Religious freedom in Indiana

Member

5452

NC

Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

My point is, then, that you shouldn't get to pick and choose whom you get to discriminate against "on the basis of your religion". If ABC caterer wants to not do business with planned parenthood because it offends their faith, fine, but then they should also refuse to cater any event that violates catholic scripture in any way. Likewise, if the Muslim photographer wants to refuse to shoot the event where he finds some of the art distasteful! fine, but if he shows up at another event and there's prosciutto on the buffet, he's got to pack up and go home, giving a full refund on the way out.

This use of religion as an excuse to deny service to certain people that the business owner finds objectionable is a sham. As I said, if this were really about faith, they'd extend their refusal to anyone who violated their faith in any way (and they'd be out of business in about five minutes). But it's not about faith. It's about bigotry and discrimination. Period. When people in the 40s and 50s were trying to justify segregation, what do you think they used as an excuse? Religion. They said that G-d said that race-mixing was an abomination and a sin, and that the races had to be kept separate as a result.

What if the decision not to cater a certain event wasn't based on religion, but political or moral opinion? Say the caterer chooses not to cater a NRA convention or a pro life rally based on a disagreement with the group or the groups purpose. Essentially, take religion out of it, but still have the same outcome.

Member

465

Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by Renee

Originally posted by jford2309

Maybe all businesses in the future should place a sticker on their window which signifies which faith tor belief system they belong too. This way you know before you walk in what their beliefs are, and no one gets offended!

This discussion isn't just a mental exercise for me. We are opening a salon in the next couple of months. We will be open to all, providing services to all, to include wedding hair/make-up. Our state started issuing marriage licenses to all this year. There are wedding planning sites that cater to gay couples and refer them to gay-friendly services/venues; we will be going through the process of being vetted to make sure our salon is welcoming of all couples. This includes a day-long seminar we must attend.

Part of our interviewing process includes asking our candidates for hire if they would be comfortable with working a same-sex wedding. I dislike even having to ask the question; it's like asking if they are a bigot, in my mind. At the same time, I have to respect that some people will equate providing an up-do with providing marriage sacraments. I'm not there to judge their beliefs; I just want to know they will provide the services we advertise, regardless of the beliefs, religion, race, sexual orientation, or national origin of our customers, Everybody's money is green and I'm happy to take it.

The HR laws are unclear on how we can screen out candidates who refuse to provide these services. I think I will be putting together a policy statement for our new-hire package, something along the lines of our business being a place of public accommodation. I'm not keen on losing an otherwise good hire because they won't provide these services. I can't predict if someone who is opposed would want to cause trouble for my salon, even if they are not the one providing the service. I can see where 1 stupid tweet from an employee could set off an internet dust-up and adversely affect my business. No news crews will be allowed! We don't need to become a target for the various pitchfork factions, thanks to one ill-advised comment.

My partner thinks I over-think things; I probably do. However, I am aware that there is a plethora of pitchforks to be had on the internet and things can go wrong very quickly in this age of type first, think last (or not at all).

* Edited homonym mishap

Congratulations on the pending opening of your salon and best of success. As a business owner myself I understand the challenges and complexities you face working through HR laws and such. If you have any doubt on any question you ask a potential employee, you should run it by your attorney.

Since my business involves clients working with my staff every day, every single one of my proposals I give to clients includes this statement:

Equal Employment Opportunity

It is the policy of Foreside Real Estate Management, Inc. to afford equal opportunity to all qualified employees and applicants for employment regardless of race, national origin, handicap, color, religion, sex, age, sexual orientation or any other artificial barriers, as defined by state and federal law. Employees and applicants for employment will be accorded equal treatment with respect to all terms, conditions, and privileges of employment, including (but not limited to) recruitment, selection, benefits, training, termination, compensation, and opportunities for advancement. This policy applies to all position levels.

Champion

7821

Brooklyn, NY

Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by Goosedog

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

My point is, then, that you shouldn't get to pick and choose whom you get to discriminate against "on the basis of your religion". If ABC caterer wants to not do business with planned parenthood because it offends their faith, fine, but then they should also refuse to cater any event that violates catholic scripture in any way. Likewise, if the Muslim photographer wants to refuse to shoot the event where he finds some of the art distasteful! fine, but if he shows up at another event and there's prosciutto on the buffet, he's got to pack up and go home, giving a full refund on the way out.

This use of religion as an excuse to deny service to certain people that the business owner finds objectionable is a sham. As I said, if this were really about faith, they'd extend their refusal to anyone who violated their faith in any way (and they'd be out of business in about five minutes). But it's not about faith. It's about bigotry and discrimination. Period. When people in the 40s and 50s were trying to justify segregation, what do you think they used as an excuse? Religion. They said that G-d said that race-mixing was an abomination and a sin, and that the races had to be kept separate as a result.

What if the decision not to cater a certain event wasn't based on religion, but political or moral opinion? Say the caterer chooses not to cater a NRA convention or a pro life rally based on a disagreement with the group or the groups purpose. Essentially, take religion out of it, but still have the same outcome.

i guess it depends on what's driving the "moral" opinion, but in general, if a caterer didn't want to cater an NRA convention because he disagreed with their politics, that would be fine. Notwithstanding the efforts of the NRA, gun owners arent a protected class and therefore can't be discriminated against.

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Champion

7821

Brooklyn, NY

Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by jford2309

Maybe all businesses in the future should place a sticker on their window which signifies which faith tor belief system they belong too. This way you know before you walk in what their beliefs are, and no one gets offended!

Sarcasm aside, I think you're on the right track, but why let the bigots off the hook? Make them list publicly, for all to see, just which types of people they refuse to serve. Make them post it in big letters outside their window. i find that most bigots, not unlike cockroaches, tend to scurry away once you shine a light on them.

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Member

465

Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by Jackemy1

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by Jackemy1

Originally posted by chirunner134

Originally posted by Renee

16 states passed their RFRA laws between 1993 and 2010.

Correct me if I am wrong. I thought the difference was either it was only the government that could not put undo pressure on people and business for there religious beliefs for the other states but in Indiana it extended to be government, businesses and people? That and the face that ltgb community is not protected class therefor it applies there and not other places?

I thought that this law was pretty much anti gay but I guess it means I can not sue you for not carrying something heavy on the sabbath if your a Jew for instance. Trying to find something other than wedding cakes that could be done with the law.

Should a Catholic caterer be forced by law to do a Planned Parenthood holiday party?
How about Muslim photographer hired to photograph an art exhibit opening depicting sacrilegious pieces of Mohammed?

I think this is where the rub is: "ABC Caterer", is a brick and mortar business, and, as such, in my opinion, doesn't get to exercise a religion. Maybe the owner of ABC Caterer is a devout catholic who doesn't want to do the party, but, as I said before, if you open a business, you have to abide by the laws that say you have to serve everyone.

So one must give up their faith to earn a living? Or more correctly, if a business owner doesn't share your faith or the popular faith of the times then it is your position that they don't have a right to a living

I am of the opinion that the position of a Catholic caterer who would gladly serve someone who worked at Planned Parenthood in their restaurant but refrain from catering a holiday party at Planned Parenthood because of what they believe their faith demands of them is less hateful or intolerant than the culture police who tweet "let's burn that family's business to the ground."

http://www.elkharttruth.com/news/schools/2015/04/01/Concord-High-Sc...

My point is, then, that you shouldn't get to pick and choose whom you get to discriminate against "on the basis of your religion". If ABC caterer wants to not do business with planned parenthood because it offends their faith, fine, but then they should also refuse to cater any event that violates catholic scripture in any way. Likewise, if the Muslim photographer wants to refuse to shoot the event where he finds some of the art distasteful! fine, but if he shows up at another event and there's prosciutto on the buffet, he's got to pack up and go home, giving a full refund on the way out.

This use of religion as an excuse to deny service to certain people that the business owner finds objectionable is a sham. As I said, if this were really about faith, they'd extend their refusal to anyone who violated their faith in any way (and they'd be out of business in about five minutes). But it's not about faith. It's about bigotry and discrimination. Period. When people in the 40s and 50s were trying to justify segregation, what do you think they used as an excuse? Religion. They said that G-d said that race-mixing was an abomination and a sin, and that the races had to be kept separate as a result.

Certainly we can use the Nihilist approach towards this subject but that isn't reality as we know it to be. Most Catholics don't eat fish on Friday and liquor stores do survive in Muslim neighborhoods. Saying that you have to be 100% pure or your belief system is BS is something I can't get on board with you.

I don't disagree with you that some folks who oppose gay marriage are ignorant bigots. But some opposition clearly is not. So I question the tactics of the LBGT activist in targeting insignificant mom and pop cake bakers and destroying them as casualties in this cultural war. I mean what the end game here? It is clearly not advancing the cause as Legislature all around the country have felt the need to establish laws to provide balance to the First Amendment.

Now comparing the struggles of the LGBT community of the Ellen DeGeneres America of today to African--American struggle of the Jim Crow 60's is a tough argument to support and I don't think endears the issues of the LBGT community to the African-American Community (does Al Sharpton march in gay pride parades?)

In the 60's, there was absolutely a compelling public interest reason to barring racial discrimination as centuries of systematic, government enforced discrimination against racial minorities created a clear societal need for civic equality. An African-American born in 1990 starts from a position of disadvantage due to a legacy of government sponsored racism and racist laws. A gay person born at the same time is not starting at the same point of disadvantage.

Certainly the Indiana Law allows for compelling reasons to restrict religious freedom so the law would be in agreement with your last statement that using religion to justify segregation doesn't fly. And I do think the same will hold with serving an LGBT couple at a lunch counter. The religious argument there is dubious at best.

Member

5452

NC

Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

i guess it depends on what's driving the "moral" opinion, but in general, if a caterer didn't want to cater an NRA convention because he disagreed with their politics, that would be fine. Notwithstanding the efforts of the NRA, gun owners arent a protected class and therefore can't be discriminated against.

I don't know why it matters what is driving the moral opinion. Would it be impermissible discrimination if the caterer happily provided catering to LGBT customers, except for same-sex weddings?

Champion

7821

Brooklyn, NY

Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by Goosedog

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

i guess it depends on what's driving the "moral" opinion, but in general, if a caterer didn't want to cater an NRA convention because he disagreed with their politics, that would be fine. Notwithstanding the efforts of the NRA, gun owners arent a protected class and therefore can't be discriminated against.

I don't know why it matters what is driving the moral opinion. Would it be impermissible discrimination if the caterer happily provided catering to LGBT customers, except for same-sex weddings?

Try it this way and see if you can answer your own question: "Would it be impermissible discrimination if the caterer happily provided catering to Jewish customers, except for Jewish weddings?"

My Race Log

Member

5452

NC

Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by Goosedog

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

i guess it depends on what's driving the "moral" opinion, but in general, if a caterer didn't want to cater an NRA convention because he disagreed with their politics, that would be fine. Notwithstanding the efforts of the NRA, gun owners arent a protected class and therefore can't be discriminated against.

I don't know why it matters what is driving the moral opinion. Would it be impermissible discrimination if the caterer happily provided catering to LGBT customers, except for same-sex weddings?

Try it this way and see if you can answer your own question: "Would it be impermissible discrimination if the caterer happily provided catering to Jewish customers, except for Jewish weddings?"

I don't think so. I really don't have a problem with a business that isn't a public accommodation refusing to provide services to any person/group for any reason. Do you? We aren't talking about a unique or limited resource like real property. I sort of get that there should be a flaw in my thought, but I don't really see it yet. How does this play out practically? I think there is a vast difference between a public restaurant refusing to serve [whatever group] and a caterer refusing to cater to [whatever group].

Member

5452

NC

Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Let me try a slightly different one. Young sports agent in Miami decides to represent baseball players from Cuba exclusively. Kid from Iowa calls her up asking for representation and she declines. Actionable?

Extreme Veteran

3025

Maryland

Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

I have a question. they don't want to do gay weddings because in the bible somewhere it says that men should not lay together or something.

Then can they do any wedding that isn't their branch of Christianity?

How come they can do a jewish wedding, the jews don't accept Jesus!

How can they do a muslim wedding, the Muslims believe that Jesus wasn't the son of God and there is a prophet that followed him!

it seems very picky and choosy; a façade for discrimination.

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Champion

6993

Chicago, Illinois

Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by dmiller5

I have a question. they don't want to do gay weddings because in the bible somewhere it says that men should not lay together or something.

Then can they do any wedding that isn't their branch of Christianity?

How come they can do a jewish wedding, the jews don't accept Jesus!

How can they do a muslim wedding, the Muslims believe that Jesus wasn't the son of God and there is a prophet that followed him!

it seems very picky and choosy; a façade for discrimination.

Do other faiths have have weddings in churches? never heard of that. Maybe non for profits want to make money more than for profit companies?

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Pro

9391

Omaha, NE

Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by Goosedog

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn My point is, then, that you shouldn't get to pick and choose whom you get to discriminate against "on the basis of your religion". If ABC caterer wants to not do business with planned parenthood because it offends their faith, fine, but then they should also refuse to cater any event that violates catholic scripture in any way. Likewise, if the Muslim photographer wants to refuse to shoot the event where he finds some of the art distasteful! fine, but if he shows up at another event and there's prosciutto on the buffet, he's got to pack up and go home, giving a full refund on the way out. This use of religion as an excuse to deny service to certain people that the business owner finds objectionable is a sham. As I said, if this were really about faith, they'd extend their refusal to anyone who violated their faith in any way (and they'd be out of business in about five minutes). But it's not about faith. It's about bigotry and discrimination. Period. When people in the 40s and 50s were trying to justify segregation, what do you think they used as an excuse? Religion. They said that G-d said that race-mixing was an abomination and a sin, and that the races had to be kept separate as a result.

What if the decision not to cater a certain event wasn't based on religion, but political or moral opinion? Say the caterer chooses not to cater a NRA convention or a pro life rally based on a disagreement with the group or the groups purpose. Essentially, take religion out of it, but still have the same outcome.

i guess it depends on what's driving the "moral" opinion, but in general, if a caterer didn't want to cater an NRA convention because he disagreed with their politics, that would be fine. Notwithstanding the efforts of the NRA, gun owners arent a protected class and therefore can't be discriminated against.

What if the gun owner is a gay minority female that's over 40? hehe

This is where my brain hurts when thinking about this whole discussion. What you typed above is almost exactly what I said earlier about people being able to refuse to serve whomever they choose as long as they're not a protected class. In the case of the gay community they are not a legally protected class in many parts of the country (right or wrong). So, based on your statement if they're not a protected class then they don't have to be served.

Obviously there is a huge push towards changing the laws and there's a lot of support for it, but I'm still trying to understand the difference (legally speaking) the way things are right now.

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Champion

7821

Brooklyn, NY

Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by Goosedog

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by Goosedog

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

i guess it depends on what's driving the "moral" opinion, but in general, if a caterer didn't want to cater an NRA convention because he disagreed with their politics, that would be fine. Notwithstanding the efforts of the NRA, gun owners arent a protected class and therefore can't be discriminated against.

I don't know why it matters what is driving the moral opinion. Would it be impermissible discrimination if the caterer happily provided catering to LGBT customers, except for same-sex weddings?

Try it this way and see if you can answer your own question: "Would it be impermissible discrimination if the caterer happily provided catering to Jewish customers, except for Jewish weddings?"

I don't think so. I really don't have a problem with a business that isn't a public accommodation refusing to provide services to any person/group for any reason. Do you? We aren't talking about a unique or limited resource like real property. I sort of get that there should be a flaw in my thought, but I don't really see it yet. How does this play out practically? I think there is a vast difference between a public restaurant refusing to serve [whatever group] and a caterer refusing to cater to [whatever group].

I think the flaw in your thinking goes like this: "Discrimination is illegal." Whether or not you feel that the anti discrimination laws that were passed in the 60's are passé or intrusive or whatever is really immaterial. Federal law says that you can't refuse to serve a person just because you don't like his race or religion or whatever.

I kind of can't believe we're having this discussion. I guess maybe I'm older than you are and you don't know the kind of divisive, violent upheaval that this country went through when segregation was outlawed and the civil rights laws were passed. Is that the country you want back?

I don't quite see the distinction between a restaurant asking a black family to leave and a caterer refusing to cater a black wedding.

My Race Log

Member

465

Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by dmiller5

I have a question. they don't want to do gay weddings because in the bible somewhere it says that men should not lay together or something.

Then can they do any wedding that isn't their branch of Christianity?

How come they can do a jewish wedding, the jews don't accept Jesus!

How can they do a muslim wedding, the Muslims believe that Jesus wasn't the son of God and there is a prophet that followed him!

it seems very picky and choosy; a façade for discrimination.

I think the practicality of someone being hire to work a wedding isn't any different than that a temporary employee.

However wrongheaded and disgusting it is, there no law that says a white guy must take a job at a black owned business. A Jewish sandwich maker can't be forces to work at a non-Kosher deli. Neither the black owned business or the non-Kosher deli are injured as a result of the discrimination as there are plenty of other qualified applicants out who would do the job.

The cake maker decision is not to be a temporarily employed by a gay wedding does not infringe on the rights to get married nor does it qualify, in my opinion, as a burden on the gay couple to access to public accommodations as there are plenty of people who a willing to take their money to work the wedding. While I believe the cake maker's belief as to the demands of his religion requires of him are misguided and wrong, I certainly support his right to make that decision. I am personally concern about the direction of American society with the rise of mob rule to shout down, shame and destroy individuals who don't hold popular beliefs and the constant call to use the force of the State to quiet them....seems very Facist to me.

Champion

7821

Brooklyn, NY

Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by Jackemy1

Originally posted by dmiller5

I have a question. they don't want to do gay weddings because in the bible somewhere it says that men should not lay together or something.

Then can they do any wedding that isn't their branch of Christianity?

How come they can do a jewish wedding, the jews don't accept Jesus!

How can they do a muslim wedding, the Muslims believe that Jesus wasn't the son of God and there is a prophet that followed him!

it seems very picky and choosy; a façade for discrimination.

I think the practicality of someone being hire to work a wedding isn't any different than that a temporary employee.

However wrongheaded and disgusting it is, there no law that says a white guy must take a job at a black owned business. A Jewish sandwich maker can't be forces to work at a non-Kosher deli. Neither the black owned business or the non-Kosher deli are injured as a result of the discrimination as there are plenty of other qualified applicants out who would do the job.

The cake maker decision is not to be a temporarily employed by a gay wedding does not infringe on the rights to get married nor does it qualify, in my opinion, as a burden on the gay couple to access to public accommodations as there are plenty of people who a willing to take their money to work the wedding. While I believe the cake maker's belief as to the demands of his religion requires of him are misguided and wrong, I certainly support his right to make that decision. I am personally concern about the direction of American society with the rise of mob rule to shout down, shame and destroy individuals who don't hold popular beliefs and the constant call to use the force of the State to quiet them....seems very Facist to me.

The difference, and what made the Indiana law distinct from the other laws to which it was compared is that the temporary employee is an individual. He cannot and should not be compelled to work for any company he doesn't want to work for, whatever the reason. An anti-Semite does not have to work for a Jewish employer, nor does a Yankee fan does not have to work for the Boston Red Sox.
The bakery, or the restaurant, otoh, are not individuals. They are businesses who provide a service to the public. As such, they do not practice a religion, hold political views or root for baseball teams, because they are not people. Even "Jackemy's Bar and Grill" is not Jackemy himself, it is a brick and mortar establishment that bears the name of the owner, but is not the owner. As it is a business, and not an individual, it should not be allowed to discriminate,and is prohibited from doing so, no matter how strongly the owner or employees might wish not to cater to a particular race or religion.

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Pro

9391

Omaha, NE

Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by jmk-brooklyn

Originally posted by Jackemy1

Originally posted by dmiller5

I have a question. they don't want to do gay weddings because in the bible somewhere it says that men should not lay together or something.

Then can they do any wedding that isn't their branch of Christianity?

How come they can do a jewish wedding, the jews don't accept Jesus!

How can they do a muslim wedding, the Muslims believe that Jesus wasn't the son of God and there is a prophet that followed him!

it seems very picky and choosy; a façade for discrimination.

I think the practicality of someone being hire to work a wedding isn't any different than that a temporary employee. However wrongheaded and disgusting it is, there no law that says a white guy must take a job at a black owned business. A Jewish sandwich maker can't be forces to work at a non-Kosher deli. Neither the black owned business or the non-Kosher deli are injured as a result of the discrimination as there are plenty of other qualified applicants out who would do the job. The cake maker decision is not to be a temporarily employed by a gay wedding does not infringe on the rights to get married nor does it qualify, in my opinion, as a burden on the gay couple to access to public accommodations as there are plenty of people who a willing to take their money to work the wedding. While I believe the cake maker's belief as to the demands of his religion requires of him are misguided and wrong, I certainly support his right to make that decision. I am personally concern about the direction of American society with the rise of mob rule to shout down, shame and destroy individuals who don't hold popular beliefs and the constant call to use the force of the State to quiet them....seems very Facist to me.

The difference, and what made the Indiana law distinct from the other laws to which it was compared is that the temporary employee is an individual. He cannot and should not be compelled to work for any company he doesn't want to work for, whatever the reason. An anti-Semite does not have to work for a Jewish employer, nor does a Yankee fan does not have to work for the Boston Red Sox. The bakery, or the restaurant, otoh, are not individuals. They are businesses who provide a service to the public. As such, they do not practice a religion, hold political views or root for baseball teams, because they are not people. Even "Jackemy's Bar and Grill" is not Jackemy himself, it is a brick and mortar establishment that bears the name of the owner, but is not the owner. As it is a business, and not an individual, it should not be allowed to discriminate,and is prohibited from doing so, no matter how strongly the owner or employees might wish not to cater to a particular race or religion.

The weird part of the "they are not people" discussion is that you are correct in that a company is not a person, but the company does employ "people" and is owned by "people" who all do have rights. If you recall the Supreme Court backed the Hobby Lobby position which was a corporation that didn't want to provide contraception due to religious beliefs of the company owners. It's obviously a different discussion, but if the company had no rights then it would have been a slam dunk win the other direction because religious beliefs would not apply.

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Pro

5761

Bartlett, TN

Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

I read an article today that said that the Christian bakery should go ahead and make the cake or whatever but they should also let their client know that every penny they spent would go to a traditional pro-family lobby group. The article goes on to suggest that the caterer go as far as wearing Bible lapels and such...

http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/christians-gays-well-accept-your-business-and-donate-your-money-traditional

Now this is going to the extreme, but I wonder what the backlash would be if this happened?

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Buttercup

14334

Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by jford2309

I read an article today that said that the Christian bakery should go ahead and make the cake or whatever but they should also let their client know that every penny they spent would go to a traditional pro-family lobby group. The article goes on to suggest that the caterer go as far as wearing Bible lapels and such...

http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/christians-gays-well-accept-your-business-and-donate-your-money-traditional

Now this is going to the extreme, but I wonder what the backlash would be if this happened?

That sounds kind of silly. I don't know how many people would be interested in or offended by where the caterer spends their profits (unlikely they'll donate the entire catering bill, since they have expenses to cover).

And, I don't think wearing a cross or Bible lapel will be considered offensive. Many gay couples are Christians.

Pro

15655

Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by jford2309

I read an article today that said that the Christian bakery should go ahead and make the cake or whatever but they should also let their client know that every penny they spent would go to a traditional pro-family lobby group. The article goes on to suggest that the caterer go as far as wearing Bible lapels and such...

http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/christians-gays-well-accept-your-business-and-donate-your-money-traditional

Now this is going to the extreme, but I wonder what the backlash would be if this happened?

I guess I'm never going to understand why life has to be this complicated.......I want no part of it.

You don't want my money? No problem.

You act like an idiot in your business, you don't get my money. No problem.

It all seems pretty simple to me.

Extreme Veteran

3025

Maryland

Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by jford2309

I read an article today that said that the Christian bakery should go ahead and make the cake or whatever but they should also let their client know that every penny they spent would go to a traditional pro-family lobby group. The article goes on to suggest that the caterer go as far as wearing Bible lapels and such...

http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/christians-gays-well-accept-your-business-and-donate-your-money-traditional

Now this is going to the extreme, but I wonder what the backlash would be if this happened?

I guess I'm never going to understand why life has to be this complicated.......I want no part of it.

You don't want my money? No problem.

You act like an idiot in your business, you don't get my money. No problem.

It all seems pretty simple to me.

very easy to say and do when you're the majority.

lets say that you are a gay couple in bum-flip Indiana. There is no where within 200 miles where a cake shop, caterer, whatever will do anything for your wedding because you're gay. What are you supposed to do then? Yeah they don't get your money, but you are such a small minority that they don't feel that impact. Meanwhile, you can't have the wedding you want.

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Extreme Veteran

799

Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by dmiller5
There is no where within 200 miles where a cake shop, caterer, whatever will do anything for your wedding because you're gay. What are you supposed to do then?

Bake your own cake. Better yet, start a bakery that serves that customer base

Originally posted by dmiller5
Meanwhile, you can't have the wedding you want.

Someone is either forced to work somewhere they do not want to, or someone doesn't get the wedding they want. Everybody cannot be happy.

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Deep in the Heart of Texas

Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

If the gays from bum flip Indiana can't handle not getting everything they want, they are going to have a tough time with marriage - at least in my experience.

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Extreme Veteran

3025

Maryland

Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by jmcconne

Originally posted by dmiller5 There is no where within 200 miles where a cake shop, caterer, whatever will do anything for your wedding because you're gay. What are you supposed to do then?

Bake your own cake. Better yet, start a bakery that serves that customer base

Originally posted by dmiller5 Meanwhile, you can't have the wedding you want.

Someone is either forced to work somewhere they do not want to, or someone doesn't get the wedding they want. Everybody cannot be happy.

this is total bullcrap. What are they supposed to do? Start a new business of every type that only serves gay people? That's an ignorant and stupid answer.

If you live in a city of white people, and you're the only black guy, they can't tell you, well just start a burger joint for all the black people. And a cake shop. And a book store. And a ........

If this is what y'all really think is right and fair, then there is no point in this discussion at all. Because you're bigots who will rationalize discrimination. News flash, this ain't the country for you. The country has decided that its high time to treat those of all orientations equally, and its going to happen, just like the civil rights movement before this. And women's rights. And the ending of slavery.

We're all equal, and we all deserve the opportunity and chance to be happy and have a good life. Hiding behind religion to hurt others is not freedom of religion, its freedom to persecute those who don't believe in whichever made up children's story that you think is the correct one.

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Subject: RE: Religious freedom in Indiana

Originally posted by dmiller5

Originally posted by Left Brain

Originally posted by jford2309

I read an article today that said that the Christian bakery should go ahead and make the cake or whatever but they should also let their client know that every penny they spent would go to a traditional pro-family lobby group. The article goes on to suggest that the caterer go as far as wearing Bible lapels and such...

http://www.cnsnews.com/blog/michael-w-chapman/christians-gays-well-accept-your-business-and-donate-your-money-traditional

Now this is going to the extreme, but I wonder what the backlash would be if this happened?

I guess I'm never going to understand why life has to be this complicated.......I want no part of it.

You don't want my money? No problem.

You act like an idiot in your business, you don't get my money. No problem.

It all seems pretty simple to me.

very easy to say and do when you're the majority.

lets say that you are a gay couple in bum-flip Indiana. There is no where within 200 miles where a cake shop, caterer, whatever will do anything for your wedding because you're gay. What are you supposed to do then? Yeah they don't get your money, but you are such a small minority that they don't feel that impact. Meanwhile, you can't have the wedding you want.

Your point is valid.....certainly.

BUT.....this is what I have learned in 55 years:

You can't control what other people do, and you are responsible for your own happiness. I accept that there are just ignorant azzholes in the world, but they don't worry me. I can control me, and my attitudes, my biases, my prejudices, etc.....and I work on it each day, because it's the right thing to accept different views than my own....I have learned that as well.

But..... I don't work on you and your issues...and I don't control you or your issues (the collective, stupid "you")....because that's a fool's game...and it can lead to it's own problems for me if I try to. (I'm afraid I'm not wired to deal with stupidity very well..... I have references )

I'll bake my own forking cake before I let someone who won't bake me one, because of their bigotry, influence my happiness. And I'll bake my own damn cake before I buy one from someone who won't bake one for you because you're gay, or black, or different from me in any way (as long as you aren't hurting others, then all bets are off). Pizz on them.

Edited by Left Brain 2015-04-14 9:25 PM

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