Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN) (Page 33)

2015-09-16 10:58 PM

in reply to: phifatech

Elite

5316

Alturas, California

Subject: RE: Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN)

There is not a lot of time between now and Thanksgiving to get faster on the run. You have like a 1 week recovery from the HIM and then a basic week after that, and we are in October. So you have 2-3 build cycles at that point. The first thing is to get your legs under you and weekly miles up around 25 in probably 4 runs a week. One will be your long run, one your short run and 2 medium runs. If I wanted to pick up speed I would start each run at a 1/2 mile easy jog. Then do 1:00 strides starting from stop and gradually increasing your speed with each step up to 5k pace, hold it, then slow to stop after 1 minute. You might even go faster than 5k pace. Then walk 2:00 and repeat 5x. Then jog 1 mile easy. So that is every run day. Then one day is 800 yard repeats, half mile at just slower than 5k pace then a quarter mile walk or jog recovery, repeat starting at 3 the first week, then 4, etc, up to around 8 of those. Another run is a tempo run start at a comfortable pace then each 10th of a mile or quarter mile run the next one 15 seconds per mile faster pace up to 5k pace and then back down to comfortable jog pace for the last mile. One run is just pick a pace mid zone 3. For your long run you are doing 1 mile repeats. So run 1 mile at marathon pace to 30 seconds faster than marathon pace, walk or jog 1/4 mile and repeat, starting with 2 or 3 and then adding 1 more per week. You can substitute a Hill interval week for a 800 interval week and alternate them if you want.

Any questions?

RookeyDavid

2015-09-17 2:11 PM

in reply to: phifatech

Subject: RE: Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN)

Dennis - great job on the HIM! Which one was it that you did again? I just did my first tri (Oly) and am signing up to the Lousiville 70.3 2016 as well as the Boulder 70.3 2016 soon. Any advice going into it so quickly?

Also, thanks for the non-smoking support :-) I have about 2-3 small cravings per day which are pretty intense but last about 2 minutes a time. Once I'm through those it's as if I never smoked. I've done this a couple times before but life stresses pushed me back into it. Never again though! (I'm pretty sure I said this before, but this time I mean it haha).

Talking about how it's affected my training - it's ridiculous. I don't know the science behind it - perhaps allowing more oxygen to my muscles via the blood stream or something, as I know smoking blocks that. Anyway, I digress - my training is MUCH better. Before I started smoking again I was running 7:30/mile consistently over about 10k. With smoking, I would regularly find myself above 10:00/mile. Swimming was terrible (especially as I was just learning, too) as I had zero endurance. I could only make it 100yds in one go, at a stretch.

I've managed to swim almost a mile a day this week and my run is down to 8:00-8:30/mile over 10k again. I stopped smoking on Saturday! If only those kinds of benefits would keep happening :-) I know I'll plateau again.

Dennis B

2015-09-17 3:50 PM

in reply to: RookeyDavid

184

SOUTH WINDSOR, Connecticut

Subject: RE: Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN)

caution... long post..

Questions, yes.. I have never followed any specific running regimen (nor swimming / biking for that matter).. so yes, a few questions, an overview of what I understood.. then a example plan for first build week.. I put in target pace based on my best 5k effort and subtracted a few seconds.

*************************

Questions:

This week is recovery, I did walk last night for 2+ miles. Will do a few other things bike / swim easy. - what would next weeks "basic" week look like?

What decides my "pace"? - what I ran for my last sprint triathlons? Stand-alone runs? My best 5k effort? Best 5k effort was 10:54 last October.. Lol..

Do I start at 25 miles per week? Work up to it? Keep increasing greater than 25? I would have no issue doing the 3,6,6,10 to start.

Every run, including the long run includes the strides?

Do I increase the 5k pace every so often? What determines how / when to increase speed or distance?

For the medium runs, do I do the 800's / tempos for the entire distance? If not.. What pace should I use to run out the remainder?

If I do 2 build weeks / 1 recovery week - how do I change in the recovery week? Distances, effort (pace), both?

Thursday tempo - see question.

Long run.. stand alone I should be able to easily do the 13:00 / m - Haven't done a marathon yet, nothing to base on.?

***************************

What I understood from your post

Cycles = 2 build, 1 recovery (3 week cycle for over 40 years of age)

Miles = 25+

Long, med, med, short

10, 6, 6, 3

Each run

Start - 1/2 mile easy jog

Strides 1:00 from stop - gradually increase pace up to 5k pace - hold - slow to stop after 1:00

Walk 2:00

Repeat 5x

Jog easy 1 mile (is this each repeat or only after the 5x?)

Medium Runs

800 yd repeats - (half mile) just slower than 5k pace

1/4 mile jog recovery

Start at 3x first week, 4x second week, etc. up to 8x

Tempo run

Start at comfortable pace

Each 10th of a mile increase speed by :15 seconds per mile faster - up to 5k pace

Back down to comfortable jog pace for last mile

Hill repeats (in lieu of 800 yd repeats)

What does this look like?

Long Run

1 mile repeats - 1 mile at marathon pace to plus 30 seconds faster

Jog 1/4 mile

Repeat 3x first week, 4x second week, etc.

****************************

Example week 1

Monday

Short run

Start - 1/2 mile easy jog (12:00/m)

Strides 1:00 from stop - gradually increase pace up to 5k pace - hold - slow to stop after 1:00 (10:30/m)

Walk 2:00 (could / should this be a jog?)

Repeat 5x

Jog easy 1 mile - complete minimum of 3 miles, work up to 4 - 5 (sub 12:00/m)

Tuesday

Medium run

Strides - see above

800 yd repeats - (half mile) just slower than 5k pace (11:00/m)

1/4 mile jog recovery (12:00/m)

Start at 3x first week, 4x second week, etc. up to 8x

Finish off for 6 miles @ 12:00/m

Thursday

Medium run - Tempo run

Strides - see above

Start at comfortable pace (12:00 /m)

Each 10th of a mile increase speed by :15 seconds per mile faster - up to 5k pace (10:30/m)

(this would only be 6/10 of a mile - keep going faster or repeat the cycle?)

Back down to comfortable jog pace for last mile

Finish off for 6 miles @ 12:00/m

Saturday

Long Run

Strides - see above

1 mile repeats - 1 mile at marathon pace to plus 30 seconds faster (13:00/m) - best half pace.

Jog 1/4 mile

Repeat 3x first week, 4x second week, etc.

Tri-solar

2015-09-17 4:39 PM

in reply to: Dennis B

Member

262

Blairstown, NJ

Subject: RE: Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN)

Dennis - Congrats on the HIM!
Phil - That was a great race!
Pam - The idea of yelling " on your left" or some such seemed to makes sense. I've had a couple bikes lately where walkers were on the right and as I approached one would move to the left. The first time I did not say anything and had to make a quick move. Fortunately no one got hurt. The last couple times I started getting a bit more vocal and it seemed to work out better.
Carol - Way to keep at it. Drop a photo....
Steve - Nature is a wonderful thing. Sounds like you have found a very nice place. Stay safe!
Dennis - Looks like you got the basic idea of what Steve was saying. Pace obviously varies and it really depends on where you are at with your fitness. Definitely pick a 5K more recent than last year as your fitness and training have changed a lot, especially coming off a HIM. I remember not too interesting in doing too much after my 1st HIM last year so Kudo's. On the warm up, you don't want to run 1 mile after each rep, just after the set. Good luck.

2015-09-17 5:13 PM

in reply to: Tri-solar

Elite

5316

Alturas, California

Subject: RE: Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN)

Ok so you can take a recent 5k run pace. If you don't have one, once you have recovered do a run TT, warmup 1 mile run 10 minutes at 5k pace, then start heartrate monitor /lap timer and get average over the last 20 minutes. That gets you both your 5k pace and your LT Heart rate. Look on the web for mcmillans run calculator which will translate that 5k pace into all other distance paces for workouts.

Yes strides as part of every run workout, consider it part of your warmup, gets the heart rate up a bit and muscles warm, gets your turnover rate at a faster pace more comfortable.

So half mile warmup, 5x strides for every run, then a half mile to 1 mile steady jog/ z2 run to get settled in before starting the rest of your workout.

So for 800 repeats, you do your warmup, shake it out for a half mile then do your repeats then finish with another 1 mile at a comfortable pace. You can walk the 1/4 between 800s (if wakling just go 2:00 between repeats).

Hill repeats are 800 repeats up hill at same effort.

So 800s and hill repeats are at LT, from your TT, which for me is 175.

Mcmillan gives you your marathon pace, which you then do for your mile repeats in the marathon to marathon + 30 second pace range. This turns out to be around high z3 low z4. End your long run with 1 mile easy z2 effort.

Whatever you are running now build up to 25 miles per week so like 3 6 6 10 ish. You can push this to 3 77 11 ish. But, because you are running a shorter race 5k and you are doing a lot of intensity, you need more recovery during your week so 25-30 miles for your training for the 5k . If you were training for a half or full you would build to 40 to 50 miles per week.

Recover week = same workout as regular week, but 60% of distance. So if your long run is 10 miles, recover week run is 6.

Did I hit everything?
Steve

Dennis B

2015-09-17 7:52 PM

in reply to: Baowolf

184

SOUTH WINDSOR, Connecticut

Subject: RE: Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN)

Originally posted by Baowolf Did I hit everything? Steve

Perfect, thanks...

FWIW - race is 5 mile, not 5 k.. shouldn't make much of a difference..? Ready to beat last year's time!!

Best,

-Dennis

2015-09-17 10:25 PM

in reply to: 0

Elite

5316

Alturas, California

Subject: RE: Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN)

Yup at 5 miles for the race your long run is more than twice the race distance and with 8x 800s that is 4 miles at race pace and with 6x 1 mile repeats you are getting in some quality work in and around the distance you will be running 4-6 miles at a heavier workload broken by the recovery times. If you were doing a HIM I would want your long up more in the 15-16 mile range. Your 5 mile pace will be a little slower than your 5k pace, but not by much, so if you do your 800 intervals at 5k pace then dial it back like 3 to 4 heart beats per minute you will be in the zone for the 5 mile.

So for those hill repeats you want about a 2-3% grade that is .25 to .5 miles long, you run up fast, jog down and repeat.

Your 5 mile race strategy will be to actually run the first mile slower than the 2nd mile (like 10 seconds slower), the 3rd mile faster than the 2nd mile (about 5 seconds faster) and then you will increase effort, probably hold the same speed for the last 2 miles.

Edited by Baowolf 2015-09-17 10:26 PM

2015-09-19 9:13 AM

in reply to: Baowolf

107	Subject: RE: Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN) Howdy all! Is it too late to join this group??? I'm about to start training again for next years 70.3. Thanks!

2015-09-19 5:33 PM

in reply to: 0

Elite

5316

Alturas, California

Subject: RE: Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN)

Common in, the water is fine. What is your experience in training for triathlons etc., and when is your race? What is your current workout routine look like? Are you looking to just finish or are you one of our speedsters with a history of some competition in one or more of the disciplines?

75 mile bike ride today and another flat tire 8(.. No longer liking the Michelin race pro 3s,

Edited by Baowolf 2015-09-19 5:35 PM

2015-09-19 10:14 PM

in reply to: Baowolf

107

Subject: RE: Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN)

Hi Baowolf, I've done a sprint, 2 Olympic distances and 2 70.3s. I have had to run/walk the run leg in each of these races. I've been biking for years now. (road bike). I'm 272lbs so that isn't helping. I'm a slow swimmer so I got a swimming coach and improved a little. My goal race was the Augusta 70.3 race and did that in 2014. That was my last Tri. I planned on taking a little break after the race. Well the break has ended up being a year. I'm ready to crank it back up now. I'm losing weight so that should help. My BIG problem is recurrent shin splints. I'm hoping the weight loss will fix that. My goal is to not just finish the race, I want to finish high in my age group. My ultimate goal is full IM races.

2015-09-19 10:35 PM

in reply to: respro

107

Subject: RE: Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN)

My current training is biking with a group a couple of times a week. So I'm not currently training I'm sorry to say. I have a year to get ready for the next Augusta 70.3. I would like to do a couple of Olympics as training for the 70.3. Planning on starting at the pool again and ramping up my miles on the bike. I want to lose more weight before I start running again. I recently (a month ago) stopped eating meat and eggs. Ramped up the vegetable and fruit consumption and the weight is coming off and my speed on the bike is coming up. I have plenty of time to train. No wife or kids and 7 days off every 2 weeks.
Tyler

2015-09-20 2:30 PM

in reply to: respro

Elite

5316

Alturas, California

Subject: RE: Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN)

The weight will put more pressure on your shins. Shin splints usually come from doing too much too soon and not having the right shoes. Make sure you go to a running store that has a treadmill alaysis of your running form to get you the right level of stability. Also running shoes are only good for 250 to 350 miles, so old shoes will also make you prone to shin splints. I am a huge advocate of walking. You can get a lot of run fitness from walking. The group will tell you that when I have a pulled calf muscle or whatever I will still walk 4-5 times a week 4 to 8 miles per walk at a brisk pace. It is low impact, so your weight and shins will be less effected. Also you can do elyptical instead of walking or running, similar benefit. I am concerned about your protein with the weight loss, stay balanced in your diet, decrease the amount and increase the exercise hours. The main culprit is sugar not protein in gaining weight. Just cutting out candy, chips, sugary drinks and sugary deserts is enough to tip the scales towards weight loss if you are exercising regularly. Try to not lose more than 1 pound per week.

I slept in this morning so my 10 mile run was a little warmer than I would have liked, oh well, got it done. So I ordered a bunch of stuff to protect my tubes from evil road trash, I will let you know how they work once I get them. I also ordered a fancy headlamp as I really can't run during lunch these days, at least not now.

How was everyone's weekend adventures.

Also one can do a 5k run at home once a month to test to see if you have gained any speed and then use that to set your HR and practice paces for the following month.

2015-09-20 4:45 PM

in reply to: Baowolf

107

Subject: RE: Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN)

I'm going to take that walking info very seriously. I have a mile loop around my neighborhood that has elevation. Low traffic too. The walking will help drop the weight too. I'll be honest about the shin splints. I am scared to death to start running again because the pain had sidelined me twice. I have read up on a low volume run/walk base building program to get the body ready for steady running. I think a lot of brisk walking miles over the next few weeks will fit the bill. Thanks for that advice. I bought my running shoes from a local "fleet Feet " running store. They watched me walk a few steps to check my gait I think. No treadmill analysis there. I hear you about the protein, I'm watching my nutrition intake closely. Getting lab work done in a few months to make sure every thing is in order. Number one goal is eat healthy, number two goal is 180lbs (87lbs away), third goal is podium finishes. I will be linking up my garmins to this site once I figure it out so everyone can see and critique. My last bike time for 56 miles was close to 3:15, my avg run pace is just below a 11min mile. That's no walking, only running pace. I said "podium finishes" so I know I'm going to have to seriously cut the bike and run times. I mean drastically.

Thanks for the info, really.
Side note, once I switched to Continental grand Prix 4000s my flats have stopped. So far that is

Tyler

MuscleMomma

2015-09-20 10:37 PM

in reply to: respro

Extreme Veteran

1106

, Connecticut

Subject: RE: Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN)

Do you all b/r/s all year? Was thinking of just doing cardio and weights for a few months. Mistakes of past years was starting training where I had to start with 1min walk/2min run etc. Really ate into my training. So should learn and start r/b/s months before training plan begins, or maybe never stop?

Welcome Respro!

Steve - don't know if you teacher or do more administrative work, but I just know that you must be great at your job. It sucks that not having enough workers is the new norm for a lot of workplaces.

David - congrats on doing an Oly! Please stick to the non-smoking. It will be so helpful in training. I smoked a long time, at one point smoked two packs a day for about 10 years. Slowly worked it down which is not helpful. Some people can just have a few cigs but that's not you. I' got down to a few on days I taught - I'd buy them off my students (I teach at the college level). Last one was when I found out I was pregnant. Then I was nursing, then pregnant again then nursing - it worked for me, but I know I can never have another one or I could go back.

Pam - yea for freedom from parental responsibilities for son's athletics! I think you ultras are so intriguing, nice of you to support your friends. With having only 5 lbs to lose the low carb might not be for you, though if it cleared your rash that's interesting. With these diets you have to commit to not going back to how you used to eat or the weight comes back on. I find carbs set me off for hunger so I'm staying lower carb, beans and fruit, no bread, rice, pasta etc. Whole 30 excludes beans doesn't it? What are you adding back in?

Phil - hot stuff on your race! Great times. I've got to go back and really study the advice you and others gave me for swimming.

Mitzi

2015-09-20 11:09 PM

in reply to: MuscleMomma

Elite

5316

Alturas, California

Subject: RE: Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN)

Oh and if the shin splints come back. Get a marathon stick and roll those shins just next to the thigh bone an ice them after every run. If they kick up as you start to run, drop back to walking for a few weeks and then walk/jog back up again. Triathlon is a balance, so build slowly and stay with it.

I usually try to maintain basic fitness year round so I can build back up without having to start from nothing. Running 20 miles a week and biking 80 miles a week allows me to build into a HIM or an IM fairly quickly (6 months is quick right?)

RookeyDavid

2015-09-21 2:43 PM

in reply to: MuscleMomma

Subject: RE: Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN)

Completely agreed Mitzi, and don't worry... the habit is kicked. Week two and no smoke. Although it's been a tough first week, I feel great now!

Also, I found the best pool that's less than 5 minutes from my house :-) I'm really starting to enjoy swimming on an obsessive level. It's a great workout but I realize that as I'm getting better at it, I'm able to focus more on form and endurance. Managing almost 1.5 miles daily at the moment, so given where I've come from I'm extremely happy with that. Pyramid training (2-4-6-8-10-12-10-8--6-4-2)seems to do it for me endurance-wise, then with a smaller focus on strength-specific drills.

David

2015-09-22 6:31 PM

in reply to: #5075206

107	Subject: RE: Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN) 9-21 21.2 mile bike ride. 1:23:13. 1062 feet of elevation. Man, 10% grades turn my legs to jello. 9-22 5.5 mile walk. Got on the giddy up and did it in 1:20:40 about 300 feet of elevation.

Dennis B

2015-09-22 7:42 PM

in reply to: respro

184

SOUTH WINDSOR, Connecticut

Subject: RE: Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN)

Hello all..

Took a week off (walking only) and getting back on it. Monday did strides 4 sets, 4+ miles. https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/906091782Today was strides / 800yd repeats for 6+ miles.https://connect.garmin.com/modern/activity/907014340 Thursday will be strides / tempo. Saturday long run (hopefully) will plan out time as we are heading back to Loudon for Nascar again.

My run workouts feel different as I am pushing myself much more. I now see I was just getting mileage in, which is OK - building a base, now it's time to focus on speed / quality.

While training for the HIM, I did not keep on my weight loss goals. I used the extra exercise as an excuse to eat a bunch of crap.. Now, I need to focus on the weight loss first (I hit 199) and second on the training / performance. The first bunch of weight will come off quickly - then it will be time to focus. Heading to sub 170! I am only 5' 8" so training / racing at 185 has been fun. I know if I lose the rest it will help my times overall.. This will be my core focus..

*********************************************************************

Respro (Tyler) - welcome - great goals.. Nice to have you.

David - You are past physical addiction, now it's all mental. :S Trust me.. Ride the clouds.. there will come a time when your body (lungs) will start to get rid of the junk. Be ready.. For me it was tough, coughing up all kinds of crap. Makes you want to go back to smoking.. Triathlon will help to clear it up quickly. Stay strong. Cool on the swimming.

Steve - awesome advice as always.. FWIW - my road bike has gator skins. No flats past 2 years. Not sure what the tri bike has, whatever came on it. Only ~ 600 miles so far (knock on wood) and no flats either. I have been reading about latext tubes, tires, etc. Will be interested in what you learn while trying to avoid the flats.

Mitzi - last year I kind of stalled around the holidays, then started back (mid January) training for a 1/2 marathon - tradmill mostly. Thinking this year I will stay a lot more active throughout the winter. I am pretty sure they will be having the swim clinics. Hopefully one in fall and the other starts up in January.

Joe - nice to see you... Thanks for the info.. did two sessions so far, will get it going!!

Keep motivated! Keep moving!
-Dennis

Pink Socks

2015-09-23 12:04 PM

in reply to: 0

Extreme Veteran

1222

Tallahassee, Florida

Subject: RE: Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN)

Tyler, I think Steve's advice on the shin splits was spot-on but I will add more thing that was a major sourse of hubby's shin splits. On a run, for 1 minute, count your steps. Around 180 then you are fine. Much lower than there is a possibility that you are overstriding therefore heel striking bad. Shorten your steps and try to come close to the 180 steps. Hubby was around 150 steps and when he worked on shortening his strides, his shin splits went away.

Steve, sorry to ask this but I need your analytical mind. I've been doing 800 repeats for a couple of months now. Started with 4*800 and add 1 extra repeat ever week. For the most part, I was usually about 4:05 -4:07 for each repeat. Couple of weeks ago, I acquired a bud. Now I've noticed some thing during the intervals different when I'm alone or when with others. 3 weeks ago, my intervals were alone and 7*800 with 4:06 per repeat. 2 weeks ago, new buddy is there and I just went out like a jackrabbit and did the first 4 repeats around 3:45; buddy left and I crawled thru the last 4 repeats at 4:15ish. Last week I was alone did the 9*800 at 4:06 again. Today, first 4*800, I was alone and repeats were 4:06ish. Buddy showed up and we did 5*800 at 3:50ish and I was getting slower and slower every time. My last repeat was alone and I managed a 4:13. So.....when I'm alone, am I sandbagging and could run faster than 4:06ish? Or should I really try to hold back to my more substantianable pace on the repeats? ( I had already noticed over the years that when I went to formal intervals, I was faster than when I was alone but thought it was due to the track and having light.) My goal race is Soldier Marathon in November. Would love to get a 4:10 (BQ with birthday advantage) but my pace has been slow lately and my PR is 4:29:xx.

Mitzi, after W30 I instantly added back cheese and have noticed no problems. I've had wheat a few times and don't think I had problems. I ate beans once or twice since then but still haven't added them on a permanent basis. I allow myself wine on the weekends which has been fine. I'm currently experimenting with adding back pickles and some other condiments with sugar and thankfully haven't noticed the sugar highs and lows. Mainly though I'm trying to NOT do Dr Pepper, artificial sweeteners (Crystal Light), candy, or sugar in cooking. I will also try to eliminate most bread (but will NEED to have pizza or hamburgers some time.) My diverticulitis reared it's ugly head again so I'm currently not doing corn, popcorn, nuts, and seeds. I will be adding black beans and peas and some grains (already added black rice) and will watch them. The W30 did prove to me that my body can't handle peanut nor peanut butter. And even though mushrooms are W30 approved, they are another thing that my body doesn't like put it in. The main thing was W30 made me notice which food affected me in negative ways (high/lows, irritability, g/u issues, sleep problems). Oh, I've added gels back in for long runs (as well as squeezable baby food packs) and have had no problems and also have more energy on the long runs. (Of course that could be because our temps have dropped 20 degrees too.)

And as for training, I try to train almost all year. Since I usually have my last marathon in spring, I cut back on the long runs for several months but still try to run 4x a week. Then I try to do some (any) biking during that time and I usually increase core workouts then. More walking too. But I try to stay active in order to not be starting from scratch every year. But I do give myself a few months of mental break from training.

Edited by Pink Socks 2015-09-23 12:09 PM

2015-09-23 9:37 PM

in reply to: 0

Elite

5316

Alturas, California

Subject: RE: Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN)

Well first off Pam, those 800 repeats at 4:06 put you on target for a 4 hour 6 minute marathon. Not a lot of cushion for your 4:10:00, but much better than 4:29. You are working on your speed, so I would push for 3:50 repeats and do as many as you can at that pace. If the last 2 or 3 drop off even though you are trying your hardest, so be it. You will find that eventually you will be able to hold the 3:50 for all 800s. It is a really good test of your fitness. It also indicates that you swing a little more type B, but do have a competitive gene in there. Now.... if you want to get silly about it you can do 800 repeat temp style. 800s at 4:10, 4:05, 4:00, 3:55, 3:50, 3:45, 3:50, 3:55, 4:00, 4:05, 4:10. It is weird, but it kind of matches what pacing would look like during a marathon. You start out at a comfortable pace and work into a slightly faster pace and hold it through 13.1, then your speed drops off slightly for the 2nd half, but your effort remains at that 3:45 effort, just with more fatigue. So you build to half way then hold that effort level, knowing your pace will drop slightly. The text book, however says, try to hold the 3:50s for as many repeats as you can and then just build up your speed and endurance until your body can handle it to make that pace your new normal. The problem is your mind doesn't think your body can handle it. So you need to find some way to trick yourself into doing a harder effort and may need to play with it a bit. A third way to do this is to hit a HR of high z4 for each repeat. I know my HR in a marathon is around 166, so I want my heart rate to get to 166 to 168 for each 800 repeat and then the time is just what it is. I know I hit a hard enough effort to be where I need to be. Forth option, hire a pacer for your 800 repeats.

And I agree 90 right foot strikes per minute = the turnover you want. The main thing is that your foot needs to hit and have weight started on it as it comes under your body not way out in front. Your stride lengthens behind your butt as you run faster, not so much out in front of you. Another way to look at is is if you are sitting in a wheeled chair and you pull yourself forward with your feet... you don't want to run that way. You want to be pushing your stride out the back not pawing at the front. You want to be the back legs of the horse when you run not the front legs.

Edited by Baowolf 2015-09-23 9:59 PM

Pink Socks

2015-09-24 10:32 AM

in reply to: Baowolf

Extreme Veteran

1222

Tallahassee, Florida

Subject: RE: Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN)

Steve, thank you so much! You give me more confidence to stick my neck out. I'll do what you say and try to go harder on the intervals and then try to hang on at the end. And you are right that my mind doesn't think my body can handle it. One, two, and three months ago, our temps were still in the 80s or 90s for many of my runs and my pace just sucked, sucked, sucked. My intervals were 4:30ish and my longs runs were horrible paces. But now with temps in the 70s, I noticed my intervals and long run pace were better but I still didn't have confidence. Add to that the fact that I haven't raced since April (and that wasn't a hard effort), well I don't know my pace anymore. So next week, I'll try to hit 3:50s in my intervals and see how long I can hang on. Then I have a tune-up HM the next weekend where I was planning to go hard and then heading back out for another 4 miles or so. But I appreciate your advice tremendously because I didn't feel like bucking the conventional wisdom of dying at the end of my intervals (and my race). But your logic makes total sense.

2015-09-24 9:09 PM

in reply to: Pink Socks

Elite

5316

Alturas, California

Subject: RE: Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN)

Holding the faster pace for as many intervals as you can handle will actually increase the chance of you being able to hold your pace in those last 6 miles of the marathon. The faster pace helps to build fast twitch muscles where you will use towards the end of the race even though a marathon is more of a slow twitch race. That said, if you are well trained, a marathon is a relatively short race where you can hold a high Z4 effort for the entire race. If you are not well trained, then you will need to hold to a mid Z3 range to not crash and burn. If you can hold 12 x 3:50 800 intervals then your target marathon time is 3 hours 50 minutes. That gives you a 20 minute cushion for your 4:10 goal. The 4:06 pace only gives you a 4 minute cushion which is really tight over that long of a race.

2015-09-26 8:44 PM

in reply to: #5075206

107

Subject: RE: Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN)

33.3 miles on the bike today. It took a few days for the soreness to leave my legs from the 5 mile walk I did Tuesday. I still felt it a little at the beginning of the bike. Wow, didn't think a fast paced walk could do that! Ready to start running again. Gonna start small.

2015-09-27 12:58 PM

in reply to: respro

Elite

5316

Alturas, California

Subject: RE: Baowolf's Winter training is FUN group..no really it is!! (OPEN)

Yup, start small. You shouldn't be feeling most workouts 2 days afterwards. If you are, you overdid that workout. You should feel the effects of even a short race for a few days afterwards if you hit it hard. Triathlon is all about consistency and building slowly enough that you don't get hurt and give up or need to take 6 weeks off for a pulled muscle.