GrooveTime!group - CLOSED!!! (Page 45)

Edited by midlifeinsanity 2010-05-24 7:28 AM

ANNE, M, other women ---


Okay, so I'm supposed to sit here and NOT look at that link?!?

(I'll resist temptation and answer some previous posts instead. Sigh.)

And on the topic of Things Female.....


Is Tracey in Vail now? Was this when her "girls' weekend" was scheduled for?
I hope she brings us back some nice souvenirs.












Edited by stevebradley 2010-01-23 3:27 PM

ANNE -

I haven't forgotten you ----- I'm just scrambling to keep up with you!!

I will look through Marc Exans to see what it is from him that you're following. I'm assuming you're getting that from "Triathlete's Edge", which I have in front of me even as I type. However, if the formula is from something on-line, I'll have to track that down.

As for the 114 next week, and four bike sessions, if you're coming off a spell of not feeling well you might want to trim that back some (90? 100?) and just go with three sessions. How much time have you spent on the bike in the past month, or let's say since the start of December? And tell me again what your toys-of-choice are. Trainer? (Check.) Rollers? (Check?) CompuTrainer? (Not yet?) Spin classes? (??)

Beyond the bike, I see that the run program is in place for you courtesy of Running Room. For the swim, what will you be doing between now and the weekly workouts starting in April?

And 12 weeks back from Muskoka gets you to the beginning of May, right? So there will be some overlap between the 16 week R.R. program and the 12 week BT silver program, which should be fine. You'll have to make some adjustments anyhow, given that the Muskoka run is half again the distance of the oly run that BT will be training you for.

As for how to accommodate a hybrid like Muskoka into a traditional olympic of half-iron training plan, that's not a gimme. The swim works perfectly in a HIM plan, but after that some fudging has to happen. The bike is 55km, as opposed to 40km and 90km for oly and HIM respectively. The run is 15km, as opposed to 10km and 21.1km respectively. Hmmmm.

Given that you are strong and confident on the bike, you can just take an oly program and tweak it some each week -- add some distance here, more intensity there, hills somewhere else. And it wouldn't hurt for you to do over-distance in the bike training.

ARGH! It happened again! Deja vu! I remember this from last week, blabbing about Muskoka and then remembering that you'll be doing 90km on the bike at Peterborough three weeks before! DOH!

Quick u-turn here ---- why not look into a HIM plan that will get you to Peterborough, seeing as how that would set you up perfectly for the swim and bike you'll be doing with the half-iron aquabike? And then for the Muskoka run, you could do one of two things:
(1) follow an olympic run plan, but figure on two hard running weeks after Pboro in order to push up the mileage so it is close to 13/14km
(2) follow the run plan for a HIM, but once the long run of the plan hits 15km, then count back from there to where the run plan should begin. You probably would like the long run to be on the 11th.....which is only a week after Pboro.....which is a bit problematic. But....

Is Pboro really just a race that you are "training through"? If so, then you won't have to taper much for it - maybe not at all. If you are willing to consider Pboro a "C" race -- and are able to actually treat it that way (more or less ) come race day! --- then that will make the peak training for Muskoka much simpler to navigate. At any rate, your week post-Pboro should be rest on Monday and Tuesday, then maybe a short, crisp run on Wednesday, and then aim for your long run on Saturday. (Or if Pboro takes something out of you, then move those runs to Thursday and Sunday.) Alternatively, you could aim for the long run to be the week after Peterborough, but that will depend on how healthy your lower body has been up to that point.

Final question for now: What do you figure will be your goal time for the Muskoka run?







Edited by stevebradley 2010-01-23 4:09 PM

DENISE -

I wouldn't diminish your training, or your goals, by saying "Of course, I'm only doing sprints now....".

We might actually be thinking alike now, as what I'm getting at is that speed sessions make much mor esense to me when my focus is on the shorter stuff. That is, when my goals are half-irons (and my two irons), it just didn't make sense to me to train fast very often. Steve and I have gone through this stuff before, and my perspective is that I'm not looking to do any sustained "high-end" speed during a 1.2 mile swim or a 56 mile bike or a 13.1 mile run. But point me towards a sprint, or to some dgree an oly, then I will look at training with speed because I will fully plan to implement it on race day.

All that is to say that your run speed work and your gut-busting cycling classes make a great deal of sense, given your race goals --- which, re-reading your post, is what I think you were saying all alone!

DENISE -

Please feel free to thwap me upside the head if the following is egregiously unsolicited advice!

For the one-legged drills (you did mention this, didn't you?), there are two approaches you can take.

The first is to do them 20-30 seconds (for starters) each leg, with the focus on making perfect circles. Not only will you feel this happening, but you should also hear it -- you don't want to feel choppiness, or hear any soft clunking (from the chain) or uneven whooshing of air. You might have to play around with gearing so as to find what is most conducive to perfect circles. And you'll almost certainly find that one leg is smoother at this than the other leg. BUt your goal here is to eliminate "Dead spots" from your pedal stroke.*

The second approach involves consciously "pulling up" on your backstroke, with an image of scraping mud of the sole of your shoe. So, at the top of the pedal cycle (12 o'clock) you are pushing your tows to the front, and at the bottom (6 o'clock) you are pulling back and up - the mud-scraping motion.

The first approach is really the best one for single-leg work, while the second can be done single-leg, but is more common with both legs working -- but taking turns with one leg doing about 90% of the work according to the 12 o'clock and 6 o'clock emphases above.

For single-leg stuff I just drape my non-working foot over the side support of the trainer, but lots of people do it with a chair on either side of the bike on which they place the "lazy" foot. For me, though, that seems to set my pelvis at an unnatural angle.

*Don't worry about dead spots -- even professional cyclists do one-legged drills in an attempt to eliminate them! I had been doing them for a few years and felt pretty cocky about not having much of a dead zone any more - until I got a CompuTrainer and saw my pedalling on the SpinScan screens. Jeezum crowdogs!! Talk about dead spots!!

Well.....back to the drawing board, and the one-legged drills, eating himble pie all the way.

I will try to answer some of your questions before asking you more.  

Re Marc Evans, I pretty much followed exactly what he said to do in Chapter 2, step by step to get my training volume and periodization.   Used the periodization interval step-up table on page 35 combined with the table of periodization on page 37.  I actually input his tables into excel which took me a bit of initial effort (but I am an accurate, fast, typist) and built my Program Overview Manager via links to the tables.   I'm pretty good with Excel too.    Once I had it done, it has been easy to update/change each year based on projected races.  

My bike volume for Wks of Dec. 21 - 37.50km; Dec. 28 - 65.00km; Jan 4th - 67.00km; Jan. 11 - 12km; Jan 18 - 45km.  Pretty brutal - sorry to say.      Didn't have my bike set up for trainer - needed to switch cassettes, wheels, chain, etc.  and I kept putting if off. 

My original plan had next week as a recovery week with 61km of cycling km so maybe I should aim for that and not do any more than 80km.    The following week is supposed to be 103 total km with a 30km 'long' ride;  included in that 103 is 10 km of race pace; 3.5km V02; and 2km 'all out'.    I do the V02 and 'all out' using appropriate interval sets.    

The only thing I use is my bike trainer at this time of year.   Computrainer on wish list for next year.   I do have a good mountain bike available for outdoors if we get to the point of no snow.   I will not ride in the snow.    I have cold weather gear. 

For the swim, when I swim 3x per week I swim about 1500-1800 meters per session; one day mostly drills with some sets of 100 and 200's.   One day speed work on my own and one day with coach which is stroke correction and speed work.   If I swim only twice I swim more to get the req'd volume for the week.    My volumes for the next 5 week are:   3,100 (recovery week); 5,100 (1050 long included in the 5100), 5,300 (1650 long) 5,600 (long), then 3,400.   No speed work  or long swims on recovery weeks.    My speed work includes about 1500 each week at race pace; 250 at 5% faster than race pace (he calls it V02) and 150 all out.  

I am going to post this much now and give some thought to your comments on the HIM training.    But I can tell you, YES, I consider Peterborough a "C" race and I didn't have any taper last year so that should be fine.   Last year I took it pretty easy but I would like to put a bit of effort into it this year, but for sure, not trying to win any races.    Just thought it would be good practice for Muskoka.  

Back to you tomorrow.   Have a great night.  

Good Morning Steve,

I checked out the Beginner 20 week HIM Silver program and it seems pretty doable.   Actually looks easier than the interemediate Olympic?   The days are kind of screwy from how I train but if you get the silver membership maybe you could help me move them around without compromising the training effect they are after.    The longest bike is 3 hours but on some of the other plans it is 4.30.   I would be able to ride longer than 3 hours for long rides.  

The run we will have to talk about - their longest run is 2 hours.  My only goal for Muskoka run is to do it.   I have no issues with doing a walk/run combo, if necessary.   Before I hurt my achilles the week before Vancouver in 08, I could run a 6'10" km pace for my tri's with literally, neglible run training.    Last year, as I mentioned, my running was going very well over the winter and ran a 5km just under 6' pace, taking it fairly easy, and a 10km just a tad over 6.1?   The 10km was a walk/run combo.   After racing 4 weekends in a row and doing some overly hard biking the first time out on the road, I started having hip issues and the pelvis would lock up after biking hard in the races, so all I could do last year was 6'45" km pace which was a walk/run combo.   

IF I stay healthy and keep things under control I know I could still run around a 6' pace during a race, which isn't competitive even at my age, but it will get me to where I want to be.  

QUESTION -   I read somewhere that a person should get at least 2-3 three hour easy long rides on the road before starting speed work and hill training.   True?  

The run program I created with Runner's World is a 16 week build to 15 km.    The longest long run is 16km in week 15.    Total weekly volume maxes at 33km in week 15.   I am doing a 10km local race at the end of week 16.   Same one I did last year. 

Thanks for all your help.    It's keeping me motivated.  

Steve B
Thanks for your follow-up. If I gave the impression the masters swim group was too easy, that was not my intent. I simply meant the types of swimming they focused on didn't seem to match my goal-distance. I didn't seem to be getting a balance between fast and long. We rarely had a set longer that 400y. I was concerned I wouldn't understand/learn pacing for my race swims. I do understand the need to go fast at times, I just didn't think it should be most of the time. I don't mean to suggest it wasn't helpful as it did improve my swim conditioning and confidence.
Re: Quad Cities Tri - no, this isn't one of my planned races for this year.
Mark

For those of you not watching football, I see the 2009 xterra championship in maui is on at 2 on abc  (Later today, of course, I will be watching my Vikings and the old man Brett do amazing things)
Denise

Hey there!

Hope every one had a great weekend. My mum didn't want me to pacemake after all, so she cut me loose and I ran the race at aerobic pace (trying to keep under 149HR, not always successfully ;-) ). Ended up with a decent time: 1:19:00 (17k), especially for an EXTREMELY hilly race (first 4K were murder!), however to be honest, I found the downhill parts harder on the legs, definitely gotta work on that downhill running technique (STEVE any tips for this?). Some good runners out there, I was particularly impressed by a guy who was in the 45-50 age group and finished in 57 minutes!!! Scary!

Arthur

Edited by Hepeoc 2010-01-24 4:10 PM

Awesome.

GANG!

I've been incommunicado all day, and now just here for a quick hit-and-run. I'll be back in earnest either late tonight or early tomorrow morning.

ARTHUR -

HOLY-MOLY!! I didn't know it was your 17km, I thought it was just you going along with your mom!

That sounds like a very, very fine time for a hilly course -- ya gotta be pleased with it, right?

And I do have some thoughts on downhill running, which I'll get to you soon. I have nothing original, just ideas and techniques gleaned from others. I don't feel I'm especially good on downhills, but having said that I've never made mincemeat of my quads on downhill courses; so I guess I'm ding something right.

Ice those quads! Ice those quads!

Congrats on a terrific 17km!!!

Edited by midlifeinsanity 2010-05-24 7:29 AM

DENISE and DEE -

Before Favre came to the Vikings, I was a Vikes fan of sorts. But I was never fully convinced that he was all that hard-done by Green Bay, and he certainly played heads games with poor Aaron Rodgers.

As a Patriots fan, I didn't enjoy his presence with the Jets last year. But the real kicker is that he chose to sign with the Vikings ---- which as a pretty much career Packer, he should not have done.

To my way of thinking, Favre with the Vikings is like Johnny Damon jumping the Red Sox a few years ago and signing with the Yankees. Rivalries have to transcend being a mercenary, and heree are a few things that should never-ever happen:
-- a Red Sox player signing with the Yannkess, and vice-versa
-- a Packer signing with the Vikings, and vice-versa
-- a Maple Leaf signing with the Canadians, and vice-versa
-- a Laker signing with the Celtics, and vice-versa

There are others, but those are the Big Four. And of those four, the top two seem to be the situations in which Signing With The Enemy should not be legal in any way, shape, or form.

I'm sorry to see the Jets losing to the Clots. (Typo intended.)
I want the Saints to beat the Vikings.
Either the Saints or the Vikings I want to beat the Clots.
Hell, I even want the YANKEES to beat the Clots!

DEE -

For one-legged drills? Yup! Perfectly normal, and don't hesitate to play with your gearing and/or cut back on the time for each leg. If 15" works for you, then start there!

MARK -

Thank you for the clarification -- that makes lots of sense, as you state it. No sets longer than 400y wouldn't really even get you ready for a super-sprint!

That balance between fast and long seems to be a career pursuit for me. I think I've got it for 500-750m in a race, but less so for 1500m. Curiously, I might have a better handle on it for 2000m, but that's probably juts becaiuse lots of people doing HIM aren't confident of hanging on for the distance. So relative to lots of folks, I can make a meagre attempt of speed almost amount to somthing, whereas for an oly there are more than enough people who can swim hard and fast for the 1500 or so meters.

And I'm glad you didn't have your heart set on Quad Cities!

ANNE -

I owe you, X2!

DENISE and DEE -

I am sorry for any football pain you are feeling this morning. That is a very tough way to lose - OT, and you don't even touch the ball. I'm surprised that the world allows that OT structure to stand. Even though the results don't overwhelmingly support the seeming random unfairness of it, I still go with the odds favoring the team tat wins the toss.

My solution? Just like extra innings, you play until the whole inning is done, and for football that would mean 15 minutes. Still tied? Another 15. And if it is thought that 15-minute OT periods are too long, make them 12, or 10, or 8 -- anything other than sudden death. Basketball works this way, too, so why is football so dense about this? Or is it just me?

ANNE -

NICE swim schedule coming up! If that doesn't whip you into race-ready shape, nothing will!

Back to Peterborough/Muskoka, I don't see any reason why you can't push the pace at Peterborough. It you were doing a duathlon there, then there would be some cautions, but with a low-impact aquabike? That shouldn't be cause for much damage at all!

I guess the only thing you want to avoid is Peterborough affecting your run training for Muskoka. And that brings us back to the "C" concept for Peterborough wherein it is just a training race -- maybe an aggressively-tackled one, but still, ultimately, training.

ANNE again -

As you can tell from looking at the info under my photo, I still am not Silver. This, I've got to change today. I've just been dragging my feet on it, I guess afraid that I'll spend the money and find out that the plans are in some format that I can't even begin to either access or understand. Ah, there's nothing to fear but fear itself!

Thank you for those run nubers. I will put them in the blender that passes for my brain, press "pulse", and see what materializes!

As for your question about 2 or 3 three-hour easy long rides on the road before speed work or hill training....

That seems a bit steep, and maybe not 100% essential. I can see some of the sense in it, and it might actually be the safest way to enter a season, but in my own case (and I've never even thought about this) I'd slide the times down to 2 to 2.5 hours -- maybe two rides at 2 hours, one at 2.5 hours.

Now, having said that, I've got to say that (1) in my own case, being a flatlander, I do many, many longish rides before I head up to the Gatineaus to play on the hills there, and (2) if a person lives in hills and trains in hills, then I'm not sure there is any sense in setting time goals for long rides before hill training begins.

Further thoughts....
Do people who live in flatlands spend more time doing speed work?
Do people who live in hilly areas spend less time doing speed stuff?

Even though it takes me a long time to start getting to hills, I'm much quicker to do speed work -- like early on in my initial rides outside evey spring! It may not be very sophistaticated speed work, but it's there as either tempoish stuff or bike fartleks; I definitely do not wait for the long easy miles to build up!

But, again. it probably would NOT hurt to just take one's time building our bike conditioning before attempting the more aggressive and demanding workouts. Maybe it's especially true of those who are At A Certain Age!

ANNE once more -

Forgive my denseness, but.....
The 16-week running program you created, building to 15km --- what is the "end" date for that?

I like the idea of max weekly volume being 33km, which is probably realistic for injury prevention. I'd think that 40km would be a good conservative weekly max for a HIM run, so for the 15km of Muskoka, 33km sounds about right! Well done!