Baowolf's Mentor Group- Closed (Page 46)

Mitch, sorry about the cramp, but good job toughing it out. Bet you were plenty sore after that. Even though cramps are something of a mystery, I do think potassium plays a role.

Hey Elena, good to see you! Great job on the hill repeats. You reminded me of my first attempts at those several yrs ago. I was doing a running program w/ the local running store, and those were on my plan mid-week. Nearly killed me....so I asked the coach about it and they told me that I was supposed to WALK the recoveries. Ha, I was jogging them too. Made a big difference. FWIW, I think Jay is right...the focus is on strength, not sucking wind (literally) as it seems you and I both tried to do initially.

Mike, dang, hate it when the cheese (pool) gets moved around like that. Convenience is important with swimming. Hope you can find another solution that's not too far away and has good hours.

Jay, I too enjoyed the signs! Have seen a lot of them on various courses, and a good laugh is worth a lot at certain points in a race. Glad you are getting back in the groove. No idea on the breaststroke water in the mouth thing. I don't really know how to do a proper breast stroke, feels like drown/gasp/drown/gasp to me when I've even tried it. Thanks for the encouragement on the food thing....I'm afraid I'm having to declare today yet another new day. Last night was pizza delivery since I was working and no time to cook (thin crust, but still), and hubby proudly brought home Cheetos, potato chips and French onion dip. Had a small bowl of the chips after dinner, ugh!

Steve, yes, the hay is in the barn for you. Time to obsess over bike maintenance, gear bags, leg twitches and such. Your kids will always remember these camping trips, especially the cold water, no showers, etc.

One short workout a day for me this week. Too many jobs, not enough time/energy. Got started on work early this morning on job #2 so I could hit the pool at the time it's available for lap swim (10:30-12:30), and now client needs exclusive on the system as I'm trying hit a noon deadline....sigh....

So did the sighting every 10 strokes thing for my entire 2100 yard swim today. Not graceful, but perhaps I can swim fewer yards this IM than usual. The technique I described above is the best one for me. I just need to get it a bit smoother. Ode to be a left side breather as 95% of the courses appear to have bouys on the left side (counterclockwise rotation).

Steve, you are doing good! Are you a left side breather, bi, or right?

First, I finally get my intervals in this week. Only had time for 7 versus 9. My Garmin is truly dying so didn’t get the intervals for all but they were 7:51 to 8:14 or so.

Question for all. Advantages and Disadvantages of having say a 13 mile run and having a triple of 5/5/3? I'm got my thoughts but I'd like to see what others think.

Every since April, I just been focused on recovering from PF, enjoying the run, and getting my base up while shooting for a HM PR in the fall/winter. I started adding intervals in early July and have done almost every week; I think I skipped one week due to increased volume while at the beach. Then I changed my mind about the HM and signed up for a Jan mary with the goal of slaying my last PR of 4:47 (but mainly not slacking off at the end. I want to be strong during the whole race.) Steve has been having me increase my speed and it’s gotten me off of my heels and on more on my forefoot. My runs have gone from 11mm to 10 and sometimes sub 9:30mm. Official mary training starts Monday; 18 weeks of Hal Higdon’s Advanced I plan with modifications for more intervals.

Here’s the rub. I also signed up for TN Ragnar at the end of Oct. It’s not my “A” race but can I give it an “A-“ status? I won’t be “racing” but I want to give it a really good effort and not slack on my 3 runs. And it will be in mountains. Mountains. So silly little me just looked at Ragnar training and I’m right at the point where I need to be adding doubles occasionally and some triples on alternating weekends. So today is a triple day (well, my third may be after midnight so maybe not the same day).

I took my mary training plan and then overlayed some of the Ragnar training. I considered where I am now into the mix (Injury prevention is always my first concern.) and I backed off some of the mileage the week after Ragnar. Is there anything else that I should consider? It looks doable – slightly intimidating (but isn’t it always?) – but doable. It may sacrifice some miles toward mary training but I’m hoping it will give me some strength and stamina. False hope?

But this morning on my first of the triples, I began thinking about pacing. I want to be able to complete my 5/5/3 today but I don’t want to lose too much of my newfound speed. I played it by feel this morn and was around 10:10 pace and I finished better than I started. I feel like my second will be slower but mainly because of the heat. I guess I just wanted to see what the group thought and if there are any gotchas that I didn’t consider.

Sorry for the long posts but I figured I’d give everyone food for thought.

Swam today!! Felt like a kid at Christmas. 1700 yards done. Saw a bit rusty but still held a good average pace. Fitness needs some help but it will come back. Next Sat is my 1 mile OWS race and I should be ok.

Next Saturday, Steve? If so, we may be in the water at the same time as my race is at 9 or 10

Back from 2nd 5 miler. Took the shady route - which is the hilly route. 10:30 average pace again finishing stronger. But I can already see that 3rd leg will be a beyotch.

Steve, I would love that course...strong preference for left side breathing here .

Mike, glad you found a pool! Where is your master's class meeting with their normal pool closed?

Pam, do you know specifically which Ragnar legs you will be running (elevation profiles and such?). Sounds like you are being very smart in laying out your plan. My 2 cents (exactly what it is worth) is to do ONLY enough of the doubles and triples to figure out your pacing for Ragnar. Since you are already mixing in intervals with your distance work on the Mary plan, it seems like that would carry you very well for Ragnar aside from figuring how much you can crank up the pace due to the rest between. I'm also wondering if Steve has or will suggest doing some mile intervals since you have been hammering the 800's well? Seems like those might also help prep you for the 4/4/3 legs a bit more. Not to mention hill repeats if you will be running UP the mountains during your legs .

Sad day here. Cooper, our oldest and wisest dog, went to bed (under our bed as is his preference) last night, and did not wake up this morning. He looks like he is still sleeping, head between his front paws, which makes me think he was not in any pain when he passed. We were concerned about him earlier this week and were on the edge of taking him to the vet, but he perked up the last couple of days...or so we thought. Never stopped eating, not in any obvious pain (and he would normally show us pain by shaking, not eating, etc.) no breathing problems, etc. He was 14 though and had definitely slowed down, so it was just his time to go. I'm waiting for the pet cemetery folks to pick him up now, and they will bury him alongside 5 of our other pets who have passed before him. We have mostly gone about our day as normal since there is nothing more we can do for him. Kerry & I went for a ride this morning, and then I took one of our other dogs on a walk.

Oh Carol, I'm so, so sorry!!! It's great that he went peacefully but I know it hurts and you miss him. Hugs to you, Kerry, and Katy the dog.

Hrm. I don't know enough about Ragnars to say much on that. I would think that running 3x in a day given your current mileage is overkill. It is generally preferable to run 13 miles for a long rather than break up the miles. But it is better to run more often for your shorter runs during the week. So if you are running 6x a week that would be 1x per day with a rest day. No need for doubles on the run. That should get you to like 50 miles per week. Once you start getting past 50 miles a week you can consider doing some doubles. I see triple run as an invitation to injury, especially if you haven't already been running 75+ miles a week for 4 months. The lack of recovery is gona open you up to injury with triples and even doubles if your weekly mileage isn't high enough. If you are going to do a hilly run you do need to run downhill. There for sure shouldn't be walking down hills in your hill repeats, you are going to want to do a fair amount of downhill (and uphill) running. Run down hills at a slower to moderate pace not fast. After a few months you can pick up the speed on downhills if you want to practice "falling down hills," which is the description for running down hills fast. It kind of resembles going down a mogule run skiing. Wide elbows absorbing the impact with your legs slowing you down just enough to not crash and burn, watching that footing very carefully. Anyway tell me more about what you are doing. For you to be really solid in your mary you are going to need to get up to 50-55 miles per week in your peak builds.

Alright looked some stuff up there is a plan that has a double or triple run in a single day, but to do this they are breaking their normal run for that day into half or 1/3. So if my long run for the day (weekday) is 9 miles, I could do 2x 4.5 miles or 3x 3 miles. I would not every break up a long run unless real life prevented me from completing the run in one go and then the following week I would go back to the full distance for the long run. Breaking up a run interferes with the adaptation that occurs during the run, but if your schedule is a problem you can probably split up a run once a week or whatever.

You could alternate half mile and mile repeats (one one week one the next) once your weekly mileage gets up to around 35-40 miles per week for about 3 weeks. Start off with like 2 or 3 mile repeats and again add one each week (or each other week in this case) with 800 recovery jog between them (can do 400 recover if you feel the need to really keep that HR up).

Oh and my race is on Sunday 9/22 not Saturday. So my number is 2222 on the 22nd 8). Goal finish time between 8pm and 8:30 pm pst. My first headlamp run IM.

Edited by Baowolf 2013-09-14 5:53 PM

This morning's "long" run. Mile splits 8:34, 7:44, 7:36, 7:46, 7:48. Boy it is good to not be carrying soo much fatigue. Who knows what race day will bring. Temps are supposed to start in the mid 30s and build to a blistering 60F before dropping again at dusk. It will be really odd to run an IM in temps below 95F, I will actually have to be careful to not drink too much water. Staying warm may or may not be an issue, those first 5 miles on the bike out of the lake are not going to be pleasant but they might be fast brrr.

Race temp will be in the 30's at the start? Do you get issued an ice-pick for the swim?

Pam - sorry about your dog. At least he was able to go peacefully, and at age 14, I'm sure he had a long, happy life!

I'm off to a day of kids soccer games, and a 2 hour trainer ride later since it will be dark by the time I get back.

You guys have to see this vid if the link works. This is what it takes to be FOP! I had to watch it a couple times.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo-nbnw8zSI

Ok Type B folks do not watch this next linc, type A folks watch this. This is why you train as hard as I recommend for IM, they really are not to be taken litely. Even professionals will DNF on IMs sometimes. Watch at your own risk, these are the DNF IMers.


http://youtu.be/jnqpYKx8Fvk

Edited by Baowolf 2013-09-15 11:52 PM

The first vid is much more fun to watch than the seconds, I must say. Some rough moments in that second one.

Happy to report the leg is feeling better, and next week, I'm going to start the walk/walk-jog plan Steve set out a few weeks back. Will let everyeone know how it goes. I'm also learning at this point in life, I should stretch a bit before I go running anywhere.

You and me both! Except, my PT recommends warm up a little first, then stretch, then run. Hard to have the patience to do that though.

Steve, are you going up a couple days early for the race? Will you get in a practice swim? Will it be a jump in altitude for you? Your race number will be easy to remember, and I look forward to tracking you.

Yeah, watched both videos. I'm probably the odd person out here, but my overwhelming response was feeling bad for the #2 guy in the first one...betting he worked damn hard too and by the time he saw the #1 guy, it was too late. All that effort boiling down to a few seconds difference. I guess I don't necessarily see it as one having worked harder than the other. Just one having everything come together at just the right moment. Same for those in the second video. Some were likely due to undertraining, poor pacing/nutrition/etc. choices, and for others, just not their day.

OK, so this week I should have more time overall as job #2 winds down for this month. I really need more time/effort on the bike to feel decent about this upcoming sprint. So...on my swim days this week, I will also ride...either trainer or outside. There, I said it!

Thanks for the kind words about Cooper. He was a great dog, and yes, had a wonderful life here. I found him 14 years ago, running loose on a very busy street -- S. Cooper in Arlington -- hence the name. He was very wise and watchful, and would always assess any situation with our other dogs before acting. Definitely the pack leader here, and he will be missed.

I won't be going down to Tahoe until Friday afternoon, catch the manditory athlete meeting and setup the tent. Then Sat will be getting stuff to transition areas and probably driving the bike course. I may not swim in the lake and just jog a couple miles on Sat. Mostly a run around and get everything set for the race, find food etc. The thought of a wet wetsuit at 6am with 35F air temps... not that inviting. Hrm just read a post of a guy who is a much stronger cyclist then me who did the loop and only averaged 15 mph on the bike (without doing steeper the closed off road hill)...... this lets me know that my bike guestimate may be overly optomistic and that it is now time to stop reading posts about IM Tahoe

The first video was just wow those guys are fast and ya that is what the front of the triathlon looks like. The guy who won definately had more race experience and all the training and genetic giftedness and knew exactly what he had left in the tank. The young pup had the thought I'll just dust them and do it now.... and then ran out of gas 50 yards shy of the finish line. Inpsirational for both the break away guy to be owning the race for that moment in time and for the guy who actually won, because it took digging deep to chase him down.

The second video is for two points. 1) IM is hard, one needs to respect the distance and put in the training and 2) DNF an IM is always a posibility, 140.6 miles is just that long. A bit of sand, a bike incident, a pulled muscle. All you can do is put in the time get your body fit and execute pacing and nutrition. For Tahoe staying warm may become an issue and where most of my IMs have been about staying cool. So balancing hydration will be a challenge. I will also in all likelihood be running in the dark for the marathon, so headlamp in special needs bag. So I will have a windbreaker in both my bike and run special needs bags.

This is completely the worry about the temp, wind, gear, taper, prerace freekout part of an IM that is always there.

Not sure when they are going to close out the summer groups, usually around Thanksgiving they start the winter groups. I will try to get another group going and as always all are welcome.

Edited by Baowolf 2013-09-16 2:23 PM

Steve, thanks for the advice! I should have qualified that the “triple” was a long run broken into 3 parts. You said the same thing that I feel – breaking long runs into two or 3 parts isn’t good prep for a mary. Funny, hubby and I were having that discussion and he read an article by an elite coach who has his athletes never run longer than 2 hours and they run doubles for their long run days. I said I could “almost” agree with it for IM training (almost) but not for marathon training. We had the discussion Friday night and after my triples, I still had the same opinion. I can honestly say that running 5 miles in morn, 5 miles in afternoon, and 3 miles at night is NOT like running a HM – not even close. Much easier. But the triples was good for Ragnar because it made me realize things I needed to do during Ragnar – pacing, stretching, things to pack, etc. I will do one more triple once I know my route for Ragnar.

And Steve, you are so right about the downhill running. Downhill running was one the hardest things for me to get. Over the last year, I’ve practiced a lot of downhill running. I can almost get it right...when it's not a real steep downhill....and when it's shorter.....and when I focus. I would rather run uphill rather than get a steep downhill.

Carol, we haven’t picked our legs yet. I looked and they range from one runner having 3 ez legs totaling 12.4 miles and one runner having 2 very hard and one hard leg for a total of 19.8 miles. I do NOT want those 3 ez legs and would be very disappointed if I had them. That 19.8 miles runner….. well it’s not gonna be my first choice but I would take it before the ez one. I’m hoping to get one of the runs that will total 16 to 18 miles and have one hard, one moderate, and then maybe one easy. I think it will be interesting to see how people decided which runner they will be.

Carol, are you doing ok?

Steve, love your 2222 number on the 22nd. Very, very good sign. I had to laugh when you said that you needed to stop reading anything else about IM Tahoe! Can't wait to watch you.

Crap Steve, don't watch those videos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Esp #2. Hands over your ears and sing "lalalalalala". Don't watch them.

Edited by Pink Socks 2013-09-16 5:08 PM

One thing to keep in mind with elite runners is that they are running 100 + miles a week. So with that kind of a schedule it is fine to break your long runs up. Also, an elite runner can get a 20 mile run in, in 2 hours. So basically it is a completely different beast. As a comparison at 46 and not elite, my legs start to have issues when I build past 53 miles a week. After that I need to stay at that base for a while and then build very slowly like 1 mile a week total increase. For agers it is the 20 mile run that builds that acclimation to continuing to go after your base glycogen stores are gone and you convert over to fat and sugar and whatever you are eating. You don't start that until you are 90 minutes into your run. If you break it up... no adaptation in the same way. If your base miles are 100+ you don't need the long run adaptation because your base is so bloomin thick you are get the gains from the cumulative effect of so much running. Their 5 mile runs would be like our 200 yard swim repeats 8).

100+ miles a week is mindboggling. Thats over 14 miles/day with no off day. Throw in 1 day a week of rest, it averages over 16 miles/day. Thats my commute to work! I'm going to be thrilled to get back to 15 miles/week

Steve -- Some where in this thread you posted a suggest running rehab approach, and I can't find the post. Can you repost that for me? I'm looking to start soon, and want to incorporate this into my plan. Thanks!

Mike

Hello! I'm so behind with y'all but life here is finally starting to settle into a groove. I realize transitioning to a new job, a new house and learning to fit the rest of life in is not my forte. I'm learning and that is great. The job is so very wonderful and I feel I will have great success with it. The new place is fantastic and I've had fun yard saling and doing other shopping to buy a house-full of stuff since I am starting from scratch. I won't talk about training because I'll embarrass myself, but that's okay for now.

I will catch up with previous post, but I have thought about everyone several times. So excited for Steve's race this weekend. Excited to hear about new babies and the over-all forward motion of everyone else.

Well, look who the cat dragged in! Nice to see you Samantha! Very happy to read that life is going well for you!

Carol: Very sorry for the loss of you dog Pets certainly become a part of the family and they are a big loss. My kids still talk about our Pom that passed away a few years back.

Pam: FWIW, my friend who has done relay races like you are taking on has done day/night runs to get ready for it. I think she'd do something like 3-5 in the AM and then 5-8 at night.

Mike: Bad news on the pool. I used the UMASS pool for awhile (since my wife is an employee) but I got sick of the shutdowns, breaks, etc and went out and got a family Y membership...perhaps you should think about it The Y doesn't shutdown often and if it does, you can go to another Y and use their pool.

Steve: I haven't had the courage to watch those videos...I will soon I guess. I hope you are doing minimal working out this week and taking time to make sure you have all your food, clothes, etc ready.

So real life stuff first...yesterday was the first time in over a year that I actually regained some faith in some of my coworkers. I worked down in Segregation (most of you would think of it as "isolation" based on tv/movies) with 5 guys. We had an injured guy working inside (I did this while I was recovering from my AT) and 4 guys working outside. One of the guys we worked with was forced from 11x7 onto days so the 3 of us told him he wasnt going to do much. Although the 4 of us never worked together before, we got everything done efficiently because we all worked hard. We allowed the guy who was forced to nap as he needed and watched out for anyone "not trustworthy" coming in. When that happened, we made sure he was awake. Its he way things should be in my job...sad that this is the exception but not the rule. The guy who was forced is retiring in 3 weeks and was very appreciative to all of us for taking care of him. We all complain when things go bad so I figured I'd share something good in my workplace for once

Today was a good workout day. It feels like fall here in Mass today...great weather for working out. I hit the weights hard, followed up with a 3 mile run, and finished with 6x100@10 in the pool. I was only going to do 400 in the pool today but the person next to me was ticking me off. Seemingly to me, he was purposely trying to blow by me on every lap. I've told you all more than once, I'm not a fast swimmer...I just work on endurance....and to be fair, I'm swimming after running 3 miles so my laps aren't going to be ideal anyway. So, I wasn't leaving the pool until he left first. I could tell he was gassed because everytime I'd do my 100, he'd be huffing and puffing trying to catch his breath while I'd drink my water, and do another 100. I outlasted him, did another 100 and called it a day. Whether it was a real or perceived scenario, it helped me stay motivated for the swim because I really didn't want to do it

Edit: I bought my wife's Bday gift today and got myself a little treat. The woman from Maine who is a low carber as well used these as fuel for IMLP so I figured I'd give them a shot. Here's the link....http://amritahealthfoods.com/ If anyone knows anything about them, I'd love to hear it.

Edited by medeiros13 2013-09-17 1:50 PM

Jay - glad to hear things are looking up recently. Nice of that guy to push you on your work out

Samantha -- Hey! What is happening in potato-land?

Jim - good to hear from you.

Steve -- I found the running stuff. No need to repost. I'm starting next week, I think.

A couple weeks ago I told my wife that I didn't want to do the 118 mile bike ride. She smiled and said, "that's ok you don't have to want to do it, you just have to do it."

BTW Nashbar has Michelin Pro race 4 tires at $35 ish ($40 off normal price). Unfortunately I still have the yellow ones to match my dead bike that clash with my new black and red bike, although it will make finding it in transition easier. Now where did I put my rainbow towel? Two more days until I pack. My workout for today 12 mile bike ride..... The new tires are almost worn in perfectly. The back was fine after 60 miles, the front one still has a little ridge left from the mold after 140 miles. I should really make a checklist....

The new Evade aero helmet has finally come out... but ya too late and I blew my tri toy money on extra gears for hill climbing. Maybe Santa will bring me one for next year.

Samantha, glad you are settling in to your new digs and job. Don't worry about the workouts just yet, jog a couple miles here and there, go on some hikes, refill the emotional tank and see what you want to do for offseason training. You are almost 2 months out so give it another 2-6 weeks (New Years at the latest 8)) and see what you might want to do for next year, which may just be hitting a 5k here and there. But try to at least walk a couple miles a couple times a week to keep the legs from completely regressing on ya.

For me next year will be real challenge planning for my first year of 2 IMs. I would like to jump into bike training as soon as I can to start working on getting some of that speed back, there is that one thing I have to do first on Sunday and then a little rest before that.

I am glad to see some of our folks come back out of the woodwork, I was beginning to think that it was going to be just Pam, Carol and I for the last 2 months of the group.

Edited by Baowolf 2013-09-17 3:36 PM

Samantha, Jim and Jay, great to hear from you guys!

Thank you for the kind words regarding Cooper. We're missing him greatly, and pouring lots of love into our remaining three dogs.

Jim, you nailed it with dogs ruling our lives. Glad we are not the only ones! I'm sure it's tough to get into a training groove with extra appts on top of life in general.

Samantha, so glad you are enjoying the new job and digs! Garage saling is like treasure hunting...can be rewarding, but takes a lotta time .

Jay, great story about you guys taking care of the soon to be retired fellow. So encouraging to see the good in people.

Mike, good luck on the running rehab plan! Hope you can find a pool too.

Steve, it's almost show time! You have had quite a journey in getting to the starting line. Huge victory in that. Gotta love that point where you have dropped all your stuff off in transition, and there is absolutely nothing more to do other than just goooooooo! You are almost there . Hope you have a totally awesome day on the course, and make some camping memories with your family along the way!