Southwestmba's group-Full (Page 4)

Hi everyone.

Nate: Listen to Marsha when it comes to swimming. She is very wise (Not to mention a few days ago did 5 back to back event at a swim meet before running off to coach her team)

Ony: Which area are you most concerned with for building up your speed. In the pool, you can significantly improve your speed by getting your form dialed in. Good form lets you go faster with less effort which sets you up well for the next two legs. For the bike, there really is no shortcut other than time in the saddle. Building a solid base and getting your legs used to pushing a solid tempo for a long stretch it a key. Once you build the base, working in hill rides for strength and tempo rides/intervals will help and sometimes getting in over your head and riding with a group of roadies who are much better than you can really help push yourself (even if you are just trying to hold on 5 minutes longer than the last ride before they drop you, it is a good way to measure your progress and then one day they aren't able to drop you and that really feels good). For running, again a solid base is the key for starters but for begineer's I don't reccommend track work. But I do recommend tempo run (warm up run 1-2 miles and then run the next segment at your goal pace then cooldown), fartlicks where you do short quick bursts of speed(1-2 min for starters and then recover for 5 min and repeat over and over. Also the treadmill actually helps since you can pick a pace and you have no choice but to maintain that pace (or fall off) so it does help train your body and allows you to slowly build up the pace as you get used to it.

Hope that helps.

Andy

I need to improve in all three areas, but the two I am most concerned with are bike and run, in that order. 

At my first triathlon, during the bike portion, I felt like I was giving it all I got, mashing like crazy and was still getting lapped, like I was walking.  I resolved that something about my technique / equipment wasn't right there, and unfortunately, biking resources are not as prevalent as for the other two segments online for me to determine what.  Run I need to build my base, as I feel my mind is racing around the track, but my body is saying, "Say What?"   Swimming is coming along great, I just have to gain confidence in OWS.  I am not fast, but everytime I hit the pool, I can see the improvements.  I don't see the improvements as readily in the other two segments, and feel like I have to work twice as hard for less return. 

I will try your suggestions, esp. fartlek for run, and interval/tempo/group for bike.

Thanks!  O

Edited by BiafraGirl 2010-01-20 8:42 AM

Ony, just to piggyback on some of Andy's great advice.....
Try to find some other endurance athletes to ride/run with.  I know that I do much better if I have someone distracting me and or pushing me to go faster or go further.  Our minds have a crazy habit of holding us back.  The more we practice and push ourselves to the next level, the more likely we will be able to push into that zone during a race (because you've been there, done that).
I'm new to the sport of triathlon, but I do have the mind of a competitor, which can get in the way sometimes when I go out too hard/fast.  But the more experience I gain, the better understanding I have of what my body will tolerate.  So I guess what I'm getting at is just keep "doing".  You will be amazed at what you can accomplish by getting to know yourself.

To everyone:  Does anyone have any recommendations for a watch/HR monitor/GPS/Cadence sensor.
Currently I am training without any form of monitoring system and I have a feeling that I need to keep better track of myself during training and racing.  I know Garmin just put out a watch for all 3 sports but is $400.  YIKES!!  Any other suggestions? 
~Marsha

Just ries a video "spinervals 23.0". Great workout, so if you like working out at home and have a trainer I recomend this series. Didnt have to watch my watch, just listen to the guy.

Joining a tri club is a great way to get the expirence without doing races. There is so much knowledge in those clubs, you just have to ask. I recieved alot of super advice for race days, training and nutrition.

Ony: I did my first 7 tri on a Target special Mountain Bike and I think I can relate to the feeling that you are mashing but people are passing you that look like they aren't even breaking a sweat. The equipment does make a difference and will buy you some free speed. You don't nesseccarily need a $7k Carbon FIber tri machine but upgrading to a road bike that fits well will buy you 2-3 mph. Clipless pedals also help as you are using the full pedal stroke to power along. A hybrid with fat tires has alot more rolling resistance and puts you at poor geometery so you do put alot of extra energy and it saps your strength for the run. A properly fit road bike will make alot of difference. Look on Craig's list, eBay, or your local bike shop and you can find some pretty good deals.

The bike trainer is also a good tool. Biking on city streets forces you to do alot of starting and stopping, riding on the trainer lets you do a more consistant ride for a longer stretch, which allows you to get a more efficient workout.

ANdy

Spinervals are great products and there are some brutal workouts. I met Coach Troy at Eagleman (Troy won Eagleman several times in his prime) and he is really cool and a ball of energy. They have virtual rides for Lake Placid with coach Troy and that is a great ride.

For Marsha: I have a Timex GPS/HRM Body link system. It is pretty good and isn't quite as expensive as a Garmin, but if you are a Data Junkie, a Garmin lets you do so much more with the info. You can create elevation profiles, overlap your HR data, power data (if you have a power tap) and cadence, as well as speed, distance, etc. and have it spit out the info for the entire ride. And it works well on bike or run and is water resistant (HRM data trend to be pretty erratic in the water).

Trakkers is testing a similar product to the garmin which also lets friend and family track your position real time. The product is still in beta testing phase but should be available later this year. Disclaimer I am part of Team Trakkers and am helping to test the product, which I think is going to be great but I might be a bit biased. For more info I have a link to their site in my sig line

One of the other perks of being on Team Trakkers is the parent company puts on the Revolution 3 Triathlon Series. This year there are three races in Knoxville TN in May (Olympic and HIM), Middleton CT in June (Olympic and HIM) and in Cedar Point, OH (HIM and Full Iron Distance). If anyone is interested in doing any of these race I have a discount code to save you some $. If you or any of your friends are interested in doing in the events, let me know. Again the link to the Rev 3 web site is also in my sig line (They also have a sponsor window on BT)

Andy

Marsha:
Thanks for the great ideas during winter season.  We always need new ideas to keep at it!

Ony:
Welcome!  This is a great group of positive folks who encourage and inspire!

Anyone interested in Boot Camps but hesitant to give them a try, I want to put a good plug in for them.  This is my second session (last one was only 4 weeks,  this one is 10).  It is a great workout, challenging and you get tons of new strength training ideas.  My only drawback is that most of the people in my particular class are training for a marathon (poor things, they don't know how fun Tri's are!).  So they seem to complain a lot about any strength training.  But, blocking out the negative is a great mental workout!!!  My instructor is also a nutritionalist so we get lots of good info on how to properly fuel our bodies.  I'd encourage you to give it a try if you are at all interested!

Keep moving!
Lea

Work and lots of travel has kept me a little quiet recently folks, so apologies...

But last night I attended my first kettlebells class, so thought I'd share some thoughts for those that havent done it before. It is run by 2 chiropractors who also specialise in sports injuries and conditioning. It was a fairly small class with a very mixed group, ranging from obese to fairly fit people. We didnt work especially hard or fast paced, which I think could be improved as I get a little more confident with the movements, but I can feel it this morning in my shoulders, hamstrings and lower back - in a positive way and not in the typical muscle areas I feel after a good weights session.

So what is KB training all about? We did a good warm up and then picked up the KB's. The core movement is a swing, where you use your core muscles to 'fire' the KB from between your legs to about shoulder level, and control it back down the swing as well. Sounds easy being a swing, but do it for a couple of minutes and its a great workout by itself. You get up quite a sweat as well as really working that core area. There are other key movements including snatches, cleans and 1 arm versions of all the movements - check out You Tube for loads of good examples of these movements. We added lots of core exercises that didnt use any weights as well. I was quite surprised that we worked up quite a sweat without seeming to work all that hard - certainly nothing like as hard as a typical circuit training class. I really enjoyed it.

A couple of final points. There is more technique involved than a typical weights or circuits session, but having said that it was pretty quick and easy to pick up when given decent instruction. I would strongly suggest people attend a class or get some good instruction before embarking on a programme at home for example. I am pretty sold on it as a good solution for all-body conditioning and will be getting a KB or 2 so I can use it a couple of times a week. Recommended for those that want to do a little more than just S/B/R and especially if you are not really a gym rat.

I second the suggestiong on KB training.
I use CROSSFIT for my strength training and KettleBells are incorporated in the workouts frequently.  Great for core strength and stability (what we need for all 3 sports).

Andy, I can't decide about the whole GPS thing.  Maybe I'll just get a polar heart rate monitor and start there.  I'm more of a simplest when it comes to gadgets anyway.

Have a great weekend everyone.  We are supposed to be near 40 degrees, so long run here I come!!!!

Marsha: The Polar is a really good product and it interfaces with your Computrainer as well.

Everyone: One of the areas that alot of triathletes tend to have a really hard time with is taking it easy. I strongly believe in periodization ie doing 2-3 weeks on and then taking an easy week (cutting back the volume 30-40%). Those easy weeks are one of the keys to improving and getting stronger/ faster. Your body is an incredible machine. It can adapt to many things, but this can also be a problem and is what causes us to plateau. For example if I were to run 6 miles each day at 9 min miles, overtime my body would adapt to this routine and become more efficient at running 9 min miles for 6 miles. I could do it with less effort and burn fewer calories along the way, but I would see little improvement in my speed (other than the impact of improving my base). In order to improve your perfromance you must stress your muscles in a variaty of different ways(Hills/Intervals/varied tempos and resistance levels) (something crossfit does very well, challenging alot of different muscle groups in different ways each workout) and then you must give your body a chance to recover. Recovery is a key to getting stronger. Even during heavy volume weeks a large % of my runs and rides will be recovery efforts (ie Zone 1 or 2 (out of 5) tops.)

A problem that many beginneers and Type A personalities run into is that they work too hard on those easy days and easy weeks. For those who do HR training, Zones 3 should be an area you should try and stay out of, but a large number of folks will do most of their recovery runs/bikes in zone 3. This is not good, you are not allowing your muscles ample time to repair themselves and get stronger and are increasing the risk of injury or burnout via overtraining. It can be really hard to reign yourself in on those easy days and week, but when you do you will start to notice each cycle you are getting stronger.

For those of you who are trying to figure out your HR zones, there is a feature in the logs that will help you calculate you zones using serveral differnt methods. If you want reaaly accurate numbers you should do a Lactate Threshold test (for the record I never have), but thumbrules such as 220-age for max HR will get you in the ballpark (Yes it is not the most accurate method, but it is the simplist;
Zone 1 50%-60% (of max HR), Zone 2 60-70%, Zone 3 70-80%, Zone 4 80-90%, and Zone 5 90-100%) Now by that formula my max should be 180 bpm and I know I will go higher (hard sprint set I have hit 192), so you can adjust the max figure some. But if you are one of those folks who go too hard on the easy days this will help you see that.

Ony: How did you set up your HR zones? Both Nate and I took a look at them in your logs and they seem a bit high, particullarly in the redline zone.

Edited by southwestmba 2010-01-22 10:30 PM

To get my zones, I utilized two tests, subMax step test and subMax sit test, and took the average of the two.  These tests were suggested by the manual of the Timex Ironman HR Watch I am using, to get truer individualized zones.  My resting HR = 56.

To tell you the truth I was quite shocked when I saw the results for my heart rate zones.  Shocked to the point that I used to both my HR watch and the HR monitor on the gym equipment to make sure that the readings were correct -- they were the same. Furthermore, I did some online research to see if my high zones were realistic. All I uncovered was that the formulas commonly used are determined from an average of results and may not necessarily give accurate individualized zones; that everyone has a unique bpm signature, sort of like a fingerprint.  I wanted to do an LT  test to make sure what I was seeing was indeed was correct, but my body was not in a condition to do the test at the time.  I decided to use the HR zones per the test results, listen to my body as I exercise, and hope to God that I don't keel over from over-exertion using the HR zone guides.  So far still alive and kicking (fingers crossed). 

The higher HR zone did on one hand explain why it seemed so easy for me to overshoot heart rate zones using the formula method.  In the past, my perceived physical exertion of 5, on a scale of 1 (low) to 10 (high), would register as an 8 in terms of HR zone. 

On another note, I tried your suggestion today, regarding running at my intended pace, fartleks.  So at the start of each of the 4 min fast segment of my Podrunner intervals, I ran half the track at the desired pace, then settled into the regular Podrunner pace.  It was great, in fact it made my run today more interesting and enjoyable. I hung in there for the complete run time and had energy to spare.  My body / breathing adjusted and improved to the faster pace at each new segment, and towards the end, my mind had already tracked out how using this method would help me reach my goal for the race, in fact I want to apply this is some shape and form to swim and bike as well.  Will let you know how things turn out from week to week.

As always, please share your thoughts, I do not want to injure myself on the path to better health  and fitness. 

Ony

P.S.:  After answering your question, I researched some more, (High heart rate) and I will at least make a point to discuss it with my doctor during my next visit.  Either way, proper exercise, nutrition (uggh) and rest, seem to be the right direction.

Edited by BiafraGirl 2010-01-23 7:55 PM

I have tried a variety of 'home' HR zone tests and the one thing they all had in common was how LOW my HR needed to be to develop aerobic endurance - or 'easy' day pace. So low in fact that half the time it seemed like I had to walk to keep in the zone... Over time however I quickly developed and have seen HUGE gains in aerobic fitness levels and more recently, speed as well, by forcing myself to stay in those zones.

On 1 Sept last year I hadnt run for 3-4 years, yet 2 weeks ago I ran 10 miles in heavy snow, and finished feeling like I could run 5 more. My progress has been steady and constant, with no injury issues and without over-training, especially as i was swimming and cycling a lot in that time as well. My speed is increasing slightly now as well. ALL that work was done at my AE (low) HR zone, using a monitor every run, and only the last 2-3 weeks when I've been forced indoors onto a treadmill have I done some interval sessions to reduce boredom and experiment with increasing intensity to push fat burning further. Training at this pace wont get me a <4hr marathon time but it has had an incredible impact on my health and fitness.

My plan is to spend 2010 training at the same level, and to try and get my cycling HR into these zones as much as possible as well, so I can build a huge aerobic engine that can be tuned to add speed in the coming years. Its hard not to think about adding intensity to try and finish this years events as fast as possible, but having a longer term goal and focus really helps. I also look forward to taking 30+ mins off my half marathon PB in 2011 :D

I was reflecting on Andy's post above while out for a bike ride today - the first in ages thanks to the weather...and was also thinking about goals for every workout you do.

I hadnt cycled for 3 weeks, had been doing a fair bit of other stuff and was planning a long run tomorrow. I couldnt wait to head out the door today when it was obvious it wasnt going to rain. After an hour I had a choice as I reached a junction that leads to either a fairly quick ride home or another 45-60 mins distance. I was really tempted to go the long way and get some miles in, but I remembered my goal - an EASY AE ride. I had been working hard NOT to work hard on the ride, and keep my HR down as much as I could on the hills etc. It meant I took the short ride option and ended up achieving my goal of an easy AE ride that blew away the cobwebs yet didnt work me so hard that my long run would be affected tomorrow.

I guess what I was reminded of was the importance of having a clearly defined goal for every workout before you head out the door. It might help you work harder when you need to and just as importantly take it easy as Andy's post mentions. 

I second that as well. Also having your workout goal for that day inline with your weekly goal which is inline with your overall goals.
Let me be your example of someone who has a very hard time staying in my heart rate zones. During my training last year, a month before the big race I blew my IT bands in both legs. This was due to over training ie... alot of zone 4 runs where they should have been in zone 3 or lower. It made for a long marathon as I knew the IT bands wouldnt last long. I am still having problems with them as well.
I still have a hard time running slow....
I just printed off my zones now and placed them next to the treadmill so I can see them every workout.

Damon

I think you hit my point on the head. If you don't have a goal or purpose for each session in mind you tend to work too hard on the easy days and too easy on the hard days. That said I always try and leave enough "slop" in my plans for the week, to take advantage of an opportunity (ie hey its 70F on New Year Day in 2007, I went and did an long ride with a group I knew was going to be hard on a planned day off) or being able to shuffle things around if life gets in the way and you get a "forced easy day."

But most of all have fun and enjoy the ride. Improving is fun, but running through a foot of snow is surprisingly fun as well.

Andy

Just curious, which zones did you end up to train with?  Was it the home HR tests, a different formula with high HR zones or . . . ?   I noticed that over last week's workout, my max HR went down by 6 bpm, in the running segment, while my running felt strong so I am wondering if you experienced the same in your fitness progress.

--

I agree with the having certain goals for each workout.  I feel that I have yet to tap into my potential and by establishing better training metrics, I was only putting in the time/distance before,  I hope to improve w/o adversely increasing my exposure to injury.

Everyone: Since we have dived headlong into this HR thing, used some of the resourses on this site and found the Below Lactate Threshold (LT) test and how to convert the LTHR to Training HR zones. This is from JorgeM one of the coaches here on BT. I provided links for both the HR LT test and the 5 and 20 min Functional Power Threshold Tests (FTP).
Obviously these levels would be much more accurate that the Age Adjusted method I talked about earlier. But as Damon said earlier, when you first start the using HR zones it is eye openning to see how much you have to reign yourself. But per my original point, if you are doing all of your workout at too high a level your body doesn't get a chance to repair and strengthen itself (BTW this is the big draw for steroids and other perfromance enhancing drugs they allow the body to short circuit this processt and recover much faster, so you can workout harder sooner. However, you also increase the risk of having very important body parts shiveling up and falling off, and other minor side effect like cancer and death).

But trainging properly and using the HR zones as a guide certainly can help you train more efficienctly and see the performance improvements we love to see and help us avoid injury.

http://jorgepbmcoaching.blogspot.com/2008/11/30-min-time-trial-test...

http://jorgepbmcoaching.blogspot.com/2008/11/20-min-time-trial-powe...

http://jorgepbmcoaching.blogspot.com/2008/11/5-min-time-trial-power...

http://jorgepbmcoaching.blogspot.com/2008/11/winter-cycling-plan-tr...

I have tried various tests to find a maximum achievable HR rate while running and then applying various formula to find the zones. I have also read so much about the issues of using HR %'s etc that I have simply settled on a 'zone' of about 140-147 as my ideal AE (aerobic endurance) zone. This means that as long I'm keeping in the high 130's or 140's I feel comfortable I'm not pushing too hard. I try and apply the same numbers to cycling, but living in a hilly area its really hard to keep in those zones on the bike, and my results are much more mixed. Yesterday I took it pretty easy and recorded an av HR of 146, which I think is about my lowest recorded average for a local ride.

I havent yet worked on LT tests etc and this year I need to do more work to identify appropriate HR zones for more intense sessions. I have found a local sports testing lab and am tempted to go and do a battery of tests, but the cost is quite a lot really, so I'm not sure of the benefits at this stage...

time to blow my own trumpet today...

I ran only my 2nd 10 miler today, all by HR, and took 15 mins off the time of my last 10 mile session, with very little extra effort involved. ALL since this group started - thanks guys!

Seriously though, I felt great at 8 miles so went for it and had a pretty fast last 2 miles, so all the time in my low and easy HR zone over the last 4 months seems to be really paying off. I have read so many times that you should "train at the pace you want to race at" and lots of people against the ethos of training at the lower AE zones, but my experience this last 5 months is the exact opposite. I'd rather suggest you train at the pace that best allows your body to develop and that in turn will lead to the ability to go faster as well as longer. I had faith when I started that it would work for me and its now paying off on my stopwatch!

^5 (high five) on knocking of a whopping 15 mins.  That is grrrrreeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaaaaaaat!

- Ony

GREAT JOB on the 10 miler!!!  I'm a bit envious.

Confession time:
  I am slowly realizing through this forum, books, magazines, other triathletes....that there's something to all this HR training, periodization and recovery days.  I think I read somewhere that all this stuff was hogwash, so I continued on my merry way through overtraining.  My intention was to make "great strides" during my off season if I just kept pushing EVERYDAY.  Excercise feels good to my brain and my body and I'm an absolute grouch if I don't get something in.  I know, I know, get over it.  I made incredible strides throughout my first season and for some insane reason I've been expecting to keep up that pace.  Instead I've found a plataeu. 

So I ordered a Polar HRM yesterday, I slept in this morning and I'm following my coaches plan without questioning it.  Can't wait to start figuring out what my zones are.  You all have inspired me to take more responsiblity for training correctly and effectively.

The next step is to figure out how to think about nutrition.  I've always been fairly lean and have never really thought about what I put in my mouth (other than during pregnancy).  Diet is a 4 letter word in our house.  Rather, we buy nutritious whole foods and encourage healthy eating on a daily basis.  I've read "Nutrition Periodization for the Endurance Athlete" and am getting into "Sports Nutrition for Endurance Athletes" (as recommended by my coach).  I have a basic understanding of nutrition periodization and the variety of foods containing protein, carbs, fat, etc.  I'm still not sure how to put it all together.  I need a cookbook that has a chapter for pre-training foods, post-training foods and all based on calories expended.  Is that too much to ask?  The kitchen is not my friend and I'm not really very excited about figuring it all out myself.  Any suggestions?

I must sound like a mess.  But I'm an excited mess!!!  I am constantly reminding myself that I didn't learn how to walk in a day.  This all takes time to figure out.  PATIENCE my friend PATIENCE.

4 mile Fartlek run today  WOO-HOO!!

This is what I love about triathlons....Im always learning something new...theres so much to learn...running, biking, swimming, (+all three together), nutrition, injurys and resting. Each category we could spend alot of time discussing, even after doing the ironman Im still learnig new things about my body and what I can and cant do.

I've been thinking alot about nutrition also.  I feel like I should be losing more weight than I have been.  I've generally watch what I eat, but I want to get a better/more in-depth look at what I'm doing, so I'm going back to logging my food.  I have previously kept food logs in a notebook that I could carry with me, but I have been looking at  going online with my info.  I've looked at nutritiondata.com and at he log on BT, but does anyone have any experience with these or other sites?

I'm working with a nutritionist at my YMCA.  She has me using DailyPlate which is put out by Livestrong.com.  It's free.  Just had to give them my email address.  I hope it could work for your nutrition needs, too.

Lea

sounds like this group, and forum, is doing exactly want it was designed for - stimulating great sharing, learning and ideas.

I have now lost 31lbs since 1 Sept last year, and gone from 201 to 170lbs, as a 6' male. This was also the restart of all my tri training, but has been very much driven through diet as well. I am similar to what has been said above, loving healthy foods but simply eating too much and snacking along the way as well. Probably the single biggest thing I did was to get back onto my low GI lifestyle, which worked for me for years but gradually slipped. We ditched pasta, rice & potatoes from 90% of our meals and simply replaced them with LOADS of fruit and veg in every meal. Nothing too fancy, but I simply eat more fresh veg than I have ever eaten in my life, and focues on as much fresh produce as I could. I still eat loads and have plenty of energy for my workouts but the weight has gradually slipped off as I have got fitter. 1-2lbs a week is typical most weeks and its been fat that has seen inches off my waist, chest, thighs and love handles. I have read on here so many times that lower carb diets are incompatible with training, but I have had no issues, as long as I pack in loads of fruit and veg as I go along. As every oz of fruit and veg is also packed with minerals and vitamins I also believe I am getting incredible quantities of nutrients without the need to supplement with anything. How many vitamins are in 4oz of pasta compared to a big plate of broccoli, carrots and spinach?

Best of all it has easily become a habit again and its so easy to live with that it takes almost no effort. I just need to start increasing my calories a little as I train harder and longer in the spring, as I'm pretty much at my target weight now, but increasing calories is never the hardest thing to do is it :lol:

By the way, I couldnt resist and these bad boys arrived today. A set of 8, 12 & 16kg KB's that will suit my wife and myself for quite some time. Hopefully one of my better investments :D



now, how do I justify those fabulous Assos winter bib tights next....ideas please!



Edited by Bigpikle 2010-01-27 6:21 AM