Discrimination in Boy Scouts (Page 4)

Ok, let’s get back to the original point.  The OP is upset that laws are being introduced that will stop private organisations being able to discriminate against gay people.

I find that bigoted and loathe that he wants to maintain a landscape that facilitates discrimination, especially when using his religion as justification for the view point.

Now from what I can make out, the counter argument to that view is that I’m bigoted for thinking that.  Which is ludicrous?  That’s like calling Martin Luther King a bigot for fighting racism.

So where have I got that wrong?

I get it, and appreciate your transparency.

Honestly, I often post the definition of bigot because I've been a bigot for most of my life on all kinds of topics and have worked very hard the past several years to stop.  We tend to think of bigot as such a bad word, like you're the worst of the worst, but we all can be pretty bigoted on many things because we simply don't understand how somebody could think or believe something different than what we think.  Each one of us have formed our opinions on politics, environment, social issues, etc. based on our life experiences and cultures we were raised in.  There's no way a kid who grows up in Sioux City, IA (myself) is going to be the same and have the same beliefs as a kid growing up in Manhattan. 

When it comes to people who believe in the Bible or other religious ideologies it's about believing in something greater than themselves and striving to live a more purposeful life.  There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but the sad part is we humans then like to take whatever "thing" we believe in and think lesser of anyone who believes otherwise and even go so far as to force our beliefs on others (for their own good).  This is no different for believers or non-believers because we all do it.  I don't believe in God, so you're a dork because you do.  I do believe in God so you're a dork because you don't, etc.  

I've grown so much over the years as a direct result of the respectful dialog I've had with so many people of different walks of life and backgrounds.  I absolutely love the people here on BT because It's by far the most diverse group of people I've ever encountered and I've changed my views on several things as a result.  I'm not always on my best behavior, but I truly do try to understand everyones perspective and grow from it.

Hope you have a great week Dan

I think the original OP premise is flawed because there truly was nobody or any laws (that I'm aware of) that forced the boy scouts to change their policy.  They have every right as a private organization to allow gay people to be scout leaders (which I don't have a problem with).  The OP, obviously wasn't a fan of that change which he has every right to be.  The OP has every right to pull his kids out of the Boy Scouts as a result and I wouldn't fault him in any way for that.

We've had several discussions about what constitutes discrimination here on BT so it gets a little muddy on things like this.  For example, I don't think most of us have an issue with a church school discriminating by only allowing people who are practicing christians to be teachers.  Atheists are being discriminated against technically, but due to the beliefs of the organizations we allow it because Atheism isn't a protected class.  The Boy Scouts is the same because they could as a policy (and did up until recently) not allow gay scout leaders which was discriminatory in nature, but not illegal by any means.  Our society as a whole has been elevating sexual orientation to the level of a protected class across the nation due to many instances where the discrimination was unfair and not right, but it's not quite there yet in most places.

In the context of MLK, he wasn't a bigot because he was a great man who communicated the wrongs that had been committed without beating up the people who committed them.  He wanted to bring people together and not tear them apart.  His "I have a dream" speech was a perfect example of this because he conveyed the dream of a united america where we could all be as one.  His message was love and kindness, not loathing and hatred.
Now lets look at those who murdered MLK in comparison, they were the bigots because they loathed and hated the person who dared to have a different opinion than them.

Remember, bigot is an internal reflection of how you view other peoples opinions it's not about what you believe in.  A person being a christian and believing in the biblical definition of sin is simply somebody who believes in the Bible.  Even trying to instill Biblical values into an organization is in no way bigoted, it's simply trying to use an individuals moral compass to do what they feel is right.  Other people from other walks of life are more than able to do the exact same thing and go into an organization and try to instill non-Biblical morals as the backdrop (what happened at the Boy Scouts).  Both people have different opinions, but there's no bigotry going on.  Where bigotry kicks in is when an individual refuses to allow the other person to even have the opinion and resort to shaming and name calling in an effort to force them to change their opinion and/or beliefs.  That is what a bigot does because they can not possibly tolerate somebody believing what they believe no matter what the reason.

I'm not trying to pick on you directly, just trying to put into words what's rattling around in my head.  

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Dan-L I don't loathe you at all - in fact the only reason I'm continuing the discussion is because I want to have a better formed perspective on the issue. I'm trying to be as clear as I can with how I currently feel. I don't like being this angry at my age - that's what my twenties were for. It tires me out in my 40s. I respect pretty much everybody including everybody on this thread. 'Disease of the mind' is the best way I can think of explaining it - I'm also challenging myself really hard to see if I agree I'm bigoted. But i think that the reason I'm so annoyed with those on your side of this discussion has hoepfully been clearly laid out. I'll think on it plenty more.

I get it, and appreciate your transparency.

Honestly, I often post the definition of bigot because I've been a bigot for most of my life on all kinds of topics and have worked very hard the past several years to stop.  We tend to think of bigot as such a bad word, like you're the worst of the worst, but we all can be pretty bigoted on many things because we simply don't understand how somebody could think or believe something different than what we think.  Each one of us have formed our opinions on politics, environment, social issues, etc. based on our life experiences and cultures we were raised in.  There's no way a kid who grows up in Sioux City, IA (myself) is going to be the same and have the same beliefs as a kid growing up in Manhattan. 

 

Speaking of having differing opinons... I think that where you and others get it wrong is comparing disciminatory/bigoted beliefs to simple likes and dislikes. It's an oversimplification, and, frankly, lets the bigots of the world off the hook too easily to say that hating gays or hating Jews is the same thing as hating avocados or science fiction movies. I think we've fallen in love, in this country in particular, with the idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. "I'm entitled to my opinion" is something you hear all the time. You also hear people talking about "my truth", as if everyone gets their own version of the truth. If you don't like coffee and I do, yes, by all means, you are entitled to your opinion (misguided and weird though it may be...). But if you think that fire trucks are purple or that the Sun orbits the Earth or that blacks are inherently less intelligent than whites or that homosexuality is a choice, you are, simply, wrong. And how you have come to that opinion, whether you learned it in Sunday school or from your parents, or wherever, is irrelevant. I respect, (or maybe "understand" is a better word) how someone can grow up with certain prejudices based on how they were raised or where they grew up, but that doesn't mean they should get a pass for it or that we should respect their backward, regressive, and ultimately harmful opinions just because they came by them honestly.

Curious, but what is your belief on the Bible? You seem to think anyone that basis their belief system or morals on the Bible is " backward, regressive, and ultimately harmful".

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Dan-L I don't loathe you at all - in fact the only reason I'm continuing the discussion is because I want to have a better formed perspective on the issue. I'm trying to be as clear as I can with how I currently feel. I don't like being this angry at my age - that's what my twenties were for. It tires me out in my 40s. I respect pretty much everybody including everybody on this thread. 'Disease of the mind' is the best way I can think of explaining it - I'm also challenging myself really hard to see if I agree I'm bigoted. But i think that the reason I'm so annoyed with those on your side of this discussion has hoepfully been clearly laid out. I'll think on it plenty more.

I get it, and appreciate your transparency.

Honestly, I often post the definition of bigot because I've been a bigot for most of my life on all kinds of topics and have worked very hard the past several years to stop.  We tend to think of bigot as such a bad word, like you're the worst of the worst, but we all can be pretty bigoted on many things because we simply don't understand how somebody could think or believe something different than what we think.  Each one of us have formed our opinions on politics, environment, social issues, etc. based on our life experiences and cultures we were raised in.  There's no way a kid who grows up in Sioux City, IA (myself) is going to be the same and have the same beliefs as a kid growing up in Manhattan. 

 

Speaking of having differing opinons... I think that where you and others get it wrong is comparing disciminatory/bigoted beliefs to simple likes and dislikes. It's an oversimplification, and, frankly, lets the bigots of the world off the hook too easily to say that hating gays or hating Jews is the same thing as hating avocados or science fiction movies. I think we've fallen in love, in this country in particular, with the idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. "I'm entitled to my opinion" is something you hear all the time. You also hear people talking about "my truth", as if everyone gets their own version of the truth. If you don't like coffee and I do, yes, by all means, you are entitled to your opinion (misguided and weird though it may be...). But if you think that fire trucks are purple or that the Sun orbits the Earth or that blacks are inherently less intelligent than whites or that homosexuality is a choice, you are, simply, wrong. And how you have come to that opinion, whether you learned it in Sunday school or from your parents, or wherever, is irrelevant. I respect, (or maybe "understand" is a better word) how someone can grow up with certain prejudices based on how they were raised or where they grew up, but that doesn't mean they should get a pass for it or that we should respect their backward, regressive, and ultimately harmful opinions just because they came by them honestly.

I think the flaw in your point is that discrimination and bigotry are not beliefs, they're actions.  I can be a racist all day long, but if I treat minorities like anyone else then I'm not discriminating against them.  I have to treat them differently in order to actually discriminate.
I know you don't think all christians hate gays, but the way you describe it is as if being a Christian and believing in the Biblical definition of marriage somehow automatically makes somebody a hater.

Like it or not, people do get to have their opinions in America and it's a scary thought to try and fashion a system that doesn't allow this.  There's no question that people abuse the "truth" argument, but that is consistent on both sides of any argument.  I've had many discussions here on BT where I was told about facts, that were nothing more than somebodies opinion (even scientific opinion) when there were just as many "factual" studies that showed otherwise.  (global warming comes to mind)

When it comes to hate, discrimination, and bigotry it has nothing to do at all with the underlying beliefs it has to do with the actions of that individual.

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by NXS

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Dan-L I don't loathe you at all - in fact the only reason I'm continuing the discussion is because I want to have a better formed perspective on the issue. I'm trying to be as clear as I can with how I currently feel. I don't like being this angry at my age - that's what my twenties were for. It tires me out in my 40s. I respect pretty much everybody including everybody on this thread. 'Disease of the mind' is the best way I can think of explaining it - I'm also challenging myself really hard to see if I agree I'm bigoted. But i think that the reason I'm so annoyed with those on your side of this discussion has hoepfully been clearly laid out. I'll think on it plenty more.

I get it, and appreciate your transparency.

Honestly, I often post the definition of bigot because I've been a bigot for most of my life on all kinds of topics and have worked very hard the past several years to stop.  We tend to think of bigot as such a bad word, like you're the worst of the worst, but we all can be pretty bigoted on many things because we simply don't understand how somebody could think or believe something different than what we think.  Each one of us have formed our opinions on politics, environment, social issues, etc. based on our life experiences and cultures we were raised in.  There's no way a kid who grows up in Sioux City, IA (myself) is going to be the same and have the same beliefs as a kid growing up in Manhattan. 

 

Speaking of having differing opinons... I think that where you and others get it wrong is comparing disciminatory/bigoted beliefs to simple likes and dislikes. It's an oversimplification, and, frankly, lets the bigots of the world off the hook too easily to say that hating gays or hating Jews is the same thing as hating avocados or science fiction movies. I think we've fallen in love, in this country in particular, with the idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. "I'm entitled to my opinion" is something you hear all the time. You also hear people talking about "my truth", as if everyone gets their own version of the truth. If you don't like coffee and I do, yes, by all means, you are entitled to your opinion (misguided and weird though it may be...). But if you think that fire trucks are purple or that the Sun orbits the Earth or that blacks are inherently less intelligent than whites or that homosexuality is a choice, you are, simply, wrong. And how you have come to that opinion, whether you learned it in Sunday school or from your parents, or wherever, is irrelevant. I respect, (or maybe "understand" is a better word) how someone can grow up with certain prejudices based on how they were raised or where they grew up, but that doesn't mean they should get a pass for it or that we should respect their backward, regressive, and ultimately harmful opinions just because they came by them honestly.

So what/who is the ultimate authority on what the "truth" is?

That depends. Are you trying to argue that fire trucks are purple or that homosexuality is a choice? The point is, there is no single source that is the arbiter of all that is true about everything. If you think there is, whether you think that single source is your religion or Fox news or Oprah or whatever, you're going to be wrong more than you're right.

BT is my source..

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by NXS

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Dan-L I don't loathe you at all - in fact the only reason I'm continuing the discussion is because I want to have a better formed perspective on the issue. I'm trying to be as clear as I can with how I currently feel. I don't like being this angry at my age - that's what my twenties were for. It tires me out in my 40s. I respect pretty much everybody including everybody on this thread. 'Disease of the mind' is the best way I can think of explaining it - I'm also challenging myself really hard to see if I agree I'm bigoted. But i think that the reason I'm so annoyed with those on your side of this discussion has hoepfully been clearly laid out. I'll think on it plenty more.

I get it, and appreciate your transparency.

Honestly, I often post the definition of bigot because I've been a bigot for most of my life on all kinds of topics and have worked very hard the past several years to stop.  We tend to think of bigot as such a bad word, like you're the worst of the worst, but we all can be pretty bigoted on many things because we simply don't understand how somebody could think or believe something different than what we think.  Each one of us have formed our opinions on politics, environment, social issues, etc. based on our life experiences and cultures we were raised in.  There's no way a kid who grows up in Sioux City, IA (myself) is going to be the same and have the same beliefs as a kid growing up in Manhattan. 

 

Speaking of having differing opinons... I think that where you and others get it wrong is comparing disciminatory/bigoted beliefs to simple likes and dislikes. It's an oversimplification, and, frankly, lets the bigots of the world off the hook too easily to say that hating gays or hating Jews is the same thing as hating avocados or science fiction movies. I think we've fallen in love, in this country in particular, with the idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. "I'm entitled to my opinion" is something you hear all the time. You also hear people talking about "my truth", as if everyone gets their own version of the truth. If you don't like coffee and I do, yes, by all means, you are entitled to your opinion (misguided and weird though it may be...). But if you think that fire trucks are purple or that the Sun orbits the Earth or that blacks are inherently less intelligent than whites or that homosexuality is a choice, you are, simply, wrong. And how you have come to that opinion, whether you learned it in Sunday school or from your parents, or wherever, is irrelevant. I respect, (or maybe "understand" is a better word) how someone can grow up with certain prejudices based on how they were raised or where they grew up, but that doesn't mean they should get a pass for it or that we should respect their backward, regressive, and ultimately harmful opinions just because they came by them honestly.

So what/who is the ultimate authority on what the "truth" is?

That depends. Are you trying to argue that fire trucks are purple or that homosexuality is a choice? The point is, there is no single source that is the arbiter of all that is true about everything. If you think there is, whether you think that single source is your religion or Fox news or Oprah or whatever, you're going to be wrong more than you're right.

BT is my source..

 

You jest, but honestly, I've probably learned more about opposing viewpoints on BT than anywhere else.

I can honestly say the same.  I absolutely love the diversity and civil nature of the group here.

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by NXS

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Dan-L I don't loathe you at all - in fact the only reason I'm continuing the discussion is because I want to have a better formed perspective on the issue. I'm trying to be as clear as I can with how I currently feel. I don't like being this angry at my age - that's what my twenties were for. It tires me out in my 40s. I respect pretty much everybody including everybody on this thread. 'Disease of the mind' is the best way I can think of explaining it - I'm also challenging myself really hard to see if I agree I'm bigoted. But i think that the reason I'm so annoyed with those on your side of this discussion has hoepfully been clearly laid out. I'll think on it plenty more.

I get it, and appreciate your transparency.

Honestly, I often post the definition of bigot because I've been a bigot for most of my life on all kinds of topics and have worked very hard the past several years to stop.  We tend to think of bigot as such a bad word, like you're the worst of the worst, but we all can be pretty bigoted on many things because we simply don't understand how somebody could think or believe something different than what we think.  Each one of us have formed our opinions on politics, environment, social issues, etc. based on our life experiences and cultures we were raised in.  There's no way a kid who grows up in Sioux City, IA (myself) is going to be the same and have the same beliefs as a kid growing up in Manhattan. 

 

Speaking of having differing opinons... I think that where you and others get it wrong is comparing disciminatory/bigoted beliefs to simple likes and dislikes. It's an oversimplification, and, frankly, lets the bigots of the world off the hook too easily to say that hating gays or hating Jews is the same thing as hating avocados or science fiction movies. I think we've fallen in love, in this country in particular, with the idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. "I'm entitled to my opinion" is something you hear all the time. You also hear people talking about "my truth", as if everyone gets their own version of the truth. If you don't like coffee and I do, yes, by all means, you are entitled to your opinion (misguided and weird though it may be...). But if you think that fire trucks are purple or that the Sun orbits the Earth or that blacks are inherently less intelligent than whites or that homosexuality is a choice, you are, simply, wrong. And how you have come to that opinion, whether you learned it in Sunday school or from your parents, or wherever, is irrelevant. I respect, (or maybe "understand" is a better word) how someone can grow up with certain prejudices based on how they were raised or where they grew up, but that doesn't mean they should get a pass for it or that we should respect their backward, regressive, and ultimately harmful opinions just because they came by them honestly.

So what/who is the ultimate authority on what the "truth" is?

That depends. Are you trying to argue that fire trucks are purple or that homosexuality is a choice? The point is, there is no single source that is the arbiter of all that is true about everything. If you think there is, whether you think that single source is your religion or Fox news or Oprah or whatever, you're going to be wrong more than you're right.

BT is my source..

 

You jest, but honestly, I've probably learned more about opposing viewpoints on BT than anywhere else.

I can honestly say the same.  I absolutely love the diversity and civil nature of the group here.

BT is really not that good anymore....back in the day it was s...........oh, sorry....I was channeling again.

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by NXS

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by NXS

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Dan-L I don't loathe you at all - in fact the only reason I'm continuing the discussion is because I want to have a better formed perspective on the issue. I'm trying to be as clear as I can with how I currently feel. I don't like being this angry at my age - that's what my twenties were for. It tires me out in my 40s. I respect pretty much everybody including everybody on this thread. 'Disease of the mind' is the best way I can think of explaining it - I'm also challenging myself really hard to see if I agree I'm bigoted. But i think that the reason I'm so annoyed with those on your side of this discussion has hoepfully been clearly laid out. I'll think on it plenty more.

I get it, and appreciate your transparency.

Honestly, I often post the definition of bigot because I've been a bigot for most of my life on all kinds of topics and have worked very hard the past several years to stop.  We tend to think of bigot as such a bad word, like you're the worst of the worst, but we all can be pretty bigoted on many things because we simply don't understand how somebody could think or believe something different than what we think.  Each one of us have formed our opinions on politics, environment, social issues, etc. based on our life experiences and cultures we were raised in.  There's no way a kid who grows up in Sioux City, IA (myself) is going to be the same and have the same beliefs as a kid growing up in Manhattan. 

 

Speaking of having differing opinons... I think that where you and others get it wrong is comparing disciminatory/bigoted beliefs to simple likes and dislikes. It's an oversimplification, and, frankly, lets the bigots of the world off the hook too easily to say that hating gays or hating Jews is the same thing as hating avocados or science fiction movies. I think we've fallen in love, in this country in particular, with the idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. "I'm entitled to my opinion" is something you hear all the time. You also hear people talking about "my truth", as if everyone gets their own version of the truth. If you don't like coffee and I do, yes, by all means, you are entitled to your opinion (misguided and weird though it may be...). But if you think that fire trucks are purple or that the Sun orbits the Earth or that blacks are inherently less intelligent than whites or that homosexuality is a choice, you are, simply, wrong. And how you have come to that opinion, whether you learned it in Sunday school or from your parents, or wherever, is irrelevant. I respect, (or maybe "understand" is a better word) how someone can grow up with certain prejudices based on how they were raised or where they grew up, but that doesn't mean they should get a pass for it or that we should respect their backward, regressive, and ultimately harmful opinions just because they came by them honestly.

So what/who is the ultimate authority on what the "truth" is?

That depends. Are you trying to argue that fire trucks are purple or that homosexuality is a choice? The point is, there is no single source that is the arbiter of all that is true about everything. If you think there is, whether you think that single source is your religion or Fox news or Oprah or whatever, you're going to be wrong more than you're right.

So who/what is the source moral truth?

Are you asking, "who gets to decide what's 'right' and what's 'wrong'?"

Let me guess, you are either a lawyer or a politician? 

Originally posted by NXS

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by NXS

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Dan-L I don't loathe you at all - in fact the only reason I'm continuing the discussion is because I want to have a better formed perspective on the issue. I'm trying to be as clear as I can with how I currently feel. I don't like being this angry at my age - that's what my twenties were for. It tires me out in my 40s. I respect pretty much everybody including everybody on this thread. 'Disease of the mind' is the best way I can think of explaining it - I'm also challenging myself really hard to see if I agree I'm bigoted. But i think that the reason I'm so annoyed with those on your side of this discussion has hoepfully been clearly laid out. I'll think on it plenty more.

I get it, and appreciate your transparency.

Honestly, I often post the definition of bigot because I've been a bigot for most of my life on all kinds of topics and have worked very hard the past several years to stop.  We tend to think of bigot as such a bad word, like you're the worst of the worst, but we all can be pretty bigoted on many things because we simply don't understand how somebody could think or believe something different than what we think.  Each one of us have formed our opinions on politics, environment, social issues, etc. based on our life experiences and cultures we were raised in.  There's no way a kid who grows up in Sioux City, IA (myself) is going to be the same and have the same beliefs as a kid growing up in Manhattan. 

 

Speaking of having differing opinons... I think that where you and others get it wrong is comparing disciminatory/bigoted beliefs to simple likes and dislikes. It's an oversimplification, and, frankly, lets the bigots of the world off the hook too easily to say that hating gays or hating Jews is the same thing as hating avocados or science fiction movies. I think we've fallen in love, in this country in particular, with the idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. "I'm entitled to my opinion" is something you hear all the time. You also hear people talking about "my truth", as if everyone gets their own version of the truth. If you don't like coffee and I do, yes, by all means, you are entitled to your opinion (misguided and weird though it may be...). But if you think that fire trucks are purple or that the Sun orbits the Earth or that blacks are inherently less intelligent than whites or that homosexuality is a choice, you are, simply, wrong. And how you have come to that opinion, whether you learned it in Sunday school or from your parents, or wherever, is irrelevant. I respect, (or maybe "understand" is a better word) how someone can grow up with certain prejudices based on how they were raised or where they grew up, but that doesn't mean they should get a pass for it or that we should respect their backward, regressive, and ultimately harmful opinions just because they came by them honestly.

So what/who is the ultimate authority on what the "truth" is?

That depends. Are you trying to argue that fire trucks are purple or that homosexuality is a choice? The point is, there is no single source that is the arbiter of all that is true about everything. If you think there is, whether you think that single source is your religion or Fox news or Oprah or whatever, you're going to be wrong more than you're right.

So who/what is the source moral truth?

My wife.....just ask her.

That is who I was asking!  LOL

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Dan-L I don't loathe you at all - in fact the only reason I'm continuing the discussion is because I want to have a better formed perspective on the issue. I'm trying to be as clear as I can with how I currently feel. I don't like being this angry at my age - that's what my twenties were for. It tires me out in my 40s. I respect pretty much everybody including everybody on this thread. 'Disease of the mind' is the best way I can think of explaining it - I'm also challenging myself really hard to see if I agree I'm bigoted. But i think that the reason I'm so annoyed with those on your side of this discussion has hoepfully been clearly laid out. I'll think on it plenty more.

I get it, and appreciate your transparency.

Honestly, I often post the definition of bigot because I've been a bigot for most of my life on all kinds of topics and have worked very hard the past several years to stop.  We tend to think of bigot as such a bad word, like you're the worst of the worst, but we all can be pretty bigoted on many things because we simply don't understand how somebody could think or believe something different than what we think.  Each one of us have formed our opinions on politics, environment, social issues, etc. based on our life experiences and cultures we were raised in.  There's no way a kid who grows up in Sioux City, IA (myself) is going to be the same and have the same beliefs as a kid growing up in Manhattan. 

 

Speaking of having differing opinons... I think that where you and others get it wrong is comparing disciminatory/bigoted beliefs to simple likes and dislikes. It's an oversimplification, and, frankly, lets the bigots of the world off the hook too easily to say that hating gays or hating Jews is the same thing as hating avocados or science fiction movies. I think we've fallen in love, in this country in particular, with the idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. "I'm entitled to my opinion" is something you hear all the time. You also hear people talking about "my truth", as if everyone gets their own version of the truth. If you don't like coffee and I do, yes, by all means, you are entitled to your opinion (misguided and weird though it may be...). But if you think that fire trucks are purple or that the Sun orbits the Earth or that blacks are inherently less intelligent than whites or that homosexuality is a choice, you are, simply, wrong. And how you have come to that opinion, whether you learned it in Sunday school or from your parents, or wherever, is irrelevant. I respect, (or maybe "understand" is a better word) how someone can grow up with certain prejudices based on how they were raised or where they grew up, but that doesn't mean they should get a pass for it or that we should respect their backward, regressive, and ultimately harmful opinions just because they came by them honestly.

I think the flaw in your point is that discrimination and bigotry are not beliefs, they're actions.  I can be a racist all day long, but if I treat minorities like anyone else then I'm not discriminating against them.  I have to treat them differently in order to actually discriminate.
I know you don't think all christians hate gays, but the way you describe it is as if being a Christian and believing in the Biblical definition of marriage somehow automatically makes somebody a hater.

Like it or not, people do get to have their opinions in America and it's a scary thought to try and fashion a system that doesn't allow this.  There's no question that people abuse the "truth" argument, but that is consistent on both sides of any argument.  I've had many discussions here on BT where I was told about facts, that were nothing more than somebodies opinion (even scientific opinion) when there were just as many "factual" studies that showed otherwise.  (global warming comes to mind)

When it comes to hate, discrimination, and bigotry it has nothing to do at all with the underlying beliefs it has to do with the actions of that individual.

 

 

A person who lives in a cave in the mountains and hates all nonwhite people is still a bigot, regardless of whether he ever comes in contact with one or has the opportunity to mistreat them. Your position seems to be that unless someone actually acts on their prejudicial opinions, they aren't really a bigot, and I disagree. It's true, I suppose, that they aren't doing anything illegal if they just sit on their front porch and quietly hate black people, and yes, people are allowed to believe what they like as long as they don't act on it, but that doesn't make their hateful, backward opinions valid. Discrimination cannot exist unless there are bigots, and while the guy sitting on his front porch quietly hating minorities isn't as bad as the guy who denies housing to them, he's nevertheless perpetuating the environment that allows the latter bigot to exist. That it isn't illegal to be a bigot unless one commits a discriminatory act is true enough, but being a bigot, even in silence, is still wrong.

On the surface I'm in agreement with you, but the question is what do we do about it?  We can't legislate against thoughts, we con only legislate against actions.  I'm not saying it's right for somebody to hate or think hateful thoughts, but in America (and really anywhere) they get to do it.

Just as an example, Christian households are generally going to teach their kids about the Bible and the Biblical definition of marriage and sexuality.  If somebody simply believing that homosexuality is a sin is "hate" and makes them a Bigot then the only way to fix that would be to Ban Christianity and the practice thereof which obviously isn't going to happen.

People screw their kids up in thousands of ways through spoiling, not enough discipline, too much discipline, anger, pride, verbal abuse, sexual exposure (pornography type stuff), hatred, racism, you name it.  None of these things are good and none of us want people to do them but they're all legal in our society.  I can't stand hatred or bigotry towards anyone, so I work very hard to meet people where they are at and come along side them to teach them a better way.  If I become a hater or bigot right back at them, it will never change a thing.  

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by NXS

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Dan-L I don't loathe you at all - in fact the only reason I'm continuing the discussion is because I want to have a better formed perspective on the issue. I'm trying to be as clear as I can with how I currently feel. I don't like being this angry at my age - that's what my twenties were for. It tires me out in my 40s. I respect pretty much everybody including everybody on this thread. 'Disease of the mind' is the best way I can think of explaining it - I'm also challenging myself really hard to see if I agree I'm bigoted. But i think that the reason I'm so annoyed with those on your side of this discussion has hoepfully been clearly laid out. I'll think on it plenty more.

I get it, and appreciate your transparency.

Honestly, I often post the definition of bigot because I've been a bigot for most of my life on all kinds of topics and have worked very hard the past several years to stop.  We tend to think of bigot as such a bad word, like you're the worst of the worst, but we all can be pretty bigoted on many things because we simply don't understand how somebody could think or believe something different than what we think.  Each one of us have formed our opinions on politics, environment, social issues, etc. based on our life experiences and cultures we were raised in.  There's no way a kid who grows up in Sioux City, IA (myself) is going to be the same and have the same beliefs as a kid growing up in Manhattan. 

 

Speaking of having differing opinons... I think that where you and others get it wrong is comparing disciminatory/bigoted beliefs to simple likes and dislikes. It's an oversimplification, and, frankly, lets the bigots of the world off the hook too easily to say that hating gays or hating Jews is the same thing as hating avocados or science fiction movies. I think we've fallen in love, in this country in particular, with the idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. "I'm entitled to my opinion" is something you hear all the time. You also hear people talking about "my truth", as if everyone gets their own version of the truth. If you don't like coffee and I do, yes, by all means, you are entitled to your opinion (misguided and weird though it may be...). But if you think that fire trucks are purple or that the Sun orbits the Earth or that blacks are inherently less intelligent than whites or that homosexuality is a choice, you are, simply, wrong. And how you have come to that opinion, whether you learned it in Sunday school or from your parents, or wherever, is irrelevant. I respect, (or maybe "understand" is a better word) how someone can grow up with certain prejudices based on how they were raised or where they grew up, but that doesn't mean they should get a pass for it or that we should respect their backward, regressive, and ultimately harmful opinions just because they came by them honestly.

So what/who is the ultimate authority on what the "truth" is?

That depends. Are you trying to argue that fire trucks are purple or that homosexuality is a choice? The point is, there is no single source that is the arbiter of all that is true about everything. If you think there is, whether you think that single source is your religion or Fox news or Oprah or whatever, you're going to be wrong more than you're right.

BT is my source..

 

You jest, but honestly, I've probably learned more about opposing viewpoints on BT than anywhere else.

I can honestly say the same.  I absolutely love the diversity and civil nature of the group here.

BT is really not that good anymore....back in the day it was s...........oh, sorry....I was channeling again.

I miss our old BT too.   Is Ron still running everything or has it changed around?  I pretty much just creep CoJ and PCoJ every now and again so I don't keep up with everything.

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by tuwood

Originally posted by Dan-L I don't loathe you at all - in fact the only reason I'm continuing the discussion is because I want to have a better formed perspective on the issue. I'm trying to be as clear as I can with how I currently feel. I don't like being this angry at my age - that's what my twenties were for. It tires me out in my 40s. I respect pretty much everybody including everybody on this thread. 'Disease of the mind' is the best way I can think of explaining it - I'm also challenging myself really hard to see if I agree I'm bigoted. But i think that the reason I'm so annoyed with those on your side of this discussion has hoepfully been clearly laid out. I'll think on it plenty more.

I get it, and appreciate your transparency.

Honestly, I often post the definition of bigot because I've been a bigot for most of my life on all kinds of topics and have worked very hard the past several years to stop.  We tend to think of bigot as such a bad word, like you're the worst of the worst, but we all can be pretty bigoted on many things because we simply don't understand how somebody could think or believe something different than what we think.  Each one of us have formed our opinions on politics, environment, social issues, etc. based on our life experiences and cultures we were raised in.  There's no way a kid who grows up in Sioux City, IA (myself) is going to be the same and have the same beliefs as a kid growing up in Manhattan. 

 

Speaking of having differing opinons... I think that where you and others get it wrong is comparing disciminatory/bigoted beliefs to simple likes and dislikes. It's an oversimplification, and, frankly, lets the bigots of the world off the hook too easily to say that hating gays or hating Jews is the same thing as hating avocados or science fiction movies. I think we've fallen in love, in this country in particular, with the idea that everyone's opinion is equally valid. "I'm entitled to my opinion" is something you hear all the time. You also hear people talking about "my truth", as if everyone gets their own version of the truth. If you don't like coffee and I do, yes, by all means, you are entitled to your opinion (misguided and weird though it may be...). But if you think that fire trucks are purple or that the Sun orbits the Earth or that blacks are inherently less intelligent than whites or that homosexuality is a choice, you are, simply, wrong. And how you have come to that opinion, whether you learned it in Sunday school or from your parents, or wherever, is irrelevant. I respect, (or maybe "understand" is a better word) how someone can grow up with certain prejudices based on how they were raised or where they grew up, but that doesn't mean they should get a pass for it or that we should respect their backward, regressive, and ultimately harmful opinions just because they came by them honestly.

I think the flaw in your point is that discrimination and bigotry are not beliefs, they're actions.  I can be a racist all day long, but if I treat minorities like anyone else then I'm not discriminating against them.  I have to treat them differently in order to actually discriminate.
I know you don't think all christians hate gays, but the way you describe it is as if being a Christian and believing in the Biblical definition of marriage somehow automatically makes somebody a hater.

Like it or not, people do get to have their opinions in America and it's a scary thought to try and fashion a system that doesn't allow this.  There's no question that people abuse the "truth" argument, but that is consistent on both sides of any argument.  I've had many discussions here on BT where I was told about facts, that were nothing more than somebodies opinion (even scientific opinion) when there were just as many "factual" studies that showed otherwise.  (global warming comes to mind)

When it comes to hate, discrimination, and bigotry it has nothing to do at all with the underlying beliefs it has to do with the actions of that individual.

 

 

A person who lives in a cave in the mountains and hates all nonwhite people is still a bigot, regardless of whether he ever comes in contact with one or has the opportunity to mistreat them. Your position seems to be that unless someone actually acts on their prejudicial opinions, they aren't really a bigot, and I disagree. It's true, I suppose, that they aren't doing anything illegal if they just sit on their front porch and quietly hate black people, and yes, people are allowed to believe what they like as long as they don't act on it, but that doesn't make their hateful, backward opinions valid. Discrimination cannot exist unless there are bigots, and while the guy sitting on his front porch quietly hating minorities isn't as bad as the guy who denies housing to them, he's nevertheless perpetuating the environment that allows the latter bigot to exist. That it isn't illegal to be a bigot unless one commits a discriminatory act is true enough, but being a bigot, even in silence, is still wrong.

On the surface I'm in agreement with you, but the question is what do we do about it?  We can't legislate against thoughts, we con only legislate against actions.  I'm not saying it's right for somebody to hate or think hateful thoughts, but in America (and really anywhere) they get to do it.

Just as an example, Christian households are generally going to teach their kids about the Bible and the Biblical definition of marriage and sexuality.  If somebody simply believing that homosexuality is a sin is "hate" and makes them a Bigot then the only way to fix that would be to Ban Christianity and the practice thereof which obviously isn't going to happen.

People screw their kids up in thousands of ways through spoiling, not enough discipline, too much discipline, anger, pride, verbal abuse, sexual exposure (pornography type stuff), hatred, racism, you name it.  None of these things are good and none of us want people to do them but they're all legal in our society.  I can't stand hatred or bigotry towards anyone, so I work very hard to meet people where they are at and come along side them to teach them a better way.  If I become a hater or bigot right back at them, it will never change a thing.  

The answer to "what do we do about it?" is simple--we stop acting as though it's ok, and stop perpetuating the false notion that as long as you don't act on your hateful regressive opinions, it's all good. And, to bring it back to the OP, stop supporting organizations that actively perpetuate narrow-mindedness and bigotry. In other words, we stop acting like someone's bigoted opinion is equally valid.

But I like talking to you, and want to still treat your opinion as equally valid.