sorry.

I do encourage you to keep it going as it has mainly been a civil discussion.

Either way I learned a lot.

Both UWMadTri and yourself were fine until the last few posts.

If you both can present your viewpoints without the accusations or whatever, then I have no problem.

You are both welcome. Let's just continue the civility, por favor.

Sidenote - can you all believe that I actually became slightly reasonable?? *whoops, left myself wide open with that comment*

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Pro

3906

Libertyville, IL

Subject: RE: Dear Gov. D-bag of WI:

UWMadTri - 2011-03-08 9:28 AM

crusevegas - 2011-03-08 8:32 AM
Where does most of the tax revenue in WI come from?

About 38% of tax revenue comes from the top 1% and pretty much all of it comes from the top 50% (~98%)

One of the problems we've created with all of the government social programs in WI and the rest of the country is we have those footing the bill and those with their hands out. Those with their hands out will NEVER want less and as long as they can, will demand more from those paying the bill.

This statement is so wrong on so many levels, I can't even figure out where to begin. Essentially, for your statement to be correct, no one that is in the middle class has ever been poor and those that are poor want nothing more than to suckle on the teat of the government to sustain their lavish lifestyles of "wanting more."

Cruse, I say this with as much respect as I can muster, but you haven't got a clue. Your views on the poor in this country are so completely absurd that my only guess is that you've lived in Beverly Hills your entire life and never descended from said hills.

Google poverty trap.

While all those you mentioned are truly needy I'm not sure why in our society they should be allowed to forcibly take from their neighbor for their own personal needs?

"Personal needs." Please see everything I just said above.

Why did the American taxpayers bailout huge banks, only to see their top executives get enormous bonuses on our bailout money?

Why do large corporations get enormous subsidies and grants that come from taxpayer money?

If you're going to ask why people's "personal needs" for basic food, shelter and health care are more important than their neighbor's purchasing an extra TV, or a new tri-bike, or a new wing to their house, or how about a whole new house, or maybe a stable full of cars...I think we will never ever ever ever see eye-to-eye. The way that I was raised, if your neighbor can't afford to immunize their children, we probably should not be flaunting our new car in front of them.

When we get to the point where anyone in this country has more than half of their revenue/income confenscated by the government they are working more for the collective good than themselves and that is WRONG.

Oh yes, let's use that example. Let's use the example of those "top earners" (we'll say for this purpose >5%) who pay >50% of all income tax in this country. God bless those heroes! Their tax rates must be through the roof! Hmm, turns out it's around 35-40%. That's pretty high, isn't it? Well, yeah, but...and I'm giving this a separate line, bolded, italicized, capitalized and underlined so that you read it,

In the last year that they reported this, 2002, the Office of Tax Analysis shows that THE TOP 5% ONLY REPORTED ONE THIRD OF THEIR INCOME.

Now, that was a while ago and I apologize for being completely unable to find that information, but I did find a Forbes article on this topic:

http://www.forbes.com/2008/10/21/taxes-irs-wealth-biz-beltway-cz_jn_1021beltway.html

The main reason for the income-related cheating disparity: Higher income folks receive more of their income from sources that are easier to hide, including self-employment earnings; income from rents, partnerships and S corporations; and capital gains.

In its 2001 tax gap study, the IRS estimated that individuals underreported business income by 43% overall. Sole proprietors, who report self-employment income on schedule C of their tax returns, underreported their income a stunning 57%.

By contrast, the IRS found, 99% of all wages were reported by individual tax filers. The obvious explanation is that workers have no choice--their employers report their earnings to the IRS and withhold taxes on them.

They estimated the "tax gap" to be about 1/3 of a trillion in 2001.

I don't feel particularly bad for those people when they're effective tax rate is actually around 10-15%

So, does that effectively answer your question?

I am curious as to where jobs come from when all of these wealthy people and corporations are taxed out of existance (as one of your past posts implied). I think it is terrible that there were abuses in some cases regarding bonuses with the bailout but based on some of your responses, would you have had the stomach to see what would have happened to the economy with massive failures and no credit to be had for business anywhere? Just curious how things would have worked (and not endorsing abuses of the system, just saying there were vaild reasons for a bailout in terms of the greater good- and I am generally a free market guy.)

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Subject: RE: Dear Gov. D-bag of WI:

UWMadTri - 2011-03-08 7:28 AM

crusevegas - 2011-03-08 8:32 AM
Where does most of the tax revenue in WI come from?

About 38% of tax revenue comes from the top 1% and pretty much all of it comes from the top 50% (~98%)

One of the problems we've created with all of the government social programs in WI and the rest of the country is we have those footing the bill and those with their hands out. Those with their hands out will NEVER want less and as long as they can, will demand more from those paying the bill.

This statement is so wrong on so many levels, I can't even figure out where to begin. Essentially, for your statement to be correct, no one that is in the middle class has ever been poor and those that are poor want nothing more than to suckle on the teat of the government to sustain their lavish lifestyles of "wanting more."

Cruse, I say this with as much respect as I can muster, but you haven't got a clue. Your views on the poor in this country are so completely absurd that my only guess is that you've lived in Beverly Hills your entire life and never descended from said hills.

Google poverty trap.

While all those you mentioned are truly needy I'm not sure why in our society they should be allowed to forcibly take from their neighbor for their own personal needs?

"Personal needs." Please see everything I just said above.

Why did the American taxpayers bailout huge banks, only to see their top executives get enormous bonuses on our bailout money?

Why do large corporations get enormous subsidies and grants that come from taxpayer money?

If you're going to ask why people's "personal needs" for basic food, shelter and health care are more important than their neighbor's purchasing an extra TV, or a new tri-bike, or a new wing to their house, or how about a whole new house, or maybe a stable full of cars...I think we will never ever ever ever see eye-to-eye. The way that I was raised, if your neighbor can't afford to immunize their children, we probably should not be flaunting our new car in front of them.

When we get to the point where anyone in this country has more than half of their revenue/income confenscated by the government they are working more for the collective good than themselves and that is WRONG.

Oh yes, let's use that example. Let's use the example of those "top earners" (we'll say for this purpose >5%) who pay >50% of all income tax in this country. God bless those heroes! Their tax rates must be through the roof! Hmm, turns out it's around 35-40%. That's pretty high, isn't it? Well, yeah, but...and I'm giving this a separate line, bolded, italicized, capitalized and underlined so that you read it,

In the last year that they reported this, 2002, the Office of Tax Analysis shows that THE TOP 5% ONLY REPORTED ONE THIRD OF THEIR INCOME.

Now, that was a while ago and I apologize for being completely unable to find that information, but I did find a Forbes article on this topic:

http://www.forbes.com/2008/10/21/taxes-irs-wealth-biz-beltway-cz_jn_1021beltway.html

The main reason for the income-related cheating disparity: Higher income folks receive more of their income from sources that are easier to hide, including self-employment earnings; income from rents, partnerships and S corporations; and capital gains.

In its 2001 tax gap study, the IRS estimated that individuals underreported business income by 43% overall. Sole proprietors, who report self-employment income on schedule C of their tax returns, underreported their income a stunning 57%.

By contrast, the IRS found, 99% of all wages were reported by individual tax filers. The obvious explanation is that workers have no choice--their employers report their earnings to the IRS and withhold taxes on them.

They estimated the "tax gap" to be about 1/3 of a trillion in 2001.

I don't feel particularly bad for those people when they're effective tax rate is actually around 10-15%

So, does that effectively answer your question?

RE the bolded part, thanks I haven't had a laugh like that in a while.

The rest respectfully, I don't think is worh my time to respond to due to as you pointed out our very different thoughts on Capitalism & Socialism/Communism.

fwit, thanks to those who commented on this

, I have not taken any offense, as I think I know where Mad is coming from.

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Subject: RE: Dear Gov. D-bag of WI:

jszat - 2011-03-08 8:19 AM

UWMadTri - 2011-03-08 9:28 AM

crusevegas - 2011-03-08 8:32 AM
Where does most of the tax revenue in WI come from?

About 38% of tax revenue comes from the top 1% and pretty much all of it comes from the top 50% (~98%)

One of the problems we've created with all of the government social programs in WI and the rest of the country is we have those footing the bill and those with their hands out. Those with their hands out will NEVER want less and as long as they can, will demand more from those paying the bill.

This statement is so wrong on so many levels, I can't even figure out where to begin. Essentially, for your statement to be correct, no one that is in the middle class has ever been poor and those that are poor want nothing more than to suckle on the teat of the government to sustain their lavish lifestyles of "wanting more."

Cruse, I say this with as much respect as I can muster, but you haven't got a clue. Your views on the poor in this country are so completely absurd that my only guess is that you've lived in Beverly Hills your entire life and never descended from said hills.

Google poverty trap.

While all those you mentioned are truly needy I'm not sure why in our society they should be allowed to forcibly take from their neighbor for their own personal needs?

"Personal needs." Please see everything I just said above.

Why did the American taxpayers bailout huge banks, only to see their top executives get enormous bonuses on our bailout money?

Why do large corporations get enormous subsidies and grants that come from taxpayer money?

If you're going to ask why people's "personal needs" for basic food, shelter and health care are more important than their neighbor's purchasing an extra TV, or a new tri-bike, or a new wing to their house, or how about a whole new house, or maybe a stable full of cars...I think we will never ever ever ever see eye-to-eye. The way that I was raised, if your neighbor can't afford to immunize their children, we probably should not be flaunting our new car in front of them.

When we get to the point where anyone in this country has more than half of their revenue/income confenscated by the government they are working more for the collective good than themselves and that is WRONG.

Oh yes, let's use that example. Let's use the example of those "top earners" (we'll say for this purpose >5%) who pay >50% of all income tax in this country. God bless those heroes! Their tax rates must be through the roof! Hmm, turns out it's around 35-40%. That's pretty high, isn't it? Well, yeah, but...and I'm giving this a separate line, bolded, italicized, capitalized and underlined so that you read it,

In the last year that they reported this, 2002, the Office of Tax Analysis shows that THE TOP 5% ONLY REPORTED ONE THIRD OF THEIR INCOME.

Now, that was a while ago and I apologize for being completely unable to find that information, but I did find a Forbes article on this topic:

http://www.forbes.com/2008/10/21/taxes-irs-wealth-biz-beltway-cz_jn_1021beltway.html

The main reason for the income-related cheating disparity: Higher income folks receive more of their income from sources that are easier to hide, including self-employment earnings; income from rents, partnerships and S corporations; and capital gains.

In its 2001 tax gap study, the IRS estimated that individuals underreported business income by 43% overall. Sole proprietors, who report self-employment income on schedule C of their tax returns, underreported their income a stunning 57%.

By contrast, the IRS found, 99% of all wages were reported by individual tax filers. The obvious explanation is that workers have no choice--their employers report their earnings to the IRS and withhold taxes on them.

They estimated the "tax gap" to be about 1/3 of a trillion in 2001.

I don't feel particularly bad for those people when they're effective tax rate is actually around 10-15%

So, does that effectively answer your question?

I am curious as to where jobs come from when all of these wealthy people and corporations are taxed out of existance (as one of your past posts implied). I think it is terrible that there were abuses in some cases regarding bonuses with the bailout but based on some of your responses, would you have had the stomach to see what would have happened to the economy with massive failures and no credit to be had for business anywhere? Just curious how things would have worked (and not endorsing abuses of the system, just saying there were vaild reasons for a bailout in terms of the greater good- and I am generally a free market guy.)

Well that's the problem with socialism is it works fine until you run out of other peoples money.

otoh, capitalism needs checks and balances as well, however in our nation now the balance it appers has gravitated to far away from cpitalism.

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Pro

3906

Libertyville, IL

Subject: RE: Dear Gov. D-bag of WI:

crusevegas - 2011-03-08 11:20 AM

jszat - 2011-03-08 8:19 AM

UWMadTri - 2011-03-08 9:28 AM

crusevegas - 2011-03-08 8:32 AM
Where does most of the tax revenue in WI come from?

About 38% of tax revenue comes from the top 1% and pretty much all of it comes from the top 50% (~98%)

One of the problems we've created with all of the government social programs in WI and the rest of the country is we have those footing the bill and those with their hands out. Those with their hands out will NEVER want less and as long as they can, will demand more from those paying the bill.

This statement is so wrong on so many levels, I can't even figure out where to begin. Essentially, for your statement to be correct, no one that is in the middle class has ever been poor and those that are poor want nothing more than to suckle on the teat of the government to sustain their lavish lifestyles of "wanting more."

Cruse, I say this with as much respect as I can muster, but you haven't got a clue. Your views on the poor in this country are so completely absurd that my only guess is that you've lived in Beverly Hills your entire life and never descended from said hills.

Google poverty trap.

While all those you mentioned are truly needy I'm not sure why in our society they should be allowed to forcibly take from their neighbor for their own personal needs?

"Personal needs." Please see everything I just said above.

Why did the American taxpayers bailout huge banks, only to see their top executives get enormous bonuses on our bailout money?

Why do large corporations get enormous subsidies and grants that come from taxpayer money?

If you're going to ask why people's "personal needs" for basic food, shelter and health care are more important than their neighbor's purchasing an extra TV, or a new tri-bike, or a new wing to their house, or how about a whole new house, or maybe a stable full of cars...I think we will never ever ever ever see eye-to-eye. The way that I was raised, if your neighbor can't afford to immunize their children, we probably should not be flaunting our new car in front of them.

When we get to the point where anyone in this country has more than half of their revenue/income confenscated by the government they are working more for the collective good than themselves and that is WRONG.

Oh yes, let's use that example. Let's use the example of those "top earners" (we'll say for this purpose >5%) who pay >50% of all income tax in this country. God bless those heroes! Their tax rates must be through the roof! Hmm, turns out it's around 35-40%. That's pretty high, isn't it? Well, yeah, but...and I'm giving this a separate line, bolded, italicized, capitalized and underlined so that you read it,

In the last year that they reported this, 2002, the Office of Tax Analysis shows that THE TOP 5% ONLY REPORTED ONE THIRD OF THEIR INCOME.

Now, that was a while ago and I apologize for being completely unable to find that information, but I did find a Forbes article on this topic:

http://www.forbes.com/2008/10/21/taxes-irs-wealth-biz-beltway-cz_jn_1021beltway.html

The main reason for the income-related cheating disparity: Higher income folks receive more of their income from sources that are easier to hide, including self-employment earnings; income from rents, partnerships and S corporations; and capital gains.

In its 2001 tax gap study, the IRS estimated that individuals underreported business income by 43% overall. Sole proprietors, who report self-employment income on schedule C of their tax returns, underreported their income a stunning 57%.

By contrast, the IRS found, 99% of all wages were reported by individual tax filers. The obvious explanation is that workers have no choice--their employers report their earnings to the IRS and withhold taxes on them.

They estimated the "tax gap" to be about 1/3 of a trillion in 2001.

I don't feel particularly bad for those people when they're effective tax rate is actually around 10-15%

So, does that effectively answer your question?

I am curious as to where jobs come from when all of these wealthy people and corporations are taxed out of existance (as one of your past posts implied). I think it is terrible that there were abuses in some cases regarding bonuses with the bailout but based on some of your responses, would you have had the stomach to see what would have happened to the economy with massive failures and no credit to be had for business anywhere? Just curious how things would have worked (and not endorsing abuses of the system, just saying there were vaild reasons for a bailout in terms of the greater good- and I am generally a free market guy.)

Well that's the problem with socialism is it works fine until you run out of other peoples money.

otoh, capitalism needs checks and balances as well, however in our nation now the balance it appers has gravitated to far away from cpitalism.

absolutely there needs to be government oversight on some facets of capitalism. i think this falls more into where there could be harm to the general public vs telling which products to pursue i.e. the government ideals that everybody should be a homeowner just because didnt really work out too well did they?

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Elite

4564

Boise

Subject: RE: Dear Gov. D-bag of WI:

1stTimeTri - 2011-03-08 9:18 AM

Fred Doucette - 2011-03-08 9:47 AM

Phil it has been by and large an excellent thread.

I will recuse myself if I am a problem here, sorry.

I do encourage you to keep it going as it has mainly been a civil discussion.

Either way I learned a lot.

Both UWMadTri and yourself were fine until the last few posts.

If you both can present your viewpoints without the accusations or whatever, then I have no problem.

You are both welcome. Let's just continue the civility, por favor.

Sidenote - can you all believe that I actually became slightly reasonable?? *whoops, left myself wide open with that comment*

I can't believe you have over 31000 posts.

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Iron Donkey

38643

, Wisconsin

Subject: RE: Dear Gov. D-bag of WI:

Fred Doucette - 2011-03-08 12:32 PM

1stTimeTri - 2011-03-08 11:18 AM

Fred Doucette - 2011-03-08 9:47 AM

Phil it has been by and large an excellent thread.

I will recuse myself if I am a problem here, sorry.

I do encourage you to keep it going as it has mainly been a civil discussion.

Either way I learned a lot.

Both UWMadTri and yourself were fine until the last few posts.

If you both can present your viewpoints without the accusations or whatever, then I have no problem.

You are both welcome. Let's just continue the civility, por favor.

Sidenote - can you all believe that I actually became slightly reasonable?? *whoops, left myself wide open with that comment*

Thanks Phil. Nope done with this. Good luck (you are a moderator right?) with it though as it's a pretty interesting subject.

No, not a moderator, just moderating my own thread.
Don't be a stranger in these here parts.

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Iron Donkey

38643

, Wisconsin

Subject: RE: Dear Gov. D-bag of WI:

JoshR - 2011-03-08 1:11 PM

1stTimeTri - 2011-03-08 9:18 AM

Fred Doucette - 2011-03-08 9:47 AM

Phil it has been by and large an excellent thread.

I will recuse myself if I am a problem here, sorry.

I do encourage you to keep it going as it has mainly been a civil discussion.

Either way I learned a lot.

Both UWMadTri and yourself were fine until the last few posts.

If you both can present your viewpoints without the accusations or whatever, then I have no problem.

You are both welcome. Let's just continue the civility, por favor.

Sidenote - can you all believe that I actually became slightly reasonable?? *whoops, left myself wide open with that comment*

I can't believe you have over 31000 posts.

Lotsa work to get there. Now, I need to actually work on my triathlon training.

My Race Log

Iron Donkey

38643

, Wisconsin

Subject: RE: Dear Gov. D-bag of WI:

Any real, unopinionated financial experts out there care to elaborate this?

http://kristenemery.com/2011/02/23/does-governor-scott-walker-have-a-smoking-gun-buried-in-the-budget-bill/

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Elite

4564

Boise

Subject: RE: Dear Gov. D-bag of WI:

1stTimeTri - 2011-03-08 1:25 PM

Any real, unopinionated financial experts out there care to elaborate this?

http://kristenemery.com/2011/02/23/does-governor-scott-walker-have-a-smoking-gun-buried-in-the-budget-bill/

I think that's a tough call. There are other reports out that indicate the plans are barely 50% funded(http://www.aei.org/docLib/Biggs-WP-164.pdf). There is so much juggling that goes into the these numbers that I think it's hard to accurately determine these things. My biased side would tend to disagree and say that these plans have been underfunded for awhile and it is unlikely that this one is any different.

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Pro

4675

Wisconsin near the Twin Cities metro

Subject: RE: Dear Gov. D-bag of WI:

1stTimeTri - 2011-03-08 9:37 AM

Birkierunner - 2011-03-08 9:29 AM

1stTimeTri - 2011-03-08 8:07 AM

From an educator:

" Incidentally, if you figure out the average uw professor pay and divide it out down to how much the state spends on each student per hour, I wonder how that would compare to how much tax payers spend on inmates? Hmmm.... I know that public school teachers make about $2.70 on average per student per hour in our lovely state. I am not an economist, but that is a HUGE bargain for taxpayers. I imagine that holds true for higher ed. too. I don't know about any of you but I pay my babysitters more than that an hour and we are professionals that do more than read stories and play games with our students.

Does anyone know when they plan to go after the $1 billion in unpaid taxes in WI? Just curious."

This logic is so flawed its not even approaching funny. Dividing pay by the number of students is not what we are paying teachers by the hour. We are paying them in the amount of their total gross paycheck divided by the number of hours they are paid to work. I fully admit there are likely tons of hours of work they do at home (grading paper, etc?) that they don't get paid for...comes with the territory in MANY other professions as well...so let's not get off on that tangent. But to divide their pay by the number of students and try to argue that as their actual hourly wage is disingenous at best.

Don't shoot the messenger, dude.

who's shooting the messenger?? I said "this" logic...not "your" logic...chill out

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Iron Donkey

38643

, Wisconsin

Subject: RE: Dear Gov. D-bag of WI:

Birkierunner - 2011-03-09 7:09 AM

1stTimeTri - 2011-03-08 9:37 AM

Birkierunner - 2011-03-08 9:29 AM

1stTimeTri - 2011-03-08 8:07 AM

From an educator:

" Incidentally, if you figure out the average uw professor pay and divide it out down to how much the state spends on each student per hour, I wonder how that would compare to how much tax payers spend on inmates? Hmmm.... I know that public school teachers make about $2.70 on average per student per hour in our lovely state. I am not an economist, but that is a HUGE bargain for taxpayers. I imagine that holds true for higher ed. too. I don't know about any of you but I pay my babysitters more than that an hour and we are professionals that do more than read stories and play games with our students.

Does anyone know when they plan to go after the $1 billion in unpaid taxes in WI? Just curious."

This logic is so flawed its not even approaching funny. Dividing pay by the number of students is not what we are paying teachers by the hour. We are paying them in the amount of their total gross paycheck divided by the number of hours they are paid to work. I fully admit there are likely tons of hours of work they do at home (grading paper, etc?) that they don't get paid for...comes with the territory in MANY other professions as well...so let's not get off on that tangent. But to divide their pay by the number of students and try to argue that as their actual hourly wage is disingenous at best.

Don't shoot the messenger, dude.

who's shooting the messenger?? I said "this" logic...not "your" logic...chill out

I thought that you would understand it to be light-hearted. I should have added the winky-smiley. I wasn't upset. We're good, Jim.

My Race Log

Subject: RE: Dear Gov. D-bag of WI:

Regarding the Pension issue Phil the private sector has been moving away from them due to the uncertain future liability they create.

With a defined benefit paln (pension) you are making a promis to pay a certain amoun beginning at a specific time/age and continuing it for an uncertain period of time. The funding is based on the average lifespan, which has historically been increasing. When the investments that those funds are invested/stored in are doing well they may appear from an acutarial basis to properly funded, when there is a big dip in say the stock market they may be deemed to be underfunded. If the benefit is also adjusted automatically for inflation well that creates another variable that has to be delt with.

In a defined contribution plan ie a 401k the liability the company/employer/government or whoever is funding the retirement plan has 1. more control over future liability and expenses 2. I believe less government red tape to comply with.

This I beleive also highlights some of the problems with our Social Security system as well.

Here is what I find to be an interesting thoguht. If we have government provided retirement (Social Security) and governmetn provided health care, doesn't the government have a financial conflict of interest in providing health care that would extend our lives and require more payments out of SS?

Edited by crusevegas 2011-03-09 11:20 AM

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Member

169

Subject: RE: Dear Gov. D-bag of WI:

jszat - 2011-03-08 10:19 AM

I am curious as to where jobs come from when all of these wealthy people and corporations are taxed out of existance

Is there any data to support this idea of corporations / companies being taxed out of existence? It seems now that what happens is corporations ship things over seas to avoid taxes, but that is a whole other issue. I would think lack of demand is going to put a corporation out of business before taxes. Perhaps there are small businesses that go out of business because taxes are too high, just wondering if it's documented.

Subject: RE: Dear Gov. D-bag of WI:

burhed - 2011-03-09 12:35 PM

jszat - 2011-03-08 10:19 AM

I am curious as to where jobs come from when all of these wealthy people and corporations are taxed out of existance

Is there any data to support this idea of corporations / companies being taxed out of existence? It seems now that what happens is corporations ship things over seas to avoid taxes, but that is a whole other issue. I would think lack of demand is going to put a corporation out of business before taxes. Perhaps there are small businesses that go out of business because taxes are too high, just wondering if it's documented.

Interesting, it looks like you answered your own question?

My Race Log

Pro

3906

Libertyville, IL

Subject: RE: Dear Gov. D-bag of WI:

burhed - 2011-03-09 2:35 PM

jszat - 2011-03-08 10:19 AM

I am curious as to where jobs come from when all of these wealthy people and corporations are taxed out of existance

Is there any data to support this idea of corporations / companies being taxed out of existence? It seems now that what happens is corporations ship things over seas to avoid taxes, but that is a whole other issue. I would think lack of demand is going to put a corporation out of business before taxes. Perhaps there are small businesses that go out of business because taxes are too high, just wondering if it's documented.

i am speaking primarily to UW's notion that raising business taxes is somehow a better way to cull out the weak vs allowing market forces to do it. Seeing as his idea is a theoretical, there is no data, yet if I had time to search the internet, could pull up many cases of businesses leaving states to others due to a variety of factors that improve their costs of production and in Wisconsin, taxes is one of them. So typically, the taxation out of existence occurs only in that the company no longer holds operations in that state. My disconnect I think is trying to understand why profit motive is necessarily a bad thing as it generally leads to the most efficient use of resources. Typically, the government is under no such pressure to survive where it needs to find the best way so I dont get how raising taxes is a best course of action until inefficiencies are purged from the system.

Edited by jszat 2011-03-09 3:08 PM

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Subject: RE: Dear Gov. D-bag of WI:

crusevegas - 2011-03-09 2:59 PM

burhed - 2011-03-09 12:35 PM

jszat - 2011-03-08 10:19 AM

I am curious as to where jobs come from when all of these wealthy people and corporations are taxed out of existance

Is there any data to support this idea of corporations / companies being taxed out of existence? It seems now that what happens is corporations ship things over seas to avoid taxes, but that is a whole other issue. I would think lack of demand is going to put a corporation out of business before taxes. Perhaps there are small businesses that go out of business because taxes are too high, just wondering if it's documented.

Interesting, it looks like you answered your own question?

Yes, but are they doing it to avoid taxes to stay in business or just to boost the bottom line? The reason I say it is a whole other subject is because it is very complex as to why they move over seas. In some cases I think it's because that is where an emerging market is. In other cases it's simply because they want to avoid taxes; but where will that leave the US market when we are missing out on a tax base simply so XYZ Corp can have higher profits?

Subject: RE: Dear Gov. D-bag of WI:

burhed - 2011-03-09 1:19 PM

crusevegas - 2011-03-09 2:59 PM

burhed - 2011-03-09 12:35 PM

jszat - 2011-03-08 10:19 AM

I am curious as to where jobs come from when all of these wealthy people and corporations are taxed out of existance

Is there any data to support this idea of corporations / companies being taxed out of existence? It seems now that what happens is corporations ship things over seas to avoid taxes, but that is a whole other issue. I would think lack of demand is going to put a corporation out of business before taxes. Perhaps there are small businesses that go out of business because taxes are too high, just wondering if it's documented.

Interesting, it looks like you answered your own question?

Yes, but are they doing it to avoid taxes to stay in business or just to boost the bottom line? The reason I say it is a whole other subject is because it is very complex as to why they move over seas. In some cases I think it's because that is where an emerging market is. In other cases it's simply because they want to avoid taxes; but where will that leave the US market when we are missing out on a tax base simply so XYZ Corp can have higher profits?

Why do business entities exist to pay tax or to generate profit?

Where will that leave the US market when we raise taxes higher and higer and more companies flee the US market? I hope that is a rhetorical question.

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Subject: RE: Dear Gov. D-bag of WI:

crusevegas - 2011-03-09 5:02 PM

burhed - 2011-03-09 1:19 PM

crusevegas - 2011-03-09 2:59 PM

burhed - 2011-03-09 12:35 PM

jszat - 2011-03-08 10:19 AM

I am curious as to where jobs come from when all of these wealthy people and corporations are taxed out of existance

Is there any data to support this idea of corporations / companies being taxed out of existence? It seems now that what happens is corporations ship things over seas to avoid taxes, but that is a whole other issue. I would think lack of demand is going to put a corporation out of business before taxes. Perhaps there are small businesses that go out of business because taxes are too high, just wondering if it's documented.

Interesting, it looks like you answered your own question?

Yes, but are they doing it to avoid taxes to stay in business or just to boost the bottom line? The reason I say it is a whole other subject is because it is very complex as to why they move over seas. In some cases I think it's because that is where an emerging market is. In other cases it's simply because they want to avoid taxes; but where will that leave the US market when we are missing out on a tax base simply so XYZ Corp can have higher profits?
Why do business entities exist to pay tax or to generate profit?

Where will that leave the US market when we raise taxes higher and higer and more companies flee the US market? I hope that is a rhetorical question.

Higher taxes alone don't drive companies out of business. Higher taxes combined with decreased consumer demand during a recession, smaller markups over cost during the same recession, combined with increasing costs for fuel, insurance, etc, all contribute to companies' failure. It simply all adds up until the business can no longer be viable.

As to why businesses exist, it's not to generate profit. In the big picture of society, they exist to provide a product or service. Profit is a by-product without which they cannot continue to provide those products or services.

Edited by TriMyBest 2011-03-09 4:35 PM

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Dear Gov. D-bag of WI: (Page 32)

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