Team No DNF - FULL (Page 4)

I live in maine and the water never gets warm... so I'm looking for a wetsuit also. Is it better to just try on at a store and then to buy online?
heres a swimming question for anyone. I take my breath and yet never feel like I've gotten a good breath. My body isn't tired at all just practically hyperventilating. Any suggestions?

How much does the wind affect your running speed?  I ran tonight, through my neighborhood, which is about the max of my limit right now (a little over 2 miles)  I do a combination of running and walking, trying to increase my run time every run. 

The course is basically an out and back.  On the out route, I did a 2 minute brisk walk for a warm up, followed by 3 minutes of running and 1 minute of recovery walk.  It took about 12 minutes for the out.  On the way back, I wanted to see if I could shorten the walk times from 3 times to just one.  I did it, by running between 5 and 6 minutes at a time, with 1 minute walk in between. 

My total time increased by a little over a minute.  It was fairly windy tonight during the run.  I figure this would account for a little increase.  Or, is it maybe that my pace slowed down because I increased my running time and was not running as freshly as prior on prior runs?  Keep in mind, I've never been any kind of a runner and I just started a little over a month ago.

Otherwise, the run felt good and I thought I made good progress.

Kevin

I'm by no means an expert, but are you breathing out during your strokes while your head is underwater?  There isn't much time during your breathing time to expell 2 partially filled lungs and fill them back up again.  I read this somewhere, but could not find the post. 

I'm trying to make an effort to breathe underwater and being out of breath as I turn my head to take another breath.

Just a thought.

Kevin

Edited by Cutlass454 2009-04-13 10:00 PM

Are you fully exhaling when your face is in the water?  A common breathing issue with swimming is holding your breath when your face is underwater then trying to exhale and inhale when you turn to breath.

If you're not emptying your lungs between inhales you're going to end up with CO2 buildup which will make you feel breathless.

 

Edit - It looks like Kevin beat me to the answer.  I swear that post wasn't there a second ago.  That must mean it's time for me to get out of work.  I've used up all my brain cells.

Edited by esc 2009-04-13 10:45 PM

John mentioned to me in an Inspire that running into the wind can add as much as one minute to your per mile pace! Good work on getting out there!

Does anyone here have knee problems? I never have before but noticed on the weekend that I had some pain in my left knee. It feels like a bruise just underneath the knee cap. I didn't feel the pain while running/practicing yoga/swimming, but I felt it before and after. Is it something to worry about? Or can you get internal bruises that will just go away?

Knee pain is probably the biggest pain in the butt for training. I've had 5 knee surgeries which ultimately left me without a lateral meniscus, now I have a bursitis that won't go away in the same area. Just make sure you are paying attention to your body. If its really starting to bother you take time off. If it lingers (and you've been taking it easy) it can't hurt to get it checked out.

For Zachcoe re: Breathing and Swimming.


Are you completely breathing out before you take your breath?
Try breathing out while your head is still facing down in the water and then when you turn you will be ready to get a full breath in.

Fi

Edited:
LOL: So sorry, just read everyone else's comments re breathing out. I guess that's the consensus.

Edited by alexenafi 2009-04-14 9:11 AM

Definitely get it checked out sooner rather than later. It could be an alignment problem or one of several other issues. If you continue to increase miles on a niggling knee you will most likely create a chronic injury. It could be something as simple as getting different shoes to correct a gait problem.

Don't bother with a family doctor. Go to a physio or sports doctor to get a proper analysis then once you have that information you can make an informed decision on what to do. It's not a case of throwing down some Advil you need to work out  what's causing it and go from there. An early diagnosis of the issue will mean less time away from training in the long run.

Good luck.
Fi

When was the last time you changed out your running shoes? Old shoes that are starting to break down can start to cause all kinds of havoc with the knees and hips. Shoes are generally good for anywhere from 200-500 miles depending on various factors.

And yes, if you don't breath out completely when swimming, you'll start to run into that gaspy feeling. CO2 is something like 20x more soluble in blood than O2, so the more CO2 you retain in your lungs, the more likely your O2 saturation will go down, resulting in that "gotta breathe" sensation.

One good way is to exhale to a count, much like you do in running. Get in a good rhythm, and just make sure that your exhalation rate is such that when you are just about ready to start a breathing stroke, you are expelling your last air.

John

Thought for the day: Economy of motion

Triathlon is one of a few unique sports that combine separate activities. When you are participating, not only are you trying to race, but also budget your energy so that you can be consistent across all three disciplines for effort. One of the things to consider is economy of motion.

What this means is try to reduce wasted movement. When swimming, if you are over rotating, or have a really wide kick, you are reducing the efficiency of the stroke, and also adding extra movement. If you over rotate by say 3" on a breathing stroke, then for every 10 breaths (20 strokes), which is about 25m for the average swimmer, then you are basically adding a complete body roll every 25m. Doesn't seem like much, but over an Olympic distance, that's 60 log rolls.

Cycling you're pretty static, but if you find yourself shifting positions all the time, or your knees go in a circle rather than up and down, it might be a good time to have someone knowledgable take a look at your position.

Running it plays a HUGE part. If you can watch your shadow when you run, make sure your upper body/head aren't swaying back and forth. Kind of "eyeball" your shoulders, they should have minimal movement. Your upper torso, hips and head should all be fairly straight, and relaxed. I usually teach to keep your hands relaxed and cupped, like you were holding half of a nerf ball in your palm. Your hands will help drive your feet, if you want to run faster, your hands/arms should be moving faster as well, in a forward/back motion, rather than an around/back and forth type motion.

Most runners pick the stridge length and rate that is naturally best for them, so don't dink around trying to run an artificial 90+ cadence if that isn't natural for you. Also, when you hear people talking about forefoot striking, that doesn't necessarily mean that the forefoot is the FIRST thing that touches the ground. The footstrike is the point where the greatest amount of weight is planted on the foot. If you watch slow motion of Gebresaillaise (sp?), his heel touches first, but his weight plants over the ball of the foot.

So, the next time you work out, spend a little time analyzing yourself. The more you know about your own body and how it reacts/works, the better prepared you will be out on the race course. :D

Happy training!

John

I'll try to touch on a few things that people have asked lately as well.

I have the same problem with my breathing in the pool.  But for me, when I try to work on things like bilateral breathing, I get way out of rhythm.  And also when I go for nice easy swims, I have a harder time because I turn my head way too far when I breathe then.  I don't pick it up, just over-rotate.  But part of my reason that I do it, is because I feel I need more time out of the water so I can get a good breath.  My coach just was talking to me last night about breathing, and he said that it's not imperative to have all of your air out when you go to take a breath, but it helps.  I usually am still breathing out just a little as I start turning for my breath, and it's not really impacted my ability to get a good breath as I've started working on rotating less.  Ultimately, what works best for me, is when I focus on other things than breathing.  I find that ANYTIME I try to focus on breathing, I have a harder time with it, but when I focus on other things, my body breathes in a way that it needs to without me trying to make it breathe how I want it to.

For knee pain, I second resting a little bit before going to a Dr.  You said your shoes are relatively new, and it could just be that.  Try some shorter runs to get them broken in well and your body used to running in them.  This would be a great time to also work on your swim a little more.  So maybe a shorter run then an extra 30 mins in the pool or something. 

And as far as conservation of motion, I feel I'm pretty good with this on the bike, I don't rotate nearly as much when I breathe during the swim now, but with the running, my belly is all over the place.  I've tried to work on making it more pointy in the front so I could be more aero, but it's just not working yet. 

The other thing you can do while breaking them in is to do a 2:1 ratio, 2 runs in your old shoes for every 1 in your new shoes. Anytime you have a weird pain that wasn't there before, check anything that's changed. I'd suspect that your new shoes make your legs/knees/feet track just a little different than the old ones, and that's the source of the pain. Good luck, I hope this works out well in the end!

John

Fi, I am much better about not lifting my head to breathe, and I only rotate on my "pole", but I tend to rotate a little too much.  This mostly happens as I try to swim easy, as there just isn't time when I'm doing sprints and really pushing.  So it's more of a thing where I just need to stop over-rotating on my breath strokes.

Sounds like you have a good understanding of your own stroke - which is half the battle.
Try doing extended (or  sometimes called Long) dog paddle where your arms pull under water, like when your finishing up the pull phrase of freestyle. Return your hands to the start position under the water. Keep your head in a Freestyle position.

This should shorten up your roll and direct your body towards forward propulsion.

Fi

I guarantee that I am one who "over-rotates" to breathe. Similar to Fiona's description of being on a pole, TI says that you should breathe by rolling up to the air (like you need to breathe out of your belly button) so as not to disrupt the body's rhythym and line in the water.

Now, I am a pitifully slow swimmer. Really, really bad. Thanks to my TI stroke, however, I'm not concerned about completing any of the distances. But practicing TI is all about  maximizing stroke length rather than training for endurance or speed. When I try to go faster, I lose my form. I don't know what to be more concerned with: getting fast with my current stroke, or being able to complete the distances with a regular stroke?

Personally, I've never really been a big fan of TI, just because it doesn't really teach what I call a "competitive" stroke freestyle. It teaches a decent, sound stroke that enables you to swim the distance, but it isn't built for speed, per se. There are small differences between a pool competition freestyle stroke and the freestyle stroke that you learn through TI. If you have access to a stroke coach (as opposed to a swim coach that knows how to build workouts), get a few lessons with them, and you can see the difference.

TI is good for what it is, but I started as a swimmer so I'm a little bit biased....

That being said , if you are confident that you can complete the distance, then it's time to start working on the speed. Shorter intervals at much higher intensity with longer rest periods is one of the best ways to do this, things like 5x100 at 110% of race pace, on 6:00. (That means you have 6:00 to complete the swim and your rest). 10x50 at 110% on 3:00, things like that.

Longer intervals with shorter rest, lower intensity to build the endurance, short intervals, higher intensity with longer rest to build speed. Make sure that you keep form drills either as a part of every workout, or if you are doing 3+ swims a week, make one swim workout fairly drill specific.

John

When running in high winds, plan ahead. Run into the wind going out, and WITH the wind coming back.

These words brought to you by the adage "Do as I say, not as I do..."

John

Just want to say that I really appreciate the level of coaching that you are giving. You obviously take this very seriously and it shows. We are a very lucky group.

Thanks!!!

Fi

x2 what Fiona said - John, you rock! And your own logs are also a huge inspiration. I'm sure you are going to kick butt at Tempe.

I did your killer workout tonight (3 miles bike, .5 mile run at 80% RPE - although I read the instructions wrong and only did .25 miles on the runs) and thought I would put in 3-4 sets. I quit after two! Next week, I will do three. The week after that, I will do four.

And then I got in the pool to try playing with my stroke a little bit. I read a post of yours from another thread that suggests breathing by pressing your shoulder to your ear and turning your head up rather than rotating the entire body. Are there any drills for practicing that? It's a lot harder than it sounds!

ETA - I didn't realize BT censored the word @$$... Oops.

Edited by trysprintolympic 2009-04-14 9:09 PM

X3!!!

Never in my wildest dreams did I think that I could work out consistently.  I've tried in the past and have failed pretty miserably.  Spent who knows how many $100+ in initiation fees at the YMCA over and over and probably over again.  

Since joining here, I've got some direction on what I need to do to go from couch to tri, I've got an awesome training group that will keep me motivated.  I didn't realize it until I logged in my swim workout tonight, I've worked out for 6 days straight. 

It's a little bit of a hard image, because you tend to think of "up" as towards the top of your head as when you are standing up, rather than "up" towards the sky when you are horizontal in a pool. (unless you are swimming in a vertical position, in which case we have bigger problems )

TI advocates turning the entire upper body as one unit, as if you were on a bbq skewer. This isn't bad, but with slightly less roll, and then turning your chin towards your shoulder you can create a "pocket" to breath in. The shoulder to the ear is a way to express the last couple inches of reach.

Sit up straight. Raise your hand over your head. Now, lift your shoulder an inch or two, and move that same shoulder forward an inch or two. As you do that, let your other shoulder move back. Your upper torso should be turned slightly now (You'll feel some tension in your hips because your lower body isn't moving like it should). Now from this position, turn your head towards the "back" shoulder and tuck your chin slightly. That's the breathing position you want to work towards in the water.

John